23
   

Israeli airstrikes in Gaza kill more than 200

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:29 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

oralloy

Anyone who, in the current situation, says:

Quote:
The Palestinians are asking for it.


... is not worth arguing with.

You simply do not have a clue.
You should read up on the situation & educate yourself.
Honestly, I don't know why I've wasted my time responding to you.
I think I'll stop wasting my time now.


I am fully read up and educated on this situation.

But if my reveling in the deaths of Palestinian civilians is upsetting to you, I'd be happy to "agree to disagree" with you on this matter. Perhaps next time we're in the same thread our views will not be as divergent on the issue at hand.

Peace.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:32 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The occupation can be justified solely on the grounds that it is to prevent the rockets.


Who said anything about justification? It's not in their strategic interests to occupy, with occupation comes responsibilities that they don't want or need.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:32 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I am fully read up and educated on this situation.


Sure you are! Laughing
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:38 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The occupation can be justified solely on the grounds that it is to prevent the rockets.


Who said anything about justification? It's not in their strategic interests to occupy, with occupation comes responsibilities that they don't want or need.


If occupation is the only way to stop the rockets, it's probably in their strategic interests to occupy.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:39 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
I am fully read up and educated on this situation.


Sure you are! Laughing


Yep. I've been following this situation quite closely for years.

I know just how evil the people of Gaza really are.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:45 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

msolga wrote:

Oralloy wrote:
I am fully read up and educated on this situation.


Sure you are! Laughing


Yep. I've been following this situation quite closely for years.

I know just how evil the people of Gaza really are.


Just out of curiosity, do you remember the peace talks in 2000? What was offered at Taba? Why the talks collapsed?

Do you remember how the Gazans reacted to 9/11?
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:47 am
@oralloy,
Why? Occupation costs them more lives than the rockets. What strategic interests are you speaking of?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 03:15 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Israel has not let Palestine import currency or goods, thus all that is aval is what Hamas has smuggled in...ya, empowering Hamas works for Israel.

There will be no intifada because the Palestinians have been too beat down......Israel will continue to beat and beat upon the Palestinians until the Arabs have finally had enough and end the abuse through military means.




What they seem to have no trouble smuggling in seems to be unlimited supplies of munitions, and nothing else.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 03:44 am
@roger,
Death toll rising rapidly, and Israel said to be deploying ground troops...seem likely to invade.

AFP http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jA3R6jn622eb6crYNlG7E8CfL43Q
Quote:
Israel warns of ground offensive as jets pound Hamas in Gaza

7 hours ago

GAZA CITY (AFP) " Israel has warned it could send ground troops into Gaza as its warplanes continued pounding Hamas targets inside the enclave where more than 270 Palestinians have been killed in just 24 hours.

In the latest international call for an end to the violence, the United Nations Security Council after an emergency session urged an immediate end to all military operations.

However Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak vowed to expand the mammoth bombing campaign, unleashed in retaliation for militant rocket fire.

"The IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) will expand and deepen its operations in Gaza as much as necessary," he told reporters before a cabinet meeting.

"We are ready for anything. If it's necessary to deploy ground forces to defend our citizens, we will do so," his spokesman quoted him as saying earlier.

Israeli television said the army had begun concentrating ground forces near the tiny Palestinian enclave, where medics said air raids have killed more than 270 people and wounded another 600 since early on Saturday.

Warplanes continued to pound the impoverished and overcrowded territory of 1.5 million as part of a mammoth campaign launched in retaliation for militant rocket and mortar fire from the Islamist-run stronghold.

Six people were killed on Sunday, medics said, as jets hit targets in northern Gaza, sending thick columns of smoke barreling into the air.

Hamas, the Islamist Palestinian movement branded a terror group by Israel and the West, remained defiant.

Its exiled leader Khaled Meshaal called in Damascus for a new Palestinian intifada, or uprising, against Israel and promised new suicide attacks. Hamas last carried out a suicide bombing against Israel in January 2005.

"We will not stand down and we will not cave in even if (the Israelis) should eradicate the Gaza Strip or kill thousands of us," Ismail Haniya, who heads the Hamas government, said in a defiant radio address.

The Israeli onslaught -- one of the bloodiest single days in the 60-year Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- has sparked massive international concern.

In New York, the UN Security Council called for an end to the violence, but without mentioning Israel or Hamas by name.

Croatia's UN Ambassador Neven Jurica read out a non-binding statement on behalf of the 15-member body that "called for an immediate halt to all violence" and on the parties "to stop immediately all military activities."

The Israeli campaign has been slammed by many Arab nations, and the Arab League is set to meet on January 2 to discuss the situation.

On Sunday, 30 Jordanian lawmakers demanded the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador over the bombing campaign.

Israel's main ally the United States has blamed Hamas "thugs" for provoking the campaign by firing rockets into the Jewish state from Gaza, and urged Israel to avoid causing civilian casualties in its bombing raids.

"These people are nothing but thugs, and so Israel is going to defend its people against terrorists like Hamas," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.

"If Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel, then Israel would not have a need for strikes in Gaza."

Amid the bombing, Barak also authorised the passage of an aid convoy into Gaza on Sunday, his spokeswoman said.

The Kerem Shalom crossing will be opened "so a convoy transporting humanitarian aid and medicine will be able to pass through."

Israel has kept Gaza largely sealed off since Hamas violently seized power there in June 2007, overrunning forces loyal to secular president Mahmud Abbas.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert pledged on Saturday that Israel will do its utmost to avert a humanitarian crisis.

"The people in Gaza do not deserve to suffer because of the killers and murderers of the terrorist organisation," he said, referring to Hamas.

Israel unleashed "Operation Cast Lead" against Hamas targets mid-morning on Saturday, with some 60 warplanes hitting more than 50 targets in just a few minutes, and Barak vowing it would continue for "as long as necessary."

Hamas responded by firing more than 70 rockets and mortar rounds into Israel, killing one man and wounding four others.

The Israeli bombing came after days of spiralling violence followed the expiry of a six-month Egyptian-mediated truce between Israel and Hamas.

it also comes less than two months ahead of Israeli snap elections called for February 10.





0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 05:32 am
roger wrote:
What they seem to have no trouble smuggling in seems to be unlimited supplies of munitions, and nothing else.

Actually, they smuggle much, much more than that. What with Israel's stiffling blockade of the Gaza Strip, which has been causing a humanitarian crisis there, the economy is based almost exclusively on smuggling and the blackmarket.
Gaza Tunnels to Egypt for IPods, Viagra Foil Blockade (Update1)
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 07:26 am
Jpost:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1230111721985

Quote:

On Friday, a Hamas spokesman made Israel the following proposal: You keep the stream of humanitarian aid and supplies flowing into Gaza and we will keep launching rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians.

It was an offer Israel had little choice but to refuse.

For weeks Israel has been imploring Hamas to stop shooting across the border, to stop tunneling in preparation for the next round of violence, and to allow our farmers to tend their fields. The Islamists responded that they were not afraid of the IDF and that they reserved the right to resist "the occupation" - meaning the existence of a Jewish state. They brazenly told Israel to get used to the idea that no amount of humanitarian gestures would stem their behavior.

At 11:30 a.m. Saturday, Israel finally told Hamas that it would not be bled, slowly, to death. Thanks to excellent intelligence and superb training, a haughty enemy was caught off-guard. Targets up and down the Strip were hit and large numbers of Hamas personnel including senior military figures were killed. Key facilities were turned into rubble; well-camouflaged equipment was destroyed.

In launching "Operation Cast Lead," Defense Minister Ehud Barak, declared, "There is a time for calm and there is a time for fighting, and now is the time for fighting." And Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, flanked by Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, said that Israel had done everything possible to avoid this escalation, but that its entreaties for quiet had been met with disdain.

The IDF's mission is not to bring down the Hamas regime, but to bring quiet to the South. In a sense we are asking Hamas to stop being Hamas. The Islamists need to decide whether they want to go down in flames or are prepared to take on the responsibilities that come with control over the Strip. They may give Israel no choice but to topple their administration.

To their credit, Israeli decision makers are avoiding the kind of bombastic rhetoric all of us came to regret in the course of the Second Lebanon War and its aftermath. Now, what ordinary Israelis demand is that their government deliver, as promised, quiet to the South. We do not expect this operation to be fast or easy. We do expect it to succeed.

Israelis must unite and be vigilant. Regrettably, we've already seen rioting among some east Jerusalem Palestinians. The possibility of disturbances among our Arab citizens cannot be discounted. Hamas rockets may reach targets heretofore thought to be beyond enemy range; their threats to launch suicide attacks must be taken with utmost seriousness. And Diaspora Jews also need be on alert.

ON A quiet post-Christmas weekend, the events in Gaza have captured world attention. From an unsympathetic foreign media, we are already hearing complaints that Israel's retaliation is "disproportionate" and a form of "collective punishment." That over 200 Palestinians have been killed compared to only one Israeli leads some journalists to conclude that Israel is inherently in the wrong. One British news anchor wondered why her government had not already demanded that Israel halt its operation. There was a grudging understanding that Hamas uses Palestinian non-combatants as human shields, along with an unreasonable demand that Israel magically find a way not to harm any of them.

The formula for purchasing the affection of those who suffer from moral relativism is sickeningly clear: if one Jew is killed, we get very little piety. If, heaven forbid, an Israeli kindergarten was to take a direct hit - Israel might, temporarily, gain the sympathy of news anchors from Paris to London to Madrid.

At that price we would rather forgo their sympathy.

Nevertheless, we expect our diplomats to work 24/7 to make Israel's case to the international community. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has begun that process. In an English-language address she said, "Enough is enough" - Israel would not continue to absorb rockets, mortars and bullets without retaliating.

At this newspaper, we wonder how an international community that can't bring itself to explicitly support Israel's operation against the most intransigent of Muslim fanatics expects to play a positive role in facilitating peace in this region.

Hamas must be stopped. And the civilized world must help stop it.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 01:35 pm
Robert Gentrel wrote:
If Israel wants to maintain its identity as a Jewish state and a democracy it is in their interest to resolve the territorial issues through a two-state solution and not to prolong the conflict.


It is precisely because Israel insists on being an ethnocentric state--adding the term 'democratic' to it merely makes it an oxymoron--that Israel will continue to be a necessarily discriminatory and oppressive state towards its Arab population and the Palestinians in the Occupied and soon to be re-occupied Territories. It will continue to refuse the Palestinians' number one grievance, the Right of Return, and the international call to honor that right as expressed through UN resolution 194, article 11 in order to maintain a demographic majority of Jews in Israel all the while strictly managing it's minority Arab population. It's top political leaders publicly mull the possibility of some sort of population transfer of its non-Jewish citizens were a two-state solution ever to materialize. Those are not the workings of a truly democratic state, rather they are the schemes of a repressive supremacist state.
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 02:01 pm
@InfraBlue,
I disagree with your assessment. I think Israel has legitimate demographic concerns in this conflict.

Israel doesn't have to want to be a "repressive supremacist state" to be concerned with an Arab majority in their democracy, they just have to be concerned about their country existing at all.

If an Arab majority were to exist in Israel, well it wouldn't even be called "Israel" for very long, and I suspect that there'd be some attempts by the majority to oppress the minority.

These are legitimate concerns for Israel, and it's unreasonable to expect them to not want to prevent the extinction of their nation through a hostile Arab majority.
Fountofwisdom
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 02:49 pm
I get annoyed by this: 2 wrongs do not make a right: if someone is firng rockets at you: apprehend the wrongdoers: bombing random buildings and murdering innocent people doesnt help.
It is such a simple concept: because we refuse to do the right thing: which would be to stop supporting genocide by Israel: the logic is the same as used by Al qaeda to justify 9-11. America was hurting us: therefore we will hurt America.
No one condemned Israel for dropping over a MILLION cluster bombs in Lebanon: which will do nothing to bring peace.
It is a scandal that we are bank rolling this regime. I can't understand how anyone can even try to justify indiscriminate killing.
My family are originally from London which was bombed daily by the Nazis during the second world war. People who get bombed become more bitter and resolute.





roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 03:33 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Do you remember how the Gazans reacted to 9/11?



Funny, I was just thinking of that.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 03:55 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Israel's demographic concerns are precisely the root of its necessary oppressive nature.

Israel doesn't have to want to be a repressive supremacist state, it merely is a repressive supremacist state as it pursues it's ethnocentric raison d'etre, a state for Jews, in the face of the repression of it's non-Jewish aboriginal population and its descendants.

What would behoove all involved, including the international community, is the implementation of a system of government that would insure that the majority does not oppress the minority in that state. Something like that was envisioned in the UN's resolution 181 which the state of Israel claims as its existential legal sanction.

The country would continue to exist no matter what the country may be called. Repression in the name of logomachies is not democratic nor is it particularly humanitarian.

Of course, it's up to the Palestinians as to whether they'd choose to compromise their right as afforded by the UN's resolution 194.

As it now stands, the minority is oppressing the majority in Israel/Palestine.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 04:57 pm
latest reports are that Israel is attempting to weaken popular support for Hamas....force the palestinians to turn away from Hamas. This is a direct assault on the principles of democracy, it is up to the palistinains to decide who they want to represent them, it is none of Israel's business. Waging a military campaign to effect political choice of another peoples is highly offensive behaviour.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 07:54 pm
Some people say that time is on the side of the Arabs, since the Israeli Arabs have a higher birth rate than the Israeli Jews. That means to me that Jewish Israelis understand that there needs to be a two-state solution, so a Jewish Israel will not be out-populated by its Arab population. The fly in the ointment is Hamas' inability to accept Israel's right to exist. And since Hamas was democratically elected, I believe Israel is also sending a message to Gaza voters, that regardless of the nice social services that Hamas delivers to the Gaza population, the inability to accept Israel's right to exist makes them not what you want as your leaders.

The airstrikes by Israel may just be the first taste of bitter medicine. If tanks roll through the streets of Gaza, the level of anger goes up by what? A power of 10, mathematically speaking?

Israel is going nowhere, and Hamas cannot accept that reality. So, who is causing the problem?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 01:20 am
I found this interesting reading yesterday. From the BBC:


Quote:
ISRAEL'S MIXED MOTIVES FOR STRIKES:

"..........

Election looms

So why is Israel acting now and with such force?

Does it really believe it can stop the rocket fire from Gaza when previous Israeli governments have tried and failed, using every military means?

Israel's prime minister says that is his objective: to protect Israeli citizens living close to the Gaza border.

To achieve this, his defence minister, Ehud Barak, said Israel would continue, widen and intensify its Gaza operation.

But Israel's politicians are pursuing a parallel campaign, too - an electoral one.

Israel holds parliamentary elections in just over a month's time.

The Israeli public has a generally low opinion about how their government has handled what they call "Hamastan" - Hamas-controlled Gaza.

Until it started talking tough, the hawkish opposition leader, Binyamin Netanyahu, was leading in the polls. Now the gap has narrowed.


Undoubtedly, Israel's military has also been keen to destroy Hamas's weapons and the rocket launchers in Gaza.

There has been talk of a possible wide-scale, military invasion by Israel since Hamas took internal control of Gaza 18 months ago.

It is not clear that is where Israel is now heading.

There is little appetite in Israel's political circles for its soldiers to come home in body bags but military sources have suggested Israel may return to launching repeated, limited incursions in Gaza.

"We don't want Hamas to have a moment's peace," said one source.

Obama factor

It is also possible that Israel has decided to act against Hamas now, during the last days of a friendly Bush administration in the United States.

The United States is arguably the only outside power Israel deeply cares about. President-elect Barack Obama is seen in Israel as being more sympathetic to the Palestinians.

Later on Saturday, there were vows of more violence from Israel and Hamas.

Yet, up until a week ago, there was a shaky truce in place between the two sides. It is possible that, as quickly as this situation has flared up, it could settle again, if the key players believe it to be in their interests.

For now, though, the streets on both sides of the Gaza border remain eerily quiet, with Israelis and Gazans there at home with their families, fearful of what tomorrow might bring.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801657.stm
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2008 01:55 am
Quote:
But they were also insisting that they did not intend to reoccupy the coastal strip of 1.5 million Palestinians or to overthrow the Hamas government there.

This is because whatever might replace Hamas " anarchy, for example " could in fact be worse for Israel’s security. So the goal, as stated by a senior military official, is “to stop the firing against our civilians in the south and shape a different and new security situation there.”

This means another peace treaty with Hamas, but one that has more specific terms than the one that ended 10 days ago. Such a concrete goal, however, should not obscure the fact that Israel has a larger concern " it worries that its enemies are less afraid of it than they once were, or should be. Israeli leaders are calculating that a display of power in Gaza could fix that.

“In the cabinet room today there was an energy, a feeling that after so long of showing restraint we had finally acted,” said Mark Regev, spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, speaking of the weekly government meeting that he attended.

Mark Heller, a senior researcher at the Institute for National Security Studies at Tel Aviv University, said that that energy reflected the deep feeling among average Israelis that the country had to regain its deterrent capacity.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/middleeast/29assess.html?hp

yet another "analysis" of what is going on. The Journalists don't know WTF Israel thinks it is doing, I wonder if Israel does??
 

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