23
   

Israeli airstrikes in Gaza kill more than 200

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 12:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Nice to see you too.

Perhaps we come here for different reasons. For me the pleasure is in encountering different perspectives and points of view. Occasionally I learn something new! I'm not above mere arguing - as you know, but it was the endless invective and name-calling that led me to take a holiday from the site for a while. I think that stuff enlightens no one and offers no rational satisfactions I can appreciate.


Sure; but then again, neither do naked assertions of truth, such as the poster I originally addressed is fond of doing.

Imagine if I merely answered every post I disagree with by stating 'no, you're completely wrong.' And refusing to provide supporting arguments as to why.


I've provided supporting evidence every time I've been confronted with a post that merits the effort of providing it.

If you are dissatisfied by the fact that your posts don't merit a more serious response, perhaps you should endeavor to post something meaningful.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 12:53 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foofie wrote:
If one believes in one's assertions then they are valid for that person. It is like arguing, I believe, with a bible believing Christian; they quote chapter and verse as to why they are correct. So, I believe, one cannot argue with a bible believing Christian about religion. One cannot argue with many Zionists, since they may also quote the bible (Old Testament). I do not know what motivates Oralloy's posts; however, the only anti-Israel argument I have seen on this forum is based on the horrors of war (paraphrasing Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now), and the opinion is that Israel has no right to be the cause of that horror.

You do appreciate the reality that the U.S. has a military. If a country has a military, how does it avoid the horrors of war? A country that will not fight a war, I believe, is eventually taken over by a stronger, more aggressive nation. Nature abhores a vacuum.


A retreat to the 'might makes right' argument is a sign of failure.


Nah. Sometimes the only way to get the bad guys to leave you alone is to use massive violence against them.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
There are other methods of dealing with disagreements besides force or the threat thereof; and in fact these methods often work much better than force.


Often, maybe.

But sometime they do not work at all. In those cases people have to fall back to violence (if they want to survive).
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 12:53 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
When was the determination made that Jews 'should have a homeland?'


No determination. And no should.

The Jews have a homeland. Period.




Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why was that 'homeland' determined to be in the middle of their sworn enemies? Who the hell thought that would be a good idea?


No one "determined" the location of their homeland. Their homeland is the same place it has been for thousands of years.

Their homeland is surrounded by their enemies because those enemies invaded, and have not (yet) been driven out.




Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why do they deserve a homeland, but other groups do not?


Who said other groups don't?




Cycloptichorn wrote:
The inconsistencies with the creation of Israel are unanswered to this day; it is not a product of logic but of emotion and a desire on the part of the US and Europe to avoid having to deal with Jewish refugees that they didn't want. It has become the US' proxy in the region and truly serves as our cats-paw; do not pretend that Israel exists for something as silly as providing a 'homeland' to a group of people.


They are there because it is their ancient homeland. They aren't going to leave (and they have the nukes to annihilate anyone who tries to make them leave).

Better get used to them being there.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 01:11 am
@oralloy,
You're making it up as you go, oralloy! Never let a few historical facts get in the way of a good story! Wink
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 11:04 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
You're making it up as you go, oralloy!


Nope. I stick to defending the facts.

(When you stick to defending the facts, you find there is no need to make anything up.)



msolga wrote:
Never let a few historical facts get in the way of a good story! Wink


When you are on the same side as the facts, it turns out that the facts don't actually get in your way.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 11:30 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

When was the determination made that Jews 'should have a homeland?' Why was that 'homeland' determined to be in the middle of their sworn enemies? Who the hell thought that would be a good idea? Why do they deserve a homeland, but other groups do not? If it turned out that your home was on a Native American former homeland - and if you live on the East Coast it probably was - would you quietly suffer your removal from that land?

The inconsistencies with the creation of Israel are unanswered to this day; it is not a product of logic but of emotion and a desire on the part of the US and Europe to avoid having to deal with Jewish refugees that they didn't want. It has become the US' proxy in the region and truly serves as our cats-paw; do not pretend that Israel exists for something as silly as providing a 'homeland' to a group of people.

Cycloptichorn


Well, thank you for your honesty. You question whether Jews should have a homeland. That is neat algebraically, since you reduced the discussion to its least common denominator, so to speak.

Jews should have a homeland, no larger than NJ (Israel), as reparations for two-thousand years of Christian persecution in Europe, and 1400 or so years of second class citizenship is Moslem lands.

WHETHER THE U.S. AND EUROPE WANTED JEWISH WWII REFUGEES, IS A RED-HERRING. THE FACT IS, MANY OF THOSE REFUGEES DID NOT WANT TO LIVE AMONGST THE WWII EUROPEANS/AMERICANS, OR THE PROGENY OF THAT WWII GENERATION. I believe, you might be making the mistake of thinking Jews are a commodity and can be shuffled here or there, and they should have no preferences, as long as no one relights the ovens?

Also, may I assume you never heard of the mid-1950's movie, Gentleman's Agreement? In its day, that movie was applauded by liberals of the time, since it depicted how in a hospital, only the Christian interns would be mentored, while a Jewish intern would either "sink or swim," based on his own abilities. It was applauded, since it showed American society's insidious anti-Semitism of the day. Anyway, even in our very nice country, that has just elected a Black President, Jews are still social pariahs in many circles, just as other ethnic groups are. However other ethnic groups have homelands to go to (except African-Americans). So, since Jews should be, in my opinion, no less of humanity than most of the other ethnic groups in America, I just think Jews should have a homeland, just in case a Jew might have had his/her fill, so to speak, of the Gentile culture in the U.S.

You, I believe, might be of a Christian heritage, regardless of current participation, and perhaps very much enjoy the Christmas season, the Easter holiday, All Saint Hallow's Eve (Halloween), and feel very comfortable with all the tatooed people in summer, or the continual portrayal of America's history as a reflection of its Christian roots. This does not bother me; however, being a secular Jew, I would like to believe that more ethnic/religious Jews would have the option to go somewhere where the culture is "Jewish."

To better understand Israel, you should, in my opinion, add to your thinking the possibility, that for some Jews, Israel is a way of snubbing a world that had no learning curve in toleration over two-thousand years.

Apparently, there are good people in this world that understand that thought, and do support Israel, simply because they understand that since the western world borrowed the Jew's concept of monotheism, and borrowed their bible, and borrowed their anti-Roman zealot rabbi (Jesus), they sort of owe these people a small plot of land.

I notice that you do not answer all points in my replies to you. That is O.K.

By the way, the ongoing accusation on these Gaza threads, that Israel is performing genocide, is false, since if Israel wanted to perform genocide, they could do a lot better job. They are fighting an enemy, and the horror of war results in innocent deaths. And, since we may not be getting even-handed reporting, I cannot believe either side. Time will likely give us all a better picture of what did occur.

Also, to answer your analogy that I would have to leave my area, if it was ceded to Native Americans, is exactly what I would have to do. If you are aware of the changing demographics of urban areas, then you would agree that in so many cities, one or another group departed, after the neighborhood reached a "tipping point" where the neighborhood was no longer the neighborhood of yesteryear. It has been called "white flight," and reflects the civil way to deal with new neighbors that one chooses to not accept. No war, no fighting; yes, just move on. That changing demographic concern was avoided in Europe, historically. The ghetto/or pale of settlement (in Czarist Russia) prevented the "nice" neighborhoods from changing.

I do not expect you to give credence to anything I have stated. You might be focussing on your own thoughts, and what you may believe is the complete correctness of them?

Lastly, why do you sign every thread with your typed forum name?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 11:52 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

When was the determination made that Jews 'should have a homeland?' Why was that 'homeland' determined to be in the middle of their sworn enemies? Who the hell thought that would be a good idea? Why do they deserve a homeland, but other groups do not? If it turned out that your home was on a Native American former homeland - and if you live on the East Coast it probably was - would you quietly suffer your removal from that land?

The inconsistencies with the creation of Israel are unanswered to this day; it is not a product of logic but of emotion and a desire on the part of the US and Europe to avoid having to deal with Jewish refugees that they didn't want. It has become the US' proxy in the region and truly serves as our cats-paw; do not pretend that Israel exists for something as silly as providing a 'homeland' to a group of people.

Cycloptichorn


Well, thank you for your honesty. You question whether Jews should have a homeland. That is neat algebraically, since you reduced the discussion to its least common denominator, so to speak.

Jews should have a homeland, no larger than NJ (Israel), as reparations for two-thousand years of Christian persecution in Europe, and 1400 or so years of second class citizenship is Moslem lands.


No. I don't believe in reparations. Modern people do not deserve to be rewarded for the negative things which have happened to their people in the past. I don't think any group in the world deserves reparations. The rest of your post is sort of meaningless from this point on, because your initial premise is faulty.
Quote:

WHETHER THE U.S. AND EUROPE WANTED JEWISH WWII REFUGEES, IS A RED-HERRING. THE FACT IS, MANY OF THOSE REFUGEES DID NOT WANT TO LIVE AMONGST THE WWII EUROPEANS/AMERICANS, OR THE PROGENY OF THAT WWII GENERATION. I believe, you might be making the mistake of thinking Jews are a commodity and can be shuffled here or there, and they should have no preferences, as long as no one relights the ovens?


Who gives a **** where they wanted to live? It wasn't our responsibility to provide them with a brand-new country, and one that has created a shitload of trouble for us and cost us a ton of money.

Only you are suffering under the misapprehension that countries in Europe and the US created Israel out of some sort of sense of sentimentality, or the 'goodness' of their hearts. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Allies at the end of WW2 tried to solve two problems with one action and the effects of this decision have directly led to the violence we see today.

Quote:

Also, may I assume you never heard of the mid-1950's movie, Gentleman's Agreement? In its day, that movie was applauded by liberals of the time, since it depicted how in a hospital, only the Christian interns would be mentored, while a Jewish intern would either "sink or swim," based on his own abilities. It was applauded, since it showed American society's insidious anti-Semitism of the day. Anyway, even in our very nice country, that has just elected a Black President, Jews are still social pariahs in many circles, just as other ethnic groups are. However other ethnic groups have homelands to go to (except African-Americans). So, since Jews should be, in my opinion, no less of humanity than most of the other ethnic groups in America, I just think Jews should have a homeland, just in case a Jew might have had his/her fill, so to speak, of the Gentile culture in the U.S.


More 'shoulds' without much logic to back them up. Tell me, the Palestinians: do they deserve a 'homeland?' It is in the exact same area you consider to be the Jewish homeland. How do you plan on solving this problem?

And, please save the antisemitism arguments. Please. It is a real thing but no worse nowdays than what many other ethnic groups go through; and it certainly hasn't prevented Jews from achieving fabulous wealth and influence at the top levels of government, business, and the art world.

Quote:

You, I believe, might be of a Christian heritage, regardless of current participation, and perhaps very much enjoy the Christmas season, the Easter holiday, All Saint Hallow's Eve (Halloween), and feel very comfortable with all the tatooed people in summer, or the continual portrayal of America's history as a reflection of its Christian roots. This does not bother me; however, being a secular Jew, I would like to believe that more ethnic/religious Jews would have the option to go somewhere where the culture is "Jewish."


So what? I would like to believe a lot of things. This is not a determinative reason why we should be making policy. It's a sentimental opinion.

Quote:

To better understand Israel, you should, in my opinion, add to your thinking the possibility, that for some Jews, Israel is a way of snubbing a world that had no learning curve in toleration over two-thousand years.

Apparently, there are good people in this world that understand that thought, and do support Israel, simply because they understand that since the western world borrowed the Jew's concept of monotheism, and borrowed their bible, and borrowed their anti-Roman zealot rabbi (Jesus), they sort of owe these people a small plot of land.


Nobody owes Jews or Israelis anything. It's fair to say that the Jewish people did not invent monotheism or their bible out of altruism; in fact, it has consistently been a part of the chip on the shoulder of the 'chosen people' of God for some time.

If Israel is into 'snubbing' the world, why do they deserve our money? Our surplus military parts? The truth is that they serve as our front-line soldier in a troubled region, and that's why we support Israel; not out of some sense of debt., Laughing

Quote:

I notice that you do not answer all points in my replies to you. That is O.K.


Usually most of your points are not worth responding to, as they are not well thought out logically. In this same post, you are resorting to emotional appeals and protestations of how the world 'should' be. This is not worth much argument, because I can't convince you that your opinion of what 'should' be is wrong; this is why political and global determinations need to be built up out of something stronger than a sense of what 'should' be right, which changes from person to person.

I am only answering point by point out of courtesy in this case, because you specifically mentioned it.


Quote:

By the way, the ongoing accusation on these Gaza threads, that Israel is performing genocide, is false, since if Israel wanted to perform genocide, they could do a lot better job. They are fighting an enemy, and the horror of war results in innocent deaths. And, since we may not be getting even-handed reporting, I cannot believe either side. Time will likely give us all a better picture of what did occur.


I do not claim that Israel is trying to perform genocide. They instead are trying to force the Palestinians to get fed up and leave the area, so that the Jews can have the area. This is exactly the plan of your Zionist politicians in Israel and the ever-expanding settlements in the West Bank.
Quote:

Also, to answer your analogy that I would have to leave my area, if it was ceded to Native Americans, is exactly what I would have to do. If you are aware of the changing demographics of urban areas, then you would agree that in so many cities, one or another group departed, after the neighborhood reached a "tipping point" where the neighborhood was no longer the neighborhood of yesteryear. It has been called "white flight," and reflects the civil way to deal with new neighbors that one chooses to not accept. No war, no fighting; yes, just move on. That changing demographic concern was avoided in Europe, historically. The ghetto/or pale of settlement (in Czarist Russia) prevented the "nice" neighborhoods from changing.


I do not find this to be compelling. You are presuming that the body of governance which is taking your land is one that you consider legitimate. If you did not, you would not peacefully leave.

Thank you, however, for sort of confirming what the actual goal is here; Palestinian flight. That's the eventually hopeful solution for Zionists; that the Pals will just give up and leave. It's not genocide but it is a half-century of oppression that you should be ashamed of.

Quote:

I do not expect you to give credence to anything I have stated. You might be focussing on your own thoughts, and what you may believe is the complete correctness of them?


Why would I not give credence to what you say? I think you are wrong, but not a liar.

Quote:

Lastly, why do you sign every thread with your typed forum name?


I've signed everything I've ever written, I don't see how this is any different.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 11:54 am
@oralloy,
Like I said, Oralloy. Tautology of fail.

Yaknow the entirety of Israel isn't that large; their nukes may not do them as much good as you seem to think. The concept that they can nuke their problems away is foolish, but not unexpected coming from someone such as yourself who has only a tenuous grasp of cause and effect and a major deficit in your understanding of military and political strategy.

Cycloptichorn
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 12:21 pm
Foofie wrote:
Jews should have a homeland, no larger than NJ (Israel), as reparations for two-thousand years of Christian persecution in Europe, and 1400 or so years of second class citizenship is Moslem lands.


Foofie, your case is only valid to those who actually persecuted the Jewish people. As far as the living (and the dead) people of today, they're totally not responsible and 50% of those (Palestanian women and children) do not even know your peoples history. You cannot hold the worlds Christian and Moslem people responsible for the crimes of their forefathers.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 01:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Like I said, Oralloy. Tautology of fail.


For you to react so childishly to me posting the truth, you must have a pretty severe reaction to seeing it posted.

No honest person would have such a strong aversion to seeing the truth posted.




Cycloptichorn wrote:
Yaknow the entirety of Israel isn't that large; their nukes may not do them as much good as you seem to think.


The size of Israel does not have any bearing on the ability of their nuclear weapons to destroy a target.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
The concept that they can nuke their problems away is foolish,


Nope. The concept of strategic deterrence is quite sound.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
but not unexpected coming from someone such as yourself who has only a tenuous grasp of cause and effect and a major deficit in your understanding of military and political strategy.


You shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own ignorance.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 01:25 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

You shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own ignorance.


I don't.

Cycloptichorn
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 01:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
You shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own ignorance.


I don't.

Cycloptichorn


Liar.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 01:30 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote :

Quote:
The concept of strategic deterrence is quite sound.


i assume that many nations may want to adopt such "strategic deterrence" .
that's along the lines of another a2k'er who believes that the way to reduce crime is for everyone to carry a concealed weapon - if i'm not completely mistaken .
hbg
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 05:15 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The concept of strategic deterrence is quite sound.


i assume that many nations may want to adopt such "strategic deterrence" .
that's along the lines of another a2k'er who believes that the way to reduce crime is for everyone to carry a concealed weapon - if i'm not completely mistaken .
hbg


Only 8 countries in the world have not given up (voluntarily) their right to have nuclear weapons.

All 8 of those countries (including Israel) already have nukes.


As for concealed weapons, data showing that they reduce crime is murky, and there is a bit of controversy over what it really means.

It is crystal clear though that concealed weapons do not increase crime or make it worse. And free people have the right to defend themselves.

The more concealed weapons, the better.

---

Actually, there are two ways Israel's nukes will help. In addition to the strategic deterrence I already mentioned, they've apparently "acquired" American designs for an atomic artillery shell with a yield just under a kiloton.

Such shells would be an excellent way of destroying any invading armies that they could not handle conventionally.
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 05:54 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote :

Quote:
And free people have the right to defend themselves.

The more concealed weapons, the better.


glad to see your evaluation .

And free people have the right to defend themselves.

The more concealed atomic weapons , the better ???

btw i believe those nations that have signed the non-proliferation treaty are free to renounce the treaty anytime ... just like people currently not carrying a concealed weapon , are free to decide anytime to carry a concealed weapon .
hbg


Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 07:03 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Who gives a **** where they wanted to live? It wasn't our responsibility to provide them with a brand-new country, and one that has created a shitload of trouble for us and cost us a ton of money.

More 'shoulds' without much logic to back them up. Tell me, the Palestinians: do they deserve a 'homeland?' It is in the exact same area you consider to be the Jewish homeland. How do you plan on solving this problem?

So what? I would like to believe a lot of things. This is not a determinative reason why we should be making policy. It's a sentimental opinion.


Cycloptichorn


Yes, I picked specific paragraphs above, because they reflect, in my opinion, what you say I am doing. Meaning they are "shoulds" according to you. The shoulds I refer to are just the "shoulds" of a world attitude to a Jewish homeland. The reality is that Israel exists today. You actually are believing, I think, that the Palestineans "should" have a homeland where Israel actually exists.

No more policy "shoulds," need to be made. The U.S. government is an ally of Israel, and until that changes there is no "should."

Also, the solution that I read that makes a lot of sense is here, by John Bolton the ex-ambassador to the UN:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html

In other words, the Palestinean people can stay where they are, but will be under the ultimate hegemoney of either Egypt or Jordan, if I understand this article. I think it reflects a win-win situation. Mind you, the term Palestinean people is like saying Pakistani people. Until the nation of Pakistan was declared, they were Muslim Indians. Tell me when there was a Palestine? Did the Ottoman Empire call that area Palestine, and was it inhabited by Palestineans? Perhaps; however, most importantly did they not live under the hegemony of the Ottoman Turks!

Anyway, Israel exists, or there may be Martians in Gaza.

Wake up and smell the chicken soup (with matzoh balls).
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 07:19 pm
@Zippo,
Zippo wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Jews should have a homeland, no larger than NJ (Israel), as reparations for two-thousand years of Christian persecution in Europe, and 1400 or so years of second class citizenship is Moslem lands.


Foofie, your case is only valid to those who actually persecuted the Jewish people. As far as the living (and the dead) people of today, they're totally not responsible and 50% of those (Palestanian women and children) do not even know your peoples history. You cannot hold the worlds Christian and Moslem people responsible for the crimes of their forefathers.


What you say is correct; however, Israel did not get its statehood from the non-guilty. It got its statehood from those that had a not too nice history relating to the Jewish people. Why? Simple. The Ottoman Empire lost WWI, and Britain got to play Monopoly with the Middle East.

But, if people want to now play "backsies" or "do over," Israel, and its supporters are not willing to play. Israel was made a state, under the UN auspices, and regardless if people think the concept of a Jewish state is anachronistic, or whatever, it is here. You know, like the chant of gays during a gay pride parade. "We're here, we're qu..."

The analogy may have some insight to the attitude of those westerners that are anti-Zionist, since much of what is being said, I believe, is that in today's 21st century politics, a state dedicated to Jews is not normal politics, and is an abomination. Sort of like what some conservatives say about gays. Notice that in some instances the liberal that is pro-gay, can also be anti-Zionist, yet Zionism is deviating from the normal/usual mode of statehood, like gays are deviating from the normal/usual mode of sexuality.

By the way, how many Jews and Christians will be living in any Palestinean state, whether it is an autonomous state, or perhaps an independent territory under the ultimate hegemony of a larger state (Egypt, Jordan?).
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 03:23 pm
@Foofie,
The analogy you are attempting between Homosexuals and the Zionist state is inept. Homosexuality does not necessarily oppress and discriminate against anyone. The Zionist state in order to exist necessarily discriminates and oppresses the Palestinian people.
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 04:49 pm
Quote -- Infrablue
The analogy you are attempting between Homosexuals and the Zionist state is inept. Homosexuality does not necessarily oppress and discriminate against anyone. The Zionist state in order to exist necessarily discriminates and oppresses the Palestinian people.-- Unquote

Also the Palestinian state in order to exist does not need to discriminate or oppress the Zionist state
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 04:54 pm
Unless of course... Your aim is to remove them all, by whatever means available.
0 Replies
 
 

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