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Israeli airstrikes in Gaza kill more than 200

 
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 04:58 pm
By the way -- I am not a Jew or a Christian, have no God's or Goddesses.. But do have a large family who I worship.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 06:30 pm
tenderfoot wrote:

Infrablue wrote:

The analogy you are attempting between Homosexuals and the Zionist state is inept. Homosexuality does not necessarily oppress and discriminate against anyone. The Zionist state in order to exist necessarily discriminates and oppresses the Palestinian people.


Also the Palestinian state in order to exist does not need to discriminate or oppress the Zionist state.


Quote:
Unless of course... Your aim is to remove them all, by whatever means available.

What is required in Israel/Palestine is a single, bi-national state, pluralistic and egalitarian established for the benefit of all of the inhabitants therein. It seems that an outside entity would be required to implement and enforce the law there, an idea that was promulgated in the UN's resolution 181, the very resolution that the state of Israel claims as it's international legal sanction.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 09:08 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

The analogy you are attempting between Homosexuals and the Zionist state is inept. Homosexuality does not necessarily oppress and discriminate against anyone. The Zionist state in order to exist necessarily discriminates and oppresses the Palestinian people.


Oh; you mean a heterosexual has an equal chance as a homosexual in the fashion industry?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 09:10 pm
@tenderfoot,
tenderfoot wrote:

By the way -- I am not a Jew or a Christian, have no God's or Goddesses.. But do have a large family who I worship.


You might not be a Jew or a Christian, or believer in any deity; however, you are a Gentile, by virtue of not being a Jew. That might align you with a (Gentile) culture (society), regardless if you are aware of such alignment. It is called sociology.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 09:12 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

What is required in Israel/Palestine is a single, bi-national state, pluralistic and egalitarian established for the benefit of all of the inhabitants therein.


This is how the NYC subway works. For $2, one gets to ride on the subway with an equal chance for a seat. The rest of the world does not seem to work this way.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 03:47 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Do you remember how the Gazans reacted to 9/11?

Funny, I was just thinking of that.


I see this event referenced a lot. Based on the single video of the Palestinians cheering our misfortune I see many comments on the internet justifying whatever happens to them (not that either of you in particular feel this way).

But that's just so simplistic, that way Palestinians could say the same about Israelis. With this much animosity there is bound to be ugly displays of happiness at the violence inflicted on the opposing sides.

In this current conflict, there are some Israelis who are climbing up on hills to have picnics and watch the bombs fall on Gaza. They cheer on the violence against Palestinians and advocate that they be wiped of the ground:

roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 04:16 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert. This time, I took the time to download the video. Don't tell me you saw a single smile or heard a rah rah rah! Not even in Hebrew. No celebration; only concern. I'm going to confess something. If there were a war going on within sight and hearing of Farmington, I would be concerned, too.

Okay, I heard a comment in English to the effect they should be wiped off the ground. You've never heard this from Hamas, or the president of Iran? This bears no similarity to the video after 9/11 at all, and at that time, no Palestinian had family members engaged in combat against an enemy, unless you are counting guys wearing exploding vests. You're comparing apples to bathtubs here.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 04:43 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
Don't tell me you saw a single smile or heard a rah rah rah! Not even in Hebrew. No celebration; only concern.


Going to picnic and watch the bombs fall while advocating razing Gaza is celebratory to me. Just because they aren't dancing and smiling it's not the same? It's just more sophisticated versions of the same thing.

Quote:
Okay, I heard a comment in English to the effect they should be wiped off the ground. You've never heard this from Hamas, or the president of Iran? This bears no similarity to the video after 9/11 at all, and at that time, no Palestinian had family members engaged in combat against an enemy, unless you are counting guys wearing exploding vests. You're comparing apples to bathtubs here.


You can find Israelis making just the same kind of comments about Palestinians and my point is that only one side gets all the attention and censure.

If it's enough for Americans to consider them enemies and to shape the PR of this conflict then I think it's worth pointing out that there is a strong element of Israeli society that wants to push Palestinians "into the sea" as well.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 04:56 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Only one side gets all the attention? Sure.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 05:01 pm
@roger,
Israel is criticized frequently for military actions but receives little attention to her own fundamentalists who call for violence. Popular perception is of Palestinians as religious fanatics hell bent on Israel's destruction while criticism of Israel is largely portrayed as merely inordinately hawkish, ignoring the religious fundamentalists and failure to recognize the Palestinian's right to exist on Israel's side.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 05:08 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Then just possibly Hamas and a few more Arab countries might consider acknowledging Israel's right to exist. Ummm?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 05:11 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Then just possibly Hamas and a few more Arab countries might consider acknowledging Israel's right to exist. Ummm?


Surely that knife cuts both ways...

Besides, no country has a 'right to exist.' It's a stupid phrase to begin with, and I have no idea how anyone thought it was appropriate for this situation.

Cycloptichorn
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 05:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Absolutely, it cuts both ways. Let's call that an objective. So far as stupid goes, maybe not, if you live in a country that has neighbors like Iran and Syria.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 05:42 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Absolutely, it cuts both ways. Let's call that an objective. So far as stupid goes, maybe not, if you live in a country that has neighbors like Iran and Syria.


I dunno. Countries exist because of the strength and self-determination of those who organize to create them; there is no inherent 'right' for a group of people to own a certain parcel of land. History teaches us that all political divisions of this sort are transitory, anyways; sooner or later, someone comes along and creates their own 'right' to the land.

In the case of Israel, it is not like the populace of the region decided that they wanted autonomous government; Europe and the US banded together to carve a new country where none had existed before. They specifically set it up to prefer members of one religious group over another, and forcibly relocated - or at the very least looked the other way - millions of those who were already residents of that country. And people wonder why the inhabitants of the region don't recognize some stupid 'right' to exist, that Israel claims?

Tell me, what is that 'right' based upon?

Nothing.

What Israel has is the might to exist. And they have that, thanks to the US, who is using them. It's not a question of some inherent right.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 05:42 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
Then just possibly Hamas and a few more Arab countries might consider acknowledging Israel's right to exist. Ummm?


What Arab countries did you have in mind? In 2002 the Arab League offered normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for Palestinian statehood (Israeli recognition of Palestine's right to exist).

Hamas' reaction was mixed, but a Hamas spokesperson did respond to it positively:

Quote:
"That would be satisfactory for all Palestinian military groups to stop and build our state, to be busy in our own affairs, and have good neighborhood with Israelis."


Even in Hamas there is support for a two-state solution, just as there is opposition to any peace with Israel. On the Israeli side you have the same division, with those who want disengagement and peace and those who want greater Israel.

But you only hear how Hamas' charter doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist. Did you know that Likud, one of the major political parties in Israel, similarly does not recognize Palestine's right to exist in their charter?

The fanaticism is ascribed disproportionately to one side.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 06:10 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
"There has been generation after generation (of war). Now there is a generation who needs to live in peace, and not worry about their safety," said Shanab. "So it is a generation that wants to practice living in peace and postpone historical issues. We speak of historical Palestine, and practical reality."


Possibly, the use of "postpone historical issues" was less reassuring to some than it seems to be to you.
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 08:30 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

If it's enough for Americans to consider them enemies and to shape the PR of this conflict then I think it's worth pointing out that there is a strong element of Israeli society that wants to push Palestinians "into the sea" as well.


The Dead Sea has so much salt, everything floats.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 08:33 pm
@roger,
I find that about as reassuring as Likud rejecting the notion of a Palestinian state, but it's still a step in the right direction. Here's what he said for those who won't read the article:

Quote:
"There has been generation after generation (of war). Now there is a generation who needs to live in peace, and not worry about their safety," said Shanab. "So it is a generation that wants to practice living in peace and postpone historical issues. We speak of historical Palestine, and practical reality."

Asked whether "postponing historical issues" means that Hamas has not given up on its goal of eliminating the state of Israel, Shanab replied, "When I speak of postponement, I mean that there is a right for every generation to be satisfied with their condition. Now, when Palestinians and Israelis live among each other in peace, they may cooperate with each other in a way that everyone will be satisfied."


What I take this to mean is that in theory he doesn't think the creation of Israel is fair to Palestinians, but that it's currently in the Palestinians' interest to accept it as a fait accompli and forge a two-state solution.

Israel too has repeatedly expressed a desire to postpone concessions on their part. But any step either side takes toward a two-state solution is a step in the right direction.

If Palestinians have sovereignty for a generation like he spoke of, I really think it would be a game-changing event that removes even more support for the extremists in Hamas.

Hamas has it's pragmatists too, and as an organization they are more interested in political power than their war with Israel, it's just that they derive so much of their power from that pretext of fighting occupation.

Take that away, and I'll bet they have a lot fewer recruits to work with. This generation's Palestinians don't derive their anger from the creation of Israel, the forcible transfer of Palestinians or the right of return. The anger is predominantly based on checkpoints, blockades, targeted assassinations and collateral damage.

There's a reason that Gazans are more supportive of extremists than Palestinians in the West Bank, and it is the difference in their current circumstance, not historical theory.

Palestinians and Israelis will take some time to fully accept each others' states, but for the first time in your lifetime there is enough momentum on each side to make a go of it. Statements like that one I posted are important precedents and illustrate that even Hamas has people who can be reasoned with on some level.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 08:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

roger wrote:

Then just possibly Hamas and a few more Arab countries might consider acknowledging Israel's right to exist. Ummm?


Surely that knife cuts both ways...

Besides, no country has a 'right to exist.' It's a stupid phrase to begin with, and I have no idea how anyone thought it was appropriate for this situation.

Cycloptichorn


Good point. No country has "a right to exist." Like there is no God that defines who gets a country.

So, without rights to exist, only the strong live. Like that teeshirt: "Only the strong survive in NYC."

Nietzsche might agree.
masterk17
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 07:46 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
roger wrote:

Then just possibly Hamas and a few more Arab countries might consider acknowledging Israel's right to exist. Ummm?



Surely that knife cuts both ways...

Besides, no country has a 'right to exist.' It's a stupid phrase to begin with, and I have no idea how anyone thought it was appropriate for this situation.

Cyclopt ichorn


Quote:

Foofie Wrote:

Good point. No country has "a right to exist." Like there is no God that defines who gets a country.

So, without rights to exist, only the strong live. Like that teeshirt: "Only the strong survive in NYC."

Nietzsche might agree.



Thats right, What about the Karma thing, no one stays strong for long ..... !
 

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