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Israeli airstrikes in Gaza kill more than 200

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Israel has not let Palestine import currency or goods, thus all that is aval is what Hamas has smuggled in...ya, empowering Hamas works for Israel.

There will be no intifada because the Palestinians have been too beat down......Israel will continue to beat and beat upon the Palestinians until the Arabs have finally had enough and end the abuse through military means.


This is hardly a case of "abuse". It is more like self-defense.

Regardless, the Arabs have no power to end anything.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:37 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Israel's actions are also highly proportional. They are only doing what is necessary to eliminate the threat.


No. This latest attack is a misguided over-reaction - a politically motivated act in a highly volatile situation. The Israelis (say nothing of the Palestinians!) will come to regret that this was allowed to happen. Nothing but grief will come (to both sides) from this.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:42 pm
@oralloy,
Israel can not claim self defense because the response has not been proportional to the threat (they are just like America post 9/11 STUUUPID!). The Arabs can end this because the Persians, the Turks, and the Russians (maybe China as well) will support them. The Arabs can neutralize the Americans by threatening to take all OPEC contracts off the the dollar....letting the dollar crash. Given our oil addiction and our debts this would ruin us. America would sacrifice Israel if pressed.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:45 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
Israel's actions are also highly proportional. They are only doing what is necessary to eliminate the threat.


No. This latest attack is a misguided over-reaction - a politically motivated act in a highly volatile situation. The Israelis (say nothing of the Palestinians!) will come to regret that this was allowed to happen.


What overreaction? All Israel is doing is bombing the terrorists.

I really doubt there will be any regrets on the part of the Israelis.

If the Palestinians regret it, maybe they need to do some soul-searching about all the evil things they've done over the years.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:47 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Israel's actions are also highly proportional.


No it's not. 100 tons of munition in a few hours is not a proportional response to the rocket threat and it's counterproductive to the goal of eradicating Hamas.

Quote:
They are only doing what is necessary to eliminate the threat.


If these actions they are taking would actually eliminate the threat I'd be all for it. But if you follow this area of the world closely enough you should be under no illusion that this kind of bombing can eliminate the rocket threat (they just can't do that from the air) and would know that Israel is not making their citizens any safer this way.

In the last 7 years Israel suffered around 16 fatalities from rocket attacks. A third intifada would be a much greater danger to Israel's citizens than these rockets represent. The last intifada has been dead for quite a while now, and moderate leadership is in power in the West Bank, a disproportionate response with significant collateral damage bolsters support for extremism and presents a greater threat to Israel.

They needed to respond to Hamas breaking the cease fire, but the response should have been proportionate. Instead they are going to try to do as much systemic destruction to the civil infrastructure and Hamas as they can before the new cease fire comes into place.

Doing so both bolsters support for Hamas as well as reduces the ability for any Palestinian leadership to police themselves (e.g. this time they bombed over 40 police stations) and while it may be emotionally satisfying it's not strategically sound.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:49 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I disagree. This bombing campaign has been way too long in coming.


What are you on about? They had a cease fire till just last week.

I get it, you are just one of those guys who just picks a side and cheers, and doesn't bother to acquaint himself with any nuisance like details.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:53 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Israel's actions are also highly proportional. They are only doing what is necessary to eliminate the threat.


No. This latest attack is a misguided over-reaction - a politically motivated act in a highly volatile situation. The Israelis (say nothing of the Palestinians!) will come to regret that this was allowed to happen. Nothing but grief will come (to both sides) from this.


What she said.

I was listening when the news first broke on the radio....and so hoping that the (then much lower and highly unconfirmed) estimates of the scale and the death toll would turn out to be exaggerated.

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:53 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
What overreaction? All Israel is doing is bombing the terrorists

not every palistinal is a terrorist, they are potential terrorists. Israel is killing many innocents, and they are scum for doing so.
Quote:
I really doubt there will be any regrets on the part of the Israelis.

Of course, because they are stupid...there will be plenty of time for regret ofter the survivors from a destroyed Israel have the clarity to ponder what happened.
Quote:
If the Palestinians regret it, maybe they need to do some soul-searching about all the evil things they've done over the years.

The Palestinians have been outdone on the evil scale by Israel.....in a pissing contest as to who is worse Israel has already won.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 11:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Israel can not claim self defense because the response has not been proportional to the threat


That is incorrect. This action is highly proportional.

I've got to say that after all the outrages the Palestinians have perpetrated over the years, I personally favor something highly disproportionate. But what Israel is doing is entirely proportionate.




hawkeye10 wrote:
The Arabs can end this because the Persians, the Turks, and the Russians (maybe China as well) will support them.


This alleged support (if it even comes to pass) will not give the Arabs any ability to do anything to Israel.




hawkeye10 wrote:
The Arabs can neutralize the Americans by threatening to take all OPEC contracts off the the dollar....letting the dollar crash. Given our oil addiction and our debts this would ruin us.


That would not cause the dollar to crash, and would not ruin us.

If we had to pay for oil using a different currency, we are entirely capable of converting dollars to whatever the desired currency is.




hawkeye10 wrote:
America would sacrifice Israel if pressed.


Well, we aren't going to be pressed. But if we were pressed, we would still not abandon Israel.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:02 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Israel's actions are also highly proportional.


No it's not. 100 tons of munition in a few hours is not a proportional response to the rocket threat


Sure it is.



Robert Gentel wrote:
and it's counterproductive to the goal of eradicating Hamas.


Sure looks like a big blow against Hamas to me.



Robert Gentel wrote:

oralloy wrote:
They are only doing what is necessary to eliminate the threat.


If these actions they are taking would actually eliminate the threat I'd be all for it. But if you follow this area of the world closely enough you should be under no illusion that this kind of bombing can eliminate the rocket threat (they just can't do that from the air) and would know that Israel is not making their citizens any safer this way.


That's why Israel is preparing for a big ground invasion.



Robert Gentel wrote:
In the last 7 years Israel suffered around 16 fatalities from rocket attacks. A third intifada would be a much greater danger to Israel's citizens than these rockets represent. The last intifada has been dead for quite a while now,


As I recall, the last intifada died out when Israel put up the wall to prevent suicide bombers from getting in.

How will a new intifada be able to achieve anything?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:06 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I disagree. This bombing campaign has been way too long in coming.


What are you on about? They had a cease fire till just last week.

I get it, you are just one of those guys who just picks a side and cheers, and doesn't bother to acquaint himself with any nuisance like details.


Nope. I'm familiar with all the details.

As far as I'm concerned, any collateral damage the Palestinians suffer from all this is just Karma righting itself.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:06 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
What are you on about? They had a cease fire till just last week.

I get it, you are just one of those guys who just picks a side and cheers, and doesn't bother to acquaint himself with any nuisance like details.


Exactly. It's all just a game (like football!) about which "side" oralloy is on! He enjoys the excitement of a good conflict!

But he can support his chosen side & "fight" for it from the comfort of an internet forum - from the comfort of a safe life where these horrendous things happening in Gaza couldn't possibly happen to him. It would never occur to him that many Palestinians (& Israelis) are simply ordinary people, striving to live half decent lives.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:08 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
That's why Israel is preparing for a big ground invasion.


And their ground invasions aren't sustainable either, and as soon as they are gone the rockets can be firing again.

Quote:
As I recall, the last intifada died out when Israel put up the wall to prevent suicide bombers from getting in.


You neglect trivialities like disengagement, that they abandoned their occupation of the territory was a big factor. They can't stop this kind of shelling without occupation, but for the reasons I've already wrote about they can't sustain that and maintain their national identity.

This is the strategy they abandoned with great success when they went the wall route.

Quote:
How will a new intifada be able to achieve anything?


It won't. Just like a disproportionate Israeli response won't. This is why I don't see this escalation as strategically wise.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:10 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
What overreaction? All Israel is doing is bombing the terrorists

not every palistinal is a terrorist, they are potential terrorists. Israel is killing many innocents, and they are scum for doing so.


The Palestinians are asking for it.




hawkeye10 wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
I really doubt there will be any regrets on the part of the Israelis.

Of course, because they are stupid...there will be plenty of time for regret ofter the survivors from a destroyed Israel have the clarity to ponder what happened.


No one is going to destroy Israel.




hawkeye10 wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
If the Palestinians regret it, maybe they need to do some soul-searching about all the evil things they've done over the years.

The Palestinians have been outdone on the evil scale by Israel.....in a pissing contest as to who is worse Israel has already won.


Hardly.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:18 am
Quote:
It is also possible that Israel has decided to act against Hamas now, during the last days of a friendly Bush administration in the United States.

The United States is arguably the only outside power Israel deeply cares about. President-elect Barack Obama is seen in Israel as being more sympathetic to the Palestinians.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801657.stm

very likely, Israel being STUUUPID. Obama does not have precedence to protect, thus bad behaviour from Israel now makes it easier for Obama to let Israel be sacrificed. Normally Presidents feel some compulsion to uphold the previous American position, but seeing as how the Bush Admin was such an incompetent group with nothing but disasters on its record Obama is completely free to change course as he thinks best.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:18 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Quote:
What are you on about? They had a cease fire till just last week.

I get it, you are just one of those guys who just picks a side and cheers, and doesn't bother to acquaint himself with any nuisance like details.


Exactly. It's all just a game (like football!) about which "side" oralloy is on! He enjoys the excitement of a good conflict!


True. I do.

But when I watch a conflict for the enjoyment of observing the tactics and such, I don't take sides.

I'm siding with Israel because they are the good guys and the Palestinians are evil.




msolga wrote:
But he can support his chosen side & "fight" for it from the comfort of an internet forum - from the comfort of a safe life where these horrendous things happening in Gaza couldn't possibly happen to him.


Not necessarily. 9/11 happened on US soil.

Anyone remember how the "ordinary people" of Gaza reacted to 9/11?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:21 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
You neglect trivialities like disengagement, that they abandoned their occupation of the territory was a big factor. They can't stop this kind of shelling without occupation, but for the reasons I've already wrote about they can't sustain that and maintain their national identity.


I disagree. I think they can occupy Gaza (militarily, no settlements) without compromising their national identity.

The occupation can be justified solely on the grounds that it is to prevent the rockets.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:23 am
@oralloy,
oralloy

Anyone who, in the current situation, says:

Quote:
The Palestinians are asking for it.


... is not worth arguing with.

You simply do not have a clue.
You should read up on the situation & educate yourself.
Honestly, I don't know why I've wasted my time responding to you.
I think I'll stop wasting my time now.

oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:23 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:
It is also possible that Israel has decided to act against Hamas now, during the last days of a friendly Bush administration in the United States.

The United States is arguably the only outside power Israel deeply cares about. President-elect Barack Obama is seen in Israel as being more sympathetic to the Palestinians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801657.stm

very likely, Israel being STUUUPID. Obama does not have precedence to protect, thus bad behaviour from Israel now makes it easier for Obama to let Israel be sacrificed. Normally Presidents feel some compulsion to uphold the previous American position, but seeing as how the Bush Admin was such an incompetent group with nothing but disasters on its record Obama is completely free to change course as he thinks best.


Obama is going to support Israel even more strongly than Bush did.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2008 12:28 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I'm siding with Israel because they are the good guys and the Palestinians are evil.


Sigh
0 Replies
 
 

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