What does Jesus want?

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

I can speak with authority from the perspective of the modern Protestant churches I was a part of (although my understanding of what Martin Luther is not based on any expertise).

So what's your "authority" then? Similar to that of the Pope?

When I was a religious Protestant, my belief was that the original followers of Jesus were protestants (i.e. they understood God, Jesus and the Bible the way I did). From our perspective we understood that the "Roman Catholic" church had strayed from true Christianity very early in their history.

Well, many see it it not only a bit different. Besides that, in the early history of the Church ... which of those groups who split do you call "Protestant"?

If by "catholic church" you mean the "one true church".... well everybody from Copts to Baptists to Branch Davidians claim to be members of the "one true church".

Sure. But you introduced here the term "one true church" - which actually is part of the original Apostles' Creed - thus 'uniting' those Catholic churches.

Many Christians, particularly Protestants, condemn the "Roman Catholic" church as a heretical or schismatic church that is no longer part of the "catholic" http://able2know.org/reply/post-3506558/quote/#(i.e. one true) church.

Hmm, you certainly know what a 'schisma' is. Sopunds quite funny when used "from the opposite party".

But that is just a matter of perspective.

Don't confuse Catholic with catholic.

I don't - I know a bit of Latin.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

For the life of me, i can't understand why a personal, Protestant bigotry on the part of E_brown should be considered definitive for everyone else.

Quite the contrary.

I am arguing against bigotry... rather than accepting the idea that one organized church has a special claim to the Christian religion, I am arguing that all brands of Christianity have an equal claim.

Each church has its own narrative.

The story as told by Catholic Church (that is the organization headed by the church) claims that it was established by Jesus with Peter as the first pope. This gives the Catholic Church a special place as the true church in God's eyes. This is not my background, so feel free to correct me if this does not correctly describe the Roman Catholic world view.

The story as told by many Protestant churches is quite different-- and I meant to say that I grew up and even studied for the ministry in a couple of the churches and am very familiar with this world view. In this world view, Peter was a protestant and was not intended to set up anything like a papacy.

A Protestant will tell you that they are returning to Christianity as God really intended since, in the protestant view, the Catholic church (as an organization) strayed from what Jesus intended.

Before I am accused of bigotry... I no longer accept either side and am saying that these two world views are equally invalid.

I am merely saying that the Roman Catholic world view is no more or less valid than any other.

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@boomerang,

Hey Boomerang - just thought I would support what I said earlier.

[quote]2 Peter 1:
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]

According to Peter (at least it was attributed to Peter) as a believer God has given us the ability to have all of the above things. Verse 7 says that we are to add to our faith "brotherly kindness and love"

And Paul writes in his letter to the Galatians that:

[quote]Galatians 5:13-15
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[/quote]

I do believe that Jesus wants us to love each other...regardless of who they are or how they act

[quote]Matthew 5:
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?[/quote]

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@ebrown p,

Setanta,

I would like to hear you opinion on the Great Schism-- am I incorrect that from the Eastern Orthodox point of view... it was Rome that left the true church?

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Well, since you asked us to nevermind everyone else and tell you what Jesus wants....then rephrased it to what would Jesus want for us, I get on track.

As Rosborne and Mame said, Jesus doesn't want anything from us. If such a person existed, he's dead and gone.

What do I think Jeus would have wanted from us?

Who knows if he ever thought about us? I don't think in the bible he ever gives any indication that he thought of anything else but the people he was living with at the present time, or maybe the next generation or 2.

If he gave any thought to it, he'd probably assume people would keep living in the same type of environment they were living in. Out in a hot dry country doing everything manually, and living the same quality of life those around him had. He certainly didn't seem concerned about raising anyone's quality of life.

Assuming for the moment that he not only existed, but said some of the things attributed to him, he seemed to think it desirable that people leave their homes and families without thinking much about what would happen to them when left with no support.

Yeah sure, I've heard that it was believed the world was going to end at any time, but, he was wrong about that.

Jesus was just some guy that said some stuff. Later on a bunch of people wrote down that he said a lot of other stuff, or different stuff, which was actually their words.

Since then, many people have been trying to tell others what Jesus meant by whatever he said, so everyone will do what they want. The proof they know and others don't is that they were "inspired"

If you're not inspired, you don't know ****, and are supposed to follow like sheep.

So, whatever Jesus would have wanted is meaningless, since most, if not all of this inspiration came about to control and have power over others.

Anyway, that's what I think.

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I think Jesus would want a good pair of Burkenstocks:

http://www.man-sandals.com/sandals-images/flip-flops-pictures/mens_birkenstocks_socks_1.jpg

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@Green Witch,

Jesus would NOT wear socks with sandals...

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

So, whatever Jesus would have wanted is meaningless, since most, if not all of this inspiration came about to control and have power over others.

This is the most intelligent thing I've read on this forum recently. Worthy of inclusion in the Sig Thread. Wink

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@ebrown p,

I suggest to you that neither church "left" the other. As i have pointed out, the only theological difference between the Orthodox and Catholic churches is a disagreement about how to determine the date of Easter. The difference between a single Pope, and a few Patriarchs is an ecclesiastic difference, and doesn't touch on the subject of theology. No matter what you may now try to assert, there has never been a dispute between the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and the hierarchy of the Orthodox Church about which were "the true church." Anything you might be able to dredge up will doubtless be another expression of bigotry by an adherent of a specific confession, little different from the bigotry you have aired here.

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@Rockhead,

Quote:

Jesus would NOT wear socks with sandals...

I sincerely hope not. Very Happy

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I suggest to you that neither church "left" the other. As i have pointed out, the only theological difference between the Orthodox and Catholic churches is a disagreement about how to determine the date of Easter. The difference between a single Pope, and a few Patriarchs is an ecclesiastic difference, and doesn't touch on the subject of theology. No matter what you may now try to assert, there has never been a dispute between the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and the hierarchy of the Orthodox Church about which were "the true church." Anything you might be able to dredge up will doubtless be another expression of bigotry by an adherent of a specific confession, little different from the bigotry you have aired here.

I thought the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that the Trinity came into existence with Jesus' birth, while the Roman Catholic Church believes that the Trinity always existed. Back in the day, this was a big difference of opinion, I was told!

The reason neither church claims it is the one true church, as I was told, is that the Orthodox Church itself just doesn't recognize the Roman Catholic Church. I do not know if that is true, but it reminds me of the ignoring of Reform or Conservative Judaism by Orthodox Jews, I believe. Technically, that would make your point correct that neither church claims to be the one true church; however, not recognizing another's existence sort of makes the point moot, if that is so.

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What does jesus want?

I dunno.
his sign says -
Will Work For Food

I think he is after beer money personally

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@shewolfnm,

I think Jesus offered more than he asked - whether you believe in him as an actual entity of some sort who lived or simply as an idea- I think is immaterial.

Either as a person or as an idea - he was a teacher...he was offering a way to live life that he thought would work for people and help them find happiness and peace in their lives. He offered ideas on how to relate to others and one's
government and the world at large. He set an example.

I think the point was made earlier that he wanted us to find the kingdom of heaven within ourselves...and I think this is key - whatever your heaven is - you'd be happier and more self-reliant if you could find it within yourself.
So in that sense - I think his message has been subverted and twisted into something else entirely, which is a shame.

I think that what he asks of me is: to love my neighbor as myself and to do unto others as I'd have them do unto me, and judge not lest I want to be judged just as harshly.

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You may be right about the trinity--i've never heard that, but that certainly isn't conclusive. But your "moot point" is a load of crap. Popes and Patriarchs have met several times in recent decades, and they have lifted the mutual excommunications which were pronounced in the 11th century. There is little reason to assume that the two churches would ever re-unite, but certainly they don't ignore one another.

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@Setanta,

All Eastern Christian Churches (Orthodox as well as Catholic Orthodox) use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, not the Apostles' Creed what the Roman Catholics (et. al.) do.

The Trinity is the same in both. But certainly it might be that they have a theological different interpretation. (As far as I remember talks with our local archimandrite, it doesn't differ. But I may be wrong.)

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I know what Jesus wants....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/stevetheq/red_ryder_ad.jpg

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@Bi-Polar Bear,

but he could put out his all seeing eye with that

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@Walter Hinteler,

As i understand it, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches both adhere to the Nicene Creed, but that the Catholics add a single word, filioque (and the son) in the Latin form, which does not appear in the Greek.

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@djjd62,

especially if his shoes weren't tied . . .

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@Setanta,

Well, I've been used to "and now we pray the 'apostolic' creed" ...

Yes, I know that the filioque was added.
"… Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem,
qui ex Patre Filioque procedit …"

That's one of the differences between the Eastern and Western tradition.

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What does Jesus want?

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