The Son of Man

Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2022 02:37 pm
The Anointed wrote:
Actually, we will say no more to one who is so mentally confused, and we will cease to waste valuable time, on one who does not have the intelligence to comprehend the Holy Scripture, or simply does not wish to understand, and has totally rejected the words of the Lord.

But I will start a new thread in order to reveal to those in search of the truth, that Jesus was the man chosen as the visible earthly temple in which our Lord God and savior, “THE SON OF MAN” revealed himself to the world and the awesome sacrifice that he makes for the salvation of mankind, but not the salvation of every human being.

URL: https://able2know.org/topic/317466-11#post-7218629

But he didn't. So I'm making this thread for him. I don't have too much energy to argue right now, but at some point, I'll allow Anointed to make any arguments he wants, and I'll do the same. We gonna hash this out until we understand each other. Even if we ultimately don't agree.

The points I intend to prove:
1. Many words in the English language are assumed to be gendered but actually are not. So that Jesus is Son of Man literally it doesn't need him to be male (it doesn't need him to be female either, but we'll get to that)
2. Mankind means mankind. The entire human race. God wants to save all of us. He didn't die on the cross so that a small fanclub could be saved.
3. Christ has come again. We need to stop waiting, and start living as people who have been in contact with Jesus.
4. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is one with the Father. So Jesus is God.
5. Some other points too, probably.
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2022 03:25 pm
Let's start with #2

John (the Baptizer) tells us of Jesus:
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

First, wheat and chaff are two parts of the SAME plant. Yes, this is important. There is not good and bad wheat. ALL wheat is good to eat, until it goes bad. Chaff is the unusable straw crap from the wheat plant, which is basically only good for bedding for horses or to be burned. Moreover, let's talk about the burning itself.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Once again, we are treated to an image of burning unwanted portions. But all parts of a vine are still part of it, they are simply unwanted parts. What is burned is not the whole vine (not unless there is a blight, and that is not its fault), but the section didn't have any fruit and it was taking alot of energy to grow without anything productive. Plants have a sink-source mechanism where there is only so much energy to go around, so typically if you want big fruits, you have to remove some of them.

Not only that, burning with fire is not destruction. The ash is of use. It has been turned from excess branches taking up space into fertilizer and room. We have a subsistence farm on my property. It's tiny, but we get some crops, so wild fruit, and some figs. We routinely burn old branches, and it isn't because they are wicked, it's because they are choking out decent growth. We also have a fair number of fires just because my dad gets mail, and needs to get rid of branches and stuff. This ash in turn gets mixed in with compost. Revelation speaks of a harvest like it's a terrible time when only the righteous get collected. But as you've seen in these examples, it is only parts of a whole that are removed. If a farmer tried to check through good and bad wheat, they would operate at a loss and go under.

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

The serpent that Moses gave on a stick did not differentiate between good and evil people. Everyone who looked at it was saved. Likewise, Jesus has not set only Christianity as salvation. Anyone who sees Jesus is saved. Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, it does not matter. Jesus came for the world.
Nor did it matter if the stick was bronze, iron, or even just a wood carving with a dead snake. Likewise, there are parallel figures that had many points in common with Jesus. Because these are Jesus archetypes... around the world. Egyptian Coptics already had Akhnaten teach them about monotheism. Buddhists have the parable of the Prodigal Son, and a prediction of the coming Buddha (Maitreya). Truly I tell you, Jesus is the Maitreya Buddha.

Jesus did not die on the cross for people of Israel. He did not die for Christians only. Mankind means mankind. All humans. What will happen is that our "chaff" and "vines" will be burned away. God intends to use our "wheat" and our "fruit".

As for dogs and cats, they have a different system. But God does care for them too.
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Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2022 03:36 pm
I'm Jewish. Orthodox Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah. We also don't shove our religious beliefs down others throats. Jesus earthly life is recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The Jews do not see the New Testament as being a reliable historical document.
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2022 04:42 pm
You'll learn there are about a dozen right wing nut jobs on here like the OP, I usually click on their profile and put them on ignore. You'll never see them again Razz
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2022 11:35 pm
Wherein I address #3

Lemme ask you something then.

12 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 2 “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. 3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. 4 If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.

Yet most Jews blatantly disobey this law. They instead have a token "lamb", only a shank. Sometimes, they even have chicken. Or fish. But the Torah says lamb. Why?

As a Christian, I have had a Christian Seder. We eat lamb. It's storebought lamb, but still. Even when there isn't Seder on Thursday, we eat lamb on Sunday. Because Jesus was the Lamb of God. Now, the Christians do not need to sacrifice anything. Jesus is sufficient sacrifice for our sins, so the lamb is a meal not a sacrifice. No need to spread blood on the door either, for Christ's blood is shed for us. So a meal is sufficient. But lamb is an important reminder that Jesus is the Lamb of God, the perfect offering for our sins.
Even the Samaritans keep this sacrifice (though in this case, they do make as a sacrifice, unlike the Christians). Yet the Jews have decided not to keep what their law clearly laid out by the Torah.
I like Jews. I am in a regular friendship with one, helping him with a book. And we argue like cats and dogs. Since his book is about a catgirl, maybe literally.

But what this tells me is that the refusal to eat lamb is a turning one's back on the reality of lamb as part of the Passover, because it requires them to face the elephant in the room.

Or here, when the Torah falls to the ground, they must fast. But this makes the Torah an idol. Neither the Torah nor the Temple are to be worshipped.
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6but showing loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.…

And these are clearly manmade things!

Nor do you keep kosher properly. “You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

The real problem is why did God forbid this? There are many possible reasons given by commentators:
1. Because it was an idolatrous practice.
2. Because it was a magical (occult) practice to try to make the land more productive.
3. Because it was cruel to destroy a baby goat in the very milk which sustained it.
4. Because milk and meat are difficult to digest.
5. Because it shows contempt for the parent-child relationship.
6. Because it would symbolically profane the Feast of Ingathering.
7. Because God wanted them to cook with olive oil, not butter.
8. Because it was too luxurious or Epicurean.

The truth is that we do not know for sure why God commanded this. But it does not really matter, since the Israelites knew exactly what they were not to do, even if they did not fully understand why. So while there is a problem in understanding the purpose of this passage, there is no problem in understanding its meaning. It means exactly what it says.

If you do not understand a law, you are not able to keep it.

The spirit of the law is always more important than its letter, or you are unable to keep it at all. And this is the point Jesus made, that the law was misread and impossible to keep, and someone had to die for our sins. You see, if you do not understand the law, you do not understand that eating chicken with eggs is also in violation, as is High Fructose Corn Syrup (which is produced by mixing corn with itself). #3, #5, #6, and maybe #1. For all of these reasons, but especially the idea of cannibalizing a parent-child relationship. And neither should we behave this way with our own children, forcing them to give up their hopes and dreams, to die on the altar of filial piety. For parents to lay on a crushing burden on their own kids. "He who troubles his own house shall inherit the wind." We cannibalize our children whenever we feed them doctrine rather than teaching them to be faithful and wise, able to interpret the Torah or Bible.

The New Testament is allegory for the leadup to the destruction of the Temple, and why it was okay that the Temple fell. It is not relevant whether a historical Jesus existed, though no credible historian denies it.
So yes, the Samaritans (Samarians?) were right! Your laws have been corrupted. Yet Jesus is also right that it doesn't matter, because it is mercy and worship of God, and not sacrifice that is important. (Hosea 6:6 btw) It is impossible to follow the laws, as we do not even understand them!

Now, Jesus is not believed to be the Messiah because it is widely assumed (from books like Maccabees) that the Messiah should free them from earthly powers. Be a military ruler. But that is a backward and barbaric revenge-based notion of what God's anointed should be. God tells us, "Vengeance is mine."

Go ahead, borrow the book of Revelation from a Christian bible. You will find that it is not in fact a Christian book at all, but a book written by a messianic Jewish heretic (not all Messianic Jews are heretics, but this one was) written about judgement on this "synagogue of Satan" using imagery straight from Ezekiel. It's a false prophecy, intended to get Christians to continue to wait as Jews have.
Until 1000 years ago, no self-respecting Jewish leader interpreted Isaiah 53 as anything other than about the Messiah suffering.

The Gospel addresses this seeming two Messiahs by having there be a Jesus Barabbas (Jesus "son of the father") at the same time there is Jesus of Nazareth (Nazareth is a hick town that people are shown wondering if anything good can come out of it). The crowd (representing larger Jewish culture) is persuaded to ask for the latter's crucifixion.

But let's address this paradox. Specifically Daniel.

25 Then King Darius wrote to all the nations and peoples of every language in all the earth:

“May you prosper greatly!

26 “I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel.

“For he is the living God
and he endures forever;
his kingdom will not be destroyed,
his dominion will never end.
He rescues and he saves;
he performs signs and wonders
in the heavens and on the earth.
He has rescued Daniel
from the power of the lions.”

28 So Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

Have you noticed? This is the end. This is how the narrative actually ends, with his great prosperity after serving kings on behalf of God.

From Daniel 7 onward, we have a number of tacked-on chapters. Not only is there a narrative shift, going from the story of Daniel to an extended amount of prophecies, but there is grammatical shift. Suddenly, we see Daniel talk in first person. Not only that, we see a shift to prophecies about vengeance. This has several hallmarks of being tampered with, especially the shift from events involving real kings to extended prophetic nonsense.

Daniel 2 also has prophecy. But unlike the others above, there is not such confused imagery, and it can clearly be interpreted as several ages, after which God builds a kingdom that can can never be toppled.

Why then is there so much evil in the world?

...Say the Shema to me.
Hear o Israel, the Lord your God is One.

Because we humans do not accept God as One, the God who Isaiah 45:7 says brings light and darkness, but believe that evil is in control, even men are allowed to mask the narrative.
Turn off your news. You will see that nature is in accord with as God plans. Birds chirp and the land is fertile year after year despite climate change doom and gloom. God has already set up his eternal kingdom, it is up to us to support his anointed. As long as that DOESN'T happen, we are stuck with 1 Samuel 8, where we want earthly kings to rule us. You will complain, but God will not hear you, he says.

As long as we continue to prop up the election of kings, presidents, popes, and even high priests, we continue to have senseless wars over country boundaries. The boundary of your country is ordained by God, it will return to its natural shape once we understand the true nature of this world and stop believing the delusion. And what is the delusion?

That Messiah has not come or needs to come again.


45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land[g] until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 47 And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, “This man is calling Elijah.” 48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. 49 But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him.” 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

55 There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

57 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. 58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59 And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud 60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the tomb.

62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last fraud will be worse than the first.” 65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard of soldiers. Go, make it as secure as you can.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure by sealing the stone and setting a guard.


Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.” 8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”

11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers 13 and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

Neither the Romans nor the Jews would have wanted Jesus to come back. So it is not a story told by the Romans because they wanted to soften up the Jews. Nor is it a tale told by the Jews to make trouble for Rome, because the Jewish leaders were actively trying to suppress Christianity. So would it have been spread as a lie by the followers of Jesus? Not bloody likely.

How readily are you to die for what you know to be a lie? Yet the Christians were okay with getting tortured, eaten by lions, and even hung on the cross like Jesus. I am okay being rejected by everyone and losing most of my friends.
Should we put some rabbis and world leaders in the lion pit and see if they suddenly admit certain truths? The disciples told this, knowing that it is true. Or rather they told this knowing that they had nothing to fear in the afterlife.

There are no more Messiahs coming. This is because the real one marched through the gate. This is also because the Muslims then sealed the gate, fulfilling ANOTHER prophecy. And if they somehow burst it down, there is a freaking graveyard behind it. No Jewish leader would dare enter an unclean place.

So either you take the one you already got or you admit the Messiah will not come on this Earth. But you may be tricked by end times crap, like a return of the red heifer or great leaders promising to rebuild the Temple. The Temple is destroyed because you would not keep his covenant and accept his anointed. We need to stop wailing about it, and (a) return to observance of the law starting with the keeping of Passover, lamb, blood on the door, and all; (b) or we need to realize that the law is fulfilled in Christ. But we cannot go on like this, refusing to accept the Messiah, and instead following earthly leaders.

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Now read this passage carefully, because there's a trick here. You see, it seems like they are giving the right answer. The Messiah will come and punish the wicked tenants (Romans, etc). But Jesus is telling them, "Wrong answer." He's telling them that they are the wicked tenants, and that God will take away what he promised to them. He will give it to people who understand mercy. So, why not give it a try? God forgive you. He intends all of his people (which is all of mankind) to be saved. But this will involve them wanting to turn away from the way things are, and to stop accepting the wickedness of the world.

Increasingly, we seem hellbent on following prophecy, thinking that we are the ones to benefit. But prophecy is not a toy. End times usually end with the people using them getting hurt. Put down the nukes and all the terrible ideas, and build God's kingdom not with works but by faith. God's kingdom is built on trusting God, not on all our attempts to do "good." What is good for me, is bad for you, and vice versa. And yes, this is an epically long rant, but I want to impress upon you that it is not about shoving your beliefs down people's throats. It's about you rejecting your own beliefs to set up a 2000 year old coverup against your own people. Why don't the rabbis let the regular people read the Gospel and decide for themselves what to think of Jesus? Why is the history around this period outright closed? And why is the easy law about preparing the lamb at home (which was done BEFORE the temple) not observed, in favor of this sham... I mean shank?

Your own priests shove their religious beliefs down your throat!

I am a Christian speaking to another sorta Christian (Anointed), and you can decide either way, but as long as you let Rabbi Mirmah ("deceiver") tell you what to think, you are not free to decide the truth for yourself.
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Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2022 06:32 am
Maybe if you weren't such a left wing nutjob, you'd realize that what I'm saying is actually fairly centered. I don't advocate for sone capitalist paradise. I believe in God, as Christians and Jews have for centuries. Maybe not in the same way as they have for centuries, but that is between me and God.

So we're gonna talk about #4. How Jesus is the Son of God. And since Jesus and the father are one, Jesus is God. And yet is not the Father, because the Trinity is a weird mess.

The Jews think that God has no child, but Proverbs 30 says...

Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!
“Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

But you say, there is no Trinity. But you say, this refers to Israel or something. Sorry but uhhh, Jacob wrestled with a man, who later told him that he has wrestled with man and God. And the Old Testament (what Jews call the Tanakh or Torah) has numerous references to the Ruach ha Kodesh, the Spirit of the Lord.

But who is this man? Well, when we read Proverbs 1-9 and 30-31, and cut out all the "listen my son" tacked-on morals we see a recurring reference to Lady Wisdom, who tells us that she was here since the foundation of the world. Why you really reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Because it would require going back and looking for all human references to God. It is fine to say abstractly that man is made in God's image, but heaven forbid we extend the metaphor to its logical conclusion, and understand that the Son of God has alreadt been mentioned well before God came as Messiah. But the sexism of the Jews buried this too. Proverbs is clogged with other writings that should go in a separate book. Without that stuff, it reads completely differently, a story about Wisdom calling to us as a woman. About the Son of God (Proverbs 30), and finally about the righteous woman.

The writers of Proverbs had met God as a sort of guiding force, and likened this to a woman. A muse, if you will, guiding them towards wisdom.

The Son of God isn't specifically a son or a daughter, but the Wisdom that prevails upon us when we follow God. But when we dismiss God and dismiss his idea for our life, we reject him. Just as we brush aside people like me who are trying to teach about something other than left/right. The Jews of Jesus's time wanted a warlord to save them from Rome. But the Messiah came to save them from sin. And not just them.
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Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 04:13 am
I'll talk about #1 @The Anointed

Many words in modern English are assumed to be sexist or at least gender-exclusive, when in fact they aren't.

Here's an example:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal."

Now, while you can claim that America was sorta an all-white all-boy's club, and that they left out blacks and women, this isn't actually the case. The Boston Massacre started because a black guy named Crispus Attucks got killed. Betsy Ross helped weave ths flag and design it. John Adams sent a bunch of letters to his wife, and their correspondence is part of American history. As is the office of First Lady, and her role in designing the White House (especially its gardens).

You see, traditionally, in mixed company, men meant men and women. But more importantly, the singular man doesn't always mean a male (e.g. "no man is an island"). It can also mean mensch, effectively a human being. Human itself is a term where there is no such thing as a huwoman or huperson. Human really is hum-an (or a being of clay). Same root as humus (soil).

As for God, when God talks alone, there is the word "we" used. You hear the trans community use the word "they" as singular. Well God is a singular "we." Which means to other people, God is a singular " they". Nevertheless, Hebrew language wasn't designed for this ambiguity, and "it" was reserved for objects, so they chose the gender relatable to most of forefathers. Which is to say, male.

But nonetheless, God apoears to Mary, Hannah, Eve, Hagar, etc. There is no mention of them being offended by God being male. This is because God is a mensch not a male. He is recorded saying things that are more appropriate for a woman. He is recorded as having a pretty intimate knowledge of childbirth to the point blessing fertility and even opening or closing wombs. And then they say man was made in God's image, male and female.
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