mccain begs off

@Cycloptichorn,

I imagine 20-30 people in a room debating the theories and the consequences of each of them. Have you ever been on the other end of a conference call where the main meeting is in person with 20 people talking over each other, having side conversations, etc? I've been there on both sides of the phone. The people on the phone are completely ignored. It's not impossible to get the complete picture while on a conference call, but it's not likely.

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@cicerone imposter,

I don't know why you think you're arguing with me on these point you keep on bringing up. Where did I ever say there was only one answer or that economics was an exact science.

What I've been saying is that each and every senator should be studying the various plans that have been proposed, speaking to the experts who have these various opinions, hearing every side out, and then after hearing everything they need to make up their own minds.

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@maporsche,

This is what I was responding to. You wrote:

Quote:

I don't think the theories behing economics are tied to the law AT ALL.

Yes, Obama could probably read the law and defend some sort of land deal. But why does Obama's ability to practice law in our country, qualify him to be a good economist?

They are two completely separate disciplines; there is no relation.

I disagree and responded accordingly.

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@cicerone imposter,

I don't know how your subsequent comments about economics being an art vs a science, or that there isn't a "right" answer to this problem, were directed at this post of mine......

But I still think, the theory of economics and the practice of law are two separate disciplines.

Since Obama is a lawyer does he also know everything about healthcare since there are many laws regarding healthcare?

Since Obama is a lawyer does he also know everything about running a corporation since a lot of laws govern corporations?

Since Obama is a lawyer does he also know about sanitation since there are a lot of laws that govern sanitation?

Being a lawyer is not equalivant to being intelligent about the various issues that are governed by laws.

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@maporsche,

It was in response to some of your posts - if you bother to go back and read your own statements and questions.

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@maporsche,

But I still think, the theory of economics and the practice of law are two separate disciplines.

The are two separate disciplines to "some" degree, but they are married to each other like man and wife. You can't have a baby without the other.

Since Obama is a lawyer does he also know everything about healthcare since there are many laws regarding healthcare?

That's a tangent, and you (should) know it. Nobody is an expert in every issue about economics or law.

Since Obama is a lawyer does he also know everything about running a corporation since a lot of laws govern corporations?

Here again, you're throwing a strawman on this issue.

Since Obama is a lawyer does he also know about sanitation since there are a lot of laws that govern sanitation?

Another strawman.

Being a lawyer is not equalivant to being intelligent about the various issues that are governed by laws.

And not all lawyers know about every aspect of all the laws. Even doctors specialize into different fields of medicine.

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@cicerone imposter,

CI, your point was that because Obama is a lawyer and because some economic theories are implemented via laws that Obama must have an understanding of economic theory.

So, I'm asking, because Obama is a lawyer and because sanitation is chock full of laws then Obama must have an understanding of sanitation.

This is your logic trail as I understand it. Clarify your point, if you like.

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@cicerone imposter,

Ok, here you go. I do not see how your comments are reflective of anything that I posted.

me wrote:

have you studied economics? I've only had 4 college classes so far (I'm an econ major). It's not quite as simple as you all are trying to make it out to be.

Our nations economy and this historic mess we're in is not something Obama could have picked up in any law class

you wrote:

Yes, I've studied economics including macro and micro.

No, economics is an art, not science. That's the reason most so-called experts in economics have different views of this liquidity crisis and how to resolve it.

That's been true as long as I can remember.

me wrote:

I guess your right cyclops (was there ever any doubt). I can't think of one reason Obama would want to talk to the experts, question how they came to their conclusions, hear differing opinions in the room, discuss the downstream impacts with these experts. I'm not sure why he wouldn't just want to wait for a finished bill, not knowing any of the theories behind it, and just vote based on his economic advisors opinion. Not sure why he wouldn't want to understand it for himself.

you wrote:

Are you sure you studied four courses in Economics? Expert economists disagree on most issues that has to do with the economy; there is no scientific formula that one can apply to find the best solutions. They are all educated guesstimates. The reason that is so is simply there are just too many variables in any economy that can be measured accurately, and it doesn't remain static.

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@maporsche,

Someone with a law degree has been exposed to "Business Law." That doesn't mean all law students are experts at business law, or that they specialize in business law once they graduate with a law degree and pass their bar exam.

Some economic theories about tort law is part of those studies, and are exposed to what that entails in industry/commerce. I also took Business Law in college, but that was over 40-years ago, and did not have to "practice" it in any of my positions during my career. I did have to learn labor laws, and applied what I learned in my capacity in management. I also taught some classes on labor laws to management staff, and created Personnel Policies that must meet both state and federal labor laws. I also assisted other companies develop Personnel Policies. I also applied my knowledge of accounting on my jobs; by creating accounting systems for several companies, doing consulting, auditing, and supervising associates.

Laws and commerce (economics) are tied together, whether they are payroll related, OSHA, unemployment, disability, or transfer of benefits.

I had some understanding of health care issues, because I implement them in several companies, but I'm sure many of the details have changed not only in cost but employee shares have increased dramatically since my retirement. I also had some knowledge about retirement plans, sick leave, vacation/holiday pay, and other payroll issues on local, state, and federal income taxes.

I feel my exposure to all levels of management prepared me to have a pretty good understanding about commerce and the relative laws associated with it.

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@cicerone imposter,

Sorry, I don't see the connection that you are trying to make between the laws you're mentioning and any economic theories around how this bail out will help our country. I just can't see it; I must be closed minded on this issue.

Obama and McCain have the same economic experience; all I can see is that McCain is modest about what he understands and Obama is less modest. Neither understand the theories the drive the markets and our economy (especially globally). I don't think this is a fault of either candidate, like we've mentioned, they are not experts.

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@maporsche,

Fair observation, because I thought this debate was a toss-up. I thought McCain's talk about cutting expense and what he passed in congress was a winner for him even though I couldn't reconcile in my own mind about how that was possible when he voted 90% with Bush during the past eight years. I thought Obama struggled with how he as president can reduce his original plans about spending after this $700 billion bailout.

Any economic theory by fiat must consider all the laws that will impact any business venture whether domestic or international. Most companies have an attorney just to make sure they comply with all the laws of commerce. There is no way an economic activity can ignore the laws - including payroll, sales, and corporate taxes. They are all "laws."

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Fair observation, because I thought this debate was a toss-up. I thought McCain's talk about cutting expense and what he passed in congress was a winner for him even though I couldn't reconcile in my own mind about how that was possible when he voted 90% with Bush during the past eight years. I thought Obama struggled with how he as president can reduce his original plans about spending after this $700 billion bailout.

From my POV, McCain was against Bush when it counted.

I hear you, I thought Obama was walking a fine line around his plans for presidency and this 700 billion bailout. I didn't like his responses. If this $700 billion package passes, I think it would be irresponsible for either candidate to do anything but reduce the size of government in their 1st term.

I don't know that Obama can do anything he proposes with this $700 billion hanging over his first term.

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@maporsche,

I hope that you don't take offense, maporsche, if I callyour comment about the 700 Billion ridiculous. You may be aware, and if you are not, I can find many sources to back it up, that the 700 Billion is NOT A give away, it is a loan. You may be aware that the consensus is that the government is very likely to get back all but 100 or 200 Billion of the money.

Some even contend that the government will make money after the markets stabilize and the bundled mortagages can be sold off at much higher prices than that which they are at now.

When the president of the United States--Barack Obama--is in office and since he will have a Democratic controlled House and Senate, he will give 95% of the US citizens a tax cut by putting a heavy tax on the rich and closing corporate loopholes.

If 100 Billion sounds like too much to you, you really don't know very much about the nation's finances. 100Billion is less than ONE percent of our yearly GDP.

I noted with satisfaction that Senator Obama cleaned the floor with McCain.
Everyone I watched the debate with agreed that Obama did a superb job in tying McCain directly to the failed foreign policies of Bush.

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mccain begs off

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