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The Case Against John McCain

 
 
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 09:55 am
This thread is a little experiment of mine - who can lay out the best case as to why McCain should not be President?

I will focus on several different failings he has, but feel free to point out some more to me if you find them.

Let's start off with a good one: he has extremely poor judgment in choosing his associates. While this is not the prime reason McCain should not be president, it is especially relevant, as it points out the lies he has told re: his relationships with lobbyists.

Quote:
The McCain-Burma Connection

This is pretty disturbing:

Quote:
The man picked by the John McCain campaign to run the 2008 Republican National Convention resigned Saturday after a report that his lobbying firm used to represent the military regime in Myanmar.

Doug Goodyear, chief executive of the lobbying firm DCI Group, resigned a few hours after Newsweek posted a report online saying the company was paid $348,000 in 2002 to represent the government in Myanmar, also known as Burma.


Sleazy lobbyists? On the McCain campaign?? You don't say! Still, managing to find someone who's been an advocate for a tyrannical regime is an impressive feat even for McCain.

Update: Commenter ilnoca highlights this post from Marc Ambinder, which reports that Doug Davenport, McCain's regional campaign manager for the mid-Atlantic states, has also resigned because of his past lobbying for Burma. (You really can't trust people named Doug, apparently.) Ambinder also points out that Goodyear became convention CEO after McCain's original choice, Paul Manafort, was passed over because of his own history of close ties to shady foreign governments. Makes you wonder exactly which governments those could be, if Burma isn't enough to raise red flags in the McCain vetting process.

--Josh Patashnik


http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/default.aspx

Does McCain have ties to anyone who isn't corrupt?

Let's not forget that his campaign co-chairs have had significant problems in the past.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/13/mccains-florida-campaign-co-chair-arrested-for-solicitation/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/22/rick-renzi-indicted-mcca_n_87974.html

The whole 'Maverick' angle, the anti-lobbyist angle, is a lie. A pure lie. And McCain WILL be called out on this over and over during this campaign.

Cycloptichorn
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 10:04 am
He will continue bushs' war policies.... that's all that's necessary for him to lose me....
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 10:12 am
Quote:
who can lay out the best case as to why McCain should not be President?


Me. He's an @$$ 'ole. Mad
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 10:16 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
He will continue bushs' war policies.... that's all that's necessary for him to lose me....


An excellent point.

McCain has famously said he'd like to stay in Iraq '100 years' or longer. Now, the Republican party, sensing the extreme error made by McCain, has got their hackles up and claims this is dishonest, that he only wants to stay if things are peaceful.

But things aren't peaceful in Iraq and won't be any time soon. How long does he want to stay, in order to make things peaceful? According to him, long as it takes; this is essentially the same as staying forever.

How does the Iraq question stack up nationally?

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

For over a year (almost two) 2/3rds of Americans have either been dissatisfied or downright angry over the course of the war in Iraq. McCain presents no realistic changes in that situation. He's quite famously said,

Quote:
John McCain said Monday that to win the White House he must convince a war-weary country that U.S. policy in Iraq is succeeding. If he can't, "then I lose. I lose," the Republican said.


He is going to lose for Iraq, if no other issue. I have no idea why more people can't see that this is the case. The war is FAR more unpopular then it was in 2004 and even 2006. It's difficult for me to see how this is going to be a winning issue for McCain, and it's one that he has pinned his hopes of winning upon.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 10:27 am
Re: The Case Against John McCain
Cycloptichorn wrote:


who can lay out the best case as to why McCain should not be President?


I can't think of any reasons why McCain should not be President, in fact he will make a fine president.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 10:29 am
Re: The Case Against John McCain
H2O_MAN wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


who can lay out the best case as to why McCain should not be President?


I can't think of any reasons why McCain should not be President, in fact he will make a fine president.


Thanks for giving us your opinion.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:13 am
"McCain has famously said he'd like to stay in Iraq '100 years' or longer. Now, the Republican party, sensing the extreme error made by McCain, has got their hackles up and claims this is dishonest, that he only wants to stay if things are peaceful. "

And you know it is at the minimum intellectually dishonest or you are just ignorant to the context of the statement.

He NEVER said he would "LIKE TO STAY".

But go ahead. This is gonna be fun

I like the part about McCains "shady friends".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:18 am
woiyo wrote:
"McCain has famously said he'd like to stay in Iraq '100 years' or longer. Now, the Republican party, sensing the extreme error made by McCain, has got their hackles up and claims this is dishonest, that he only wants to stay if things are peaceful. "

And you know it is at the minimum intellectually dishonest or you are just ignorant to the context of the statement.

He NEVER said he would "LIKE TO STAY".

But go ahead. This is gonna be fun

I like the part about McCains "shady friends".


Like to stay, willing to stay, whatever. He wants to stay in Iraq for a long, long time. No argument about that.

There was no context to that statement whatsoever which matters in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:25 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
"McCain has famously said he'd like to stay in Iraq '100 years' or longer. Now, the Republican party, sensing the extreme error made by McCain, has got their hackles up and claims this is dishonest, that he only wants to stay if things are peaceful. "

And you know it is at the minimum intellectually dishonest or you are just ignorant to the context of the statement.

He NEVER said he would "LIKE TO STAY".

But go ahead. This is gonna be fun

I like the part about McCains "shady friends".


Like to stay, willing to stay, whatever. He wants to stay in Iraq for a long, long time. No argument about that.

There was no context to that statement whatsoever which matters in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn



Sure it matters, at least to people who want to be honest in their debate.

Fear not, attached is a 6 min link to the entire question/answer session.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=mccain%2C%20100%20years%20in%20iraq&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:33 am
Zippo wrote:
Quote:
who can lay out the best case as to why McCain should not be President?


Me. He's an @$$ 'ole. Mad


Can't beat that with a stick.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:43 am
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
"McCain has famously said he'd like to stay in Iraq '100 years' or longer. Now, the Republican party, sensing the extreme error made by McCain, has got their hackles up and claims this is dishonest, that he only wants to stay if things are peaceful. "

And you know it is at the minimum intellectually dishonest or you are just ignorant to the context of the statement.

He NEVER said he would "LIKE TO STAY".

But go ahead. This is gonna be fun

I like the part about McCains "shady friends".



Like to stay, willing to stay, whatever. He wants to stay in Iraq for a long, long time. No argument about that.

There was no context to that statement whatsoever which matters in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn



Sure it matters, at least to people who want to be honest in their debate.

Fear not, attached is a 6 min link to the entire question/answer session.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=mccain%2C%20100%20years%20in%20iraq&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv


It doesn't matter. He has said this on more then one occasion, and has not qualified his statement on every occasion.

Here's a video of the many times he's made this stupid statement

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/191902.php

Nice try though, thanks for playing!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:46 am
McCain is going to have an uphill climb regardless of how he actually campaigns.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3774/partisantrackrasmussen0kb6.jpg

This matches the Pew polling showing similar results - the self-identification of Dems over Republicans is WAY up. There are simply less people on his side.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:51 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
"McCain has famously said he'd like to stay in Iraq '100 years' or longer. Now, the Republican party, sensing the extreme error made by McCain, has got their hackles up and claims this is dishonest, that he only wants to stay if things are peaceful. "

And you know it is at the minimum intellectually dishonest or you are just ignorant to the context of the statement.

He NEVER said he would "LIKE TO STAY".

But go ahead. This is gonna be fun

I like the part about McCains "shady friends".



Like to stay, willing to stay, whatever. He wants to stay in Iraq for a long, long time. No argument about that.

There was no context to that statement whatsoever which matters in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn



Sure it matters, at least to people who want to be honest in their debate.

Fear not, attached is a 6 min link to the entire question/answer session.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=mccain%2C%20100%20years%20in%20iraq&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv


It doesn't matter. He has said this on more then one occasion, and has not qualified his statement on every occasion.

Here's a video of the many times he's made this stupid statement

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/191902.php

Nice try though, thanks for playing!

Cycloptichorn


It (context) does not matter?

Well then your statement and opinion shall be considered along the same lines as Zippo the Clown.

If you want to be intellectually honest, there is an opportunity to debate a real difference between Obama and McCain regarding Iraq.

However, that would be unbecoming of a Democratic Partisan.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 11:53 am
Let me clarify - there was nothing in the context of ANY of the times he's made the stupid statement, to make it any less stupid. I wonder if you could point out which part you think excuses it. I doubt you will be able to do so.

It doesn't 'matter' in that the context doesn't help him.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 12:04 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let me clarify - there was nothing in the context of ANY of the times he's made the stupid statement, to make it any less stupid. I wonder if you could point out which part you think excuses it. I doubt you will be able to do so.

It doesn't 'matter' in that the context doesn't help him.

Cycloptichorn


I will not disect words and play your silly game. The live video is all any objective observer needs to see to understand the statement. Wether you agree with the statement is another matter.

As mentioned earlier, there is a real contrast in policies regarding Iraq between McCain and Obama. Be real.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 12:19 pm
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let me clarify - there was nothing in the context of ANY of the times he's made the stupid statement, to make it any less stupid. I wonder if you could point out which part you think excuses it. I doubt you will be able to do so.

It doesn't 'matter' in that the context doesn't help him.

Cycloptichorn


I will not disect words and play your silly game. The live video is all any objective observer needs to see to understand the statement. Wether you agree with the statement is another matter.

As mentioned earlier, there is a real contrast in policies regarding Iraq between McCain and Obama. Be real.


McCain's statement doesn't exonerate him, and the fact is that he made the statement several times in several places; and NONE of what he said exonerates him.

Oh, I agree - there is a major contrast in policies. But not to McCain's benefit, as the majority of Americans disagree with him.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 12:28 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let me clarify - there was nothing in the context of ANY of the times he's made the stupid statement, to make it any less stupid. I wonder if you could point out which part you think excuses it. I doubt you will be able to do so.

It doesn't 'matter' in that the context doesn't help him.

Cycloptichorn


I will not disect words and play your silly game. The live video is all any objective observer needs to see to understand the statement. Wether you agree with the statement is another matter.

As mentioned earlier, there is a real contrast in policies regarding Iraq between McCain and Obama. Be real.


McCain's statement doesn't exonerate him, and the fact is that he made the statement several times in several places; and NONE of what he said exonerates him.

Oh, I agree - there is a major contrast in policies. But not to McCain's benefit, as the majority of Americans disagree with him.

Cycloptichorn


I do not think you understand the differences, else you would have made a better argument.

The case against McCain would be that you would want troop withdrawals from Iraq over a 6 month period and re-deploy them in Afganistan. That basically is Obamas plan. Not a bad plan except, there is no anticipation or discussion on Obamas plan as to what will happen once US Troops leave Iraq.

McCain seems to favor a longer period of US presence using a forward thinking anticipation or worst case scenarios and trying to minimize casualties and maximizing training and support of Iraq troops.

Well, in my opinion, both plans suck! Yet, one of them will inherit this mess and you will need to decide who the stronger person to be the CIC will be.

An inexperienced person or an experienced person.

Just remember, for the last 16 years, we had inexperienced CIC's and look at where they led this Nation.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 12:33 pm
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let me clarify - there was nothing in the context of ANY of the times he's made the stupid statement, to make it any less stupid. I wonder if you could point out which part you think excuses it. I doubt you will be able to do so.

It doesn't 'matter' in that the context doesn't help him.

Cycloptichorn


I will not disect words and play your silly game. The live video is all any objective observer needs to see to understand the statement. Wether you agree with the statement is another matter.

As mentioned earlier, there is a real contrast in policies regarding Iraq between McCain and Obama. Be real.


McCain's statement doesn't exonerate him, and the fact is that he made the statement several times in several places; and NONE of what he said exonerates him.

Oh, I agree - there is a major contrast in policies. But not to McCain's benefit, as the majority of Americans disagree with him.

Cycloptichorn


I do not think you understand the differences, else you would have made a better argument.

The case against McCain would be that you would want troop withdrawals from Iraq over a 6 month period and re-deploy them in Afganistan. That basically is Obamas plan. Not a bad plan except, there is no anticipation or discussion on Obamas plan as to what will happen once US Troops leave Iraq.

McCain seems to favor a longer period of US presence using a forward thinking anticipation or worst case scenarios and trying to minimize casualties and maximizing training and support of Iraq troops.

Well, in my opinion, both plans suck! Yet, one of them will inherit this mess and you will need to decide who the stronger person to be the CIC will be.

An inexperienced person or an experienced person.

Just remember, for the last 16 years, we had inexperienced CIC's and look at where they led this Nation.


Please detail me McCain's experience leading and directing the United States armed forces. Because it seems to me that neither candidate has much experience doing such a thing. McCain certainly has not shown any real grasp of strategy that Obama hasn't.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 12:34 pm
McCain is against due process, habeas corpus and thus for extended Presidential powers that usurp the Constitution. http://www.accuracy.org/newsrelease.php?articleId=1354
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 May, 2008 12:41 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Let me clarify - there was nothing in the context of ANY of the times he's made the stupid statement, to make it any less stupid. I wonder if you could point out which part you think excuses it. I doubt you will be able to do so.

It doesn't 'matter' in that the context doesn't help him.

Cycloptichorn


I will not disect words and play your silly game. The live video is all any objective observer needs to see to understand the statement. Wether you agree with the statement is another matter.

As mentioned earlier, there is a real contrast in policies regarding Iraq between McCain and Obama. Be real.


McCain's statement doesn't exonerate him, and the fact is that he made the statement several times in several places; and NONE of what he said exonerates him.

Oh, I agree - there is a major contrast in policies. But not to McCain's benefit, as the majority of Americans disagree with him.

Cycloptichorn


I do not think you understand the differences, else you would have made a better argument.

The case against McCain would be that you would want troop withdrawals from Iraq over a 6 month period and re-deploy them in Afganistan. That basically is Obamas plan. Not a bad plan except, there is no anticipation or discussion on Obamas plan as to what will happen once US Troops leave Iraq.

McCain seems to favor a longer period of US presence using a forward thinking anticipation or worst case scenarios and trying to minimize casualties and maximizing training and support of Iraq troops.

Well, in my opinion, both plans suck! Yet, one of them will inherit this mess and you will need to decide who the stronger person to be the CIC will be.

An inexperienced person or an experienced person.

Just remember, for the last 16 years, we had inexperienced CIC's and look at where they led this Nation.


Please detail me McCain's experience leading and directing the United States armed forces. Because it seems to me that neither candidate has much experience doing such a thing. McCain certainly has not shown any real grasp of strategy that Obama hasn't.

Cycloptichorn



McCain

Graduate US Naval Acadamy
Active Duty as Pilot
Commanding Officer of Training Squadron
Navy Liaison to US Senate

Obama

(None)
0 Replies
 
 

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