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mccain begs off

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:01 pm
@maporsche,
Most, if not all, law degrees requires studying all aspects of law including tort and criminal law.
barackman28
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:01 pm
@maporsche,
I profoundly disagree. Those who really want to learn about this are directed to Wikipedia--article on "Law and Economics". Under the section "Universities with Law and Economics Programs, we read

Almost every major American Law school offers courses in Law and Economics



and under the section "Influence" we read

Judicial opinions utilize economic analysis and the theories of law and economics with some regularity.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:02 pm
Quote:
[T]here's more outright anger, conflict and uncertainty over this plan than existed midweek. By McCain's original logic, the argument for staying in Washington has gotten stronger, not weaker. Which lends ample support to the notion that this was a stunt all along. [..]

[To those paying superficial attention, it evokes] a sense that the minute McCain hit the ground everything in Washington went to hell in a familiary, absurd, system-is-broken kind of way. And now he's getting out of dodge. Hard to see how that's a net gain for him.

From TNR - sorry, I accidentally closed the window and now I dont remember which post it was.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:05 pm
@maporsche,
this was directed more towards CI. Hard to post on the Iphone
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:05 pm
@nimh,
We'll see some really ridiculous rationalizations for McCain's actions on his attendance and absence on one of this country's major crisis.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
have you studied economics? I've only had 4 college classes so far (I'm an exon major). It's not quite as simple as you all are trying to make it out to be.

Our nations economy and this historic mess we're in is not something Obama could have picked up in any law class
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:10 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

fair enough. So what training does Obama have that would help him understand those theories? He may very well think logically, but that doesn't mean much if he doesn't understand economic theory. Not saying Obama couldn't be an economist; he seems plenty smart enough, but it's not quite as simple as reading an ECO121 book.


Haha, I agree! He's not an economist! But he never claimed to be!

I think Obama is smart enough to understand the economy, but he's never claimed to be an expert. So why would he want to go and insert himself right into the middle of complex economic negotiations? Yesterday's evidence shows that it doesn't neccessarily do any good.

Being a leader sometimes means letting those who do know what they are talking about do the negotiation, and not pretending that you can solve everything....

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:17 pm
@maporsche,
Yes, I've studied economics including macro and micro.

No, economics is an art, not science. That's the reason most so-called experts in economics have different views of this liquidity crisis and how to resolve it.

That's been true as long as I can remember.
0 Replies
 
barackman28
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:20 pm
@squinney,
You are correct, Squinney, in that Gramm is a fraud. His political philosophy stinks but, he knows Economics---perhaps an old fashioned style of Economics.
He and his wife are both PH.D's in Economics.
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I guess your right cyclops (was there ever any doubt). I can't think of one reason Obama would want to talk to the experts, question how they came to their conclusions, hear differing opinions in the room, discuss the downstream impacts with these experts. I'm not sure why he wouldn't just want to wait for a finished bill, not knowing any of the theories behind it, and just vote based on his economic advisors opinion. Not sure why he wouldn't want to understand it for himself.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:22 pm
@barackman28,
Gramm has gone to the Dark Side.

(he's foul)

If yer gonna argue this backwards, I can do that good, too...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:25 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I guess your right cyclops (was there ever any doubt). I can't think of one reason Obama would want to talk to the experts, question how they came to their conclusions, hear differing opinions in the room, discuss the downstream impacts with these experts. I'm not sure why he wouldn't just want to wait for a finished bill, not knowing any of the theories behind it, and just vote based on his economic advisors opinion. Not sure why he wouldn't want to understand it for himself.


So, explain to me why, in this age of teleconferencing and cel phones, why Obama needs to be physically present to understand these things, or to have these conversations. Why would he have to suspend his campaign? Lots of time on the bus and plane to deal with such issues.

I think it's specious to say that Obama doesn't 'know and understand' the theories behind what's going on in the bailout bill. He obviously does, based on his spoken comments and recommendations. He just didn't feel that it was necessary to inject himself into the ongoing debate.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:26 pm
@maporsche,
Are you sure you studied four courses in Economics? Expert economists disagree on most issues that has to do with the economy; there is no scientific formula that one can apply to find the best solutions. They are all educated guesstimates. The reason that is so is simply there are just too many variables in any economy that can be measured accurately, and it doesn't remain static.
barackman28
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:26 pm
@maporsche,
If you read the background on Senator Obama you will discover several things.

l. His professors at Columbia noted that he was one of the best students they had ever had.

2. He was elected( after having good enough grades to be in the top quarter of the Harvard Law School class during his freshman year and being in the top quarter of those freshman Harvard Law Students after a writing exam) as President of his Law Review.

If you know anything about the top 25% of the students at Harvard Law School you will know that they are brightest of the brightest.

I am sure that Senator Obama understands basic Economic theory quite well.

That is why hewill eviscerate McCain in the Economics debate!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
In this vein, from John Judis at TNR:

Quote:
26.09.2008
Putting Country Last

I don't know John McCain as well as David Brooks does. In fact, I don't know him personally at all. But I covered his 2000 and 2008 primary campaigns, and I spent considerable time interviewing him, including several long interviews I did for a profile in 2006. As I wrote in that profile, I liked and respected McCain, and in 2000, I urged the magazine to endorse jointly McCain and Al Gore during the primaries. He was, I thought, basically a moderate Republican (I never took his or Chuck Hagel's positions on social issues seriously). But above all, he was, as he claimed during this campaign, a politician who would put "country first."

By this year, of course, I was far less enthusiastic about a McCain presidency. McCain boasts of his prescience on the surge, but the surge took place four years after a needless war that McCain helped start--a war that devastated a country, destabilized a region, undermined America's standing in the world (and I am not merely speaking of our moral standing), and killed and maimed thousands and thousands of people. It is the kind of an action for which your average politician or general (I am thinking of the Argentinean generals who masterminded the Falklands war) would be banished from public life. It should have been the end of McCain and Bush and all those people.

I never doubted, however, that McCain's motives in pushing America into war were honorable. Nor do I question his motives in pushing Georgia into NATO or in rattling the sabers against Iran. I question his judgment and wouldn't want him as president. But I do question his motives in inserting himself into the attempt by the Treasury Department, Federal Reserve, and the Congressional leadership (excluding the usual suspects from the Republican House delegation) to fashion a plan for preventing a Wall Street crash. He has shown a willingness to put the success of his campaign ahead of the country's welfare. And it's not over a relatively minor matter--like offshore drilling or creationism in schools.

I know there are economists, some of whom I respect, that think this financial crisis will blow over, that it's a crisis in the financial superstructure that won't ultimately affect the country's industrial base. I have never understood the post-1980 stock market very well, but I know something about economic history, and I know that at a certain point, a financial crisis can get out of hand and lead to a credit crunch that will depress the industrial base and set off a vicious cycle of unemployment. I also know a little bit about international economic history--enough at least to appreciate what would happen if nations began to abandon the dollar the way they abandoned the British pound eighty years ago. As Paul Krugman--who has been writing about the mortgage mess for years--has argued, it is not worth taking the chance that this crisis will blow over.
That's a long way of saying that it is simply unpatriotic--it's an insult to flag, country, and all the things that McCain claims to hold dear--for McCain to hold this financial crisis hostage to his political ambitions. McCain doesn't know a thing about finance and is no position to help work out an agreement. If we do suffer a serious bank run, or a run on the dollar, it can be laid directly at his feet. As I said to friends last night, if McCain had been president at this point, I would have wanted to impeach him.

That brings me back to David Brooks' column. David thinks that beneath the surface of McCain the craven campaigner, that the man who nominated an ill-prepared Sarah Palin as his possible successor and has lent his energies to blocking a financial bailout, there still sits a "real McCain" who could govern fairly and effectively as president. I doubt it. I really doubt it. Whether because of age or overreaching ambition, McCain has become the kind of man he earlier railed against. He has become the Bush of 2000 against whom he campaigned or the Senate and House Republicans whom he despised. His defeat is now imperative.

--John B. Judis


Couldn't agree more.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
barackman28
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
and many other courses--including some at Yale Law School like:

l. Federal Income Tax--(yes, it is a course at Yale Law School)

2.Business Organization and Activity (Yes, it is a course at Yale Law School)

3. Law and Economics of Corporate Control(Yes, it is a course at Yale Law School)

4. Trusts and Estates( Yes, it is a course at Yale Law School)

I don't think any student would do well in the courses above without a basic understanding of Economics.

Note No. 3 especially---LAW AND ECONOMICS OF CORPORATE CONTROL.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Obama seems to understand more about the economics about this bailout than McCain ever will; that's the reason why McCain charged into Washington DC while Obama did not offer details on how this problem can be resolved. It's not only about the money, but the impact of how that money is used and what benefit that money will accrue to the taxpayers - and not the speculators that gambled us into this situation. It's very complex, and congress and the committee haven't presented or reviewed all of those variables that are necessary before making a decision. To rush into this can create more problems than it solves.

My thumbs up goes to Obama.
barackman28
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
How do you know? You have said that economists disagree on almost everything? Do you have special knowledge? I dolikeone of your statements.
We can't know anything precisely since everything is always changing. A perfect excuse for doing nothing. But SenatorObama will take care of that when he is elected President-PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:52 pm
@barackman28,
The best any one person can do is to understand the effects of macroeconomics while getting some expert advise on how to best resolve economic problems. They will always be guesses, because there is no tool that can calculate future economic activity or results. It's a big responsibility for anyone that takes over the helm of any large company, but the good ones knows how to play the lows and highs while maintaining a healthy cash position. The title of CEO does not mean they know what is the best moves or actions. Even then, some unforeseen crisis may destroy a good company, because changes happened too quickly.

Remember when there was a scare on Tylenol? J&J quickly took action by telling consumers about it, made refunds, and took them off the shelves and set safety seals on all their bottles. That was not only genius, but it was good for both the consumers and the company. After all these years, I still trust J&J to do the right thing. That's the best PR they can have.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:52 pm
@barackman28,
Yer arguing backwards again...

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
 

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