29
   

FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:28 pm
@sozobe,
Then why has a copy of that document not been taken to the judge? That would seem to be such a logical and simple thing to do.

For what it is worth, I do not expect any of this to prevent Obama from being the next President of the United States. I think it is probably true that he was born in Hawaii as he has said. But providing 'proof' of that only to leftwing or Obama-friendly groups to examine is not helping put the rumors to rest.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
And why hasn't the campaign simply produced that actual certificate to the judge to put that lawsuit to rest?

Because it is not the job of the campaign or a lawyer to provide any evidence on a lawsuit until all the motions have been given and the court has allowed the collection of evidence. Nor will a court accept evidence until it has ruled the case can go forward.

At present, the court is waiting for Berg's legal response to the motion to dismiss. Everyone expects a dismissal after that because court cases do not proceed on just allegation. The problem is Berg has presented no actual evidence to support his allegation in his filings. Without evidence from Berg that is substantial and believable the court could care less about a birth certificate because Berg has nothing to support his allegation.

Thanks for promoting the idea that conservatives are ignorant when it comes to reality as well as the law.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Then why has a copy of that document not been taken to the judge? That would seem to be such a logical and simple thing to do.


No, it sounds like a stupid thing to do. It legitimizes the false attacks of the mouth-breathers on the right wing. It wouldn't end the complaints either, for they are not logical, but emotional. How can you think this would be a good idea, politically?

Look at the situation now: Obama is cruising to what looks like a victory, and nobody gives a damn about this 'fake birth certificate' issue besides far-right wing blogs. It isn't going to be on the news, b/c it's a stupid attempt to disqualify the winning team and has already been debunked. You guys can keep yelling about it all you like, and you will continue to lose just the same. So why should Obama give legitimacy to this stupid ****?

I'm sure by next week it'll be some other attempt to DQ him right before the election, but pardon us if we don't get too worried about that one either.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
And you think they should be allowed?

How inconsiderate do you really want to portray yourself as Fox?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:41 pm
I think it still true that any birth certificate record of any American born in America is accessible, at the appropriate municipal government office, to other Americans who asks that office to let them see it.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:50 pm
This is just another episode of the Three Stooges in an attempt to distract people from GOTV efforts.


http://mediamatters.org/items/200810230020

Conservative media figures allege Obama's Hawaii trip is about discredited birth-certificate rumors, not his ailing grandmother

Summary: Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh, and Jerome Corsi suggested or asserted that the true purpose of Sen. Barack Obama's current trip to Hawaii is not to visit his ailing grandmother, as Obama claims, but rather to address rumors -- widely debunked -- that Obama has failed to produce a valid U.S. birth certificate. However, in addition to FactCheck.org and a Hawaiian Health Department official, even Corsi's employer, the right-wing website WorldNetDaily, has reportedly determined that the birth certificate provided by the Obama campaign is authentic.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 02:54 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I think it still true that any birth certificate record of any American born in America is accessible, at the appropriate municipal government office, to other Americans who asks that office to let them see it.


I don't think so, though most states are pretty lax. I would think they would be careful not releasing a birth certificate to just anybody in this day and age of identify theft, but I ordered a new birth certificate for my husband because the one he had lacked a state seal and the post office wouldn't accept it for his passport application. I sent them $5 and they sent it right out no questions asked.

I have several times had to order certified copies of the kids' birth certificates for various purposes over the years and all I needed to get them was a check. Of course the name on the check was also on the birth certificates.

Here is what Hawaii says:
Quote:
Comments: Hawaii state law limits access to birth records of 75 years or less to the person named on the certificate, the parents, descendants, spouse, legal guardians and individuals who share a common ancestor (i.e. cousins, grandparent, aunts/uncles) with the person named on the certificate. Birth records more than 75 years old are open to the public.

With your request, include as much as you can of the following: the full name listed on the certificate, the month, day & year of birth, the city or town and the island where the birth occurred, the full name of each parent (including mother's maiden name), the reason for your request, your relationship to the person named on the certificate and your name, address and telephone number


I'm ignoring the snottier comments from the juvenile peanut gallery here, but the issue of the Constitutionally mandated natural born citizen status for the President is sufficiently important that any suggestion or impression of secrecy or deception or less than forthrightness is reason to raise eyebrows. I don't care how many frivolous lawsuits have been filed by anybody.

(I don't accept MediaMatters as a credible source for anything, however.)
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre... there hasn't BEEN any "less than forthrightness"!!

This first came up and DailyKos asked for the birth certificate -- a photo of that was provided. That all took place within 24 hours or so.

That tamped things down for the time being, then it was raised again, with an emphasis on "well, it's only an image, maybe it was faked!" This time the Obama campaign provided access to the actual document.

Again, FactCheck is just not the implement of the left that you make it out to be. There are only two options here:

1.) FactCheck.org is telling the truth and this rumor has been conclusively put to rest.

2.) FactCheck.org is lying.

Again, you're really out in cuckooland if you're suggesting #2 here.
Foxfyre
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Attention: those who are making reasoned arguments on behalf of Obama here without throwing in a lot of ad hominems and stupid non sequitur innuendo do not qualify as members of the juvenile peanut gallery.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

I'm ignoring the snottier comments from the juvenile peanut gallery here, but the issue of the Constitutionally mandated natural born citizen status for the President is sufficiently important that any suggestion or impression of secrecy or deception or less than forthrightness is reason to raise eyebrows. I don't care how many frivolous lawsuits have been filed by anybody.


That's the thing, isn't it? There is no suggestion or impression of secrecy or deception in this case. Just allegations of that from extremely partisan right-wingers; and the non-partisan 'fact checkers' who looked at the issue found no merit in it whatsoever.

Complaints that Factcheck.org is ran by Liberals are pretty funny, but stupid.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:07 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:

Foxfyre... there hasn't BEEN any "less than forthrightness"!!

This first came up and DailyKos asked for the birth certificate -- a photo of that was provided. That all took place within 24 hours or so.

That tamped things down for the time being, then it was raised again. This time the Obama campaign provided access to the actual document.

Again, FactCheck is just not the implement of the left that you make it out to be. There are only two options here:

1.) FactCheck.org is telling the truth and this rumor has been conclusively put to rest.

2.) FactCheck.org is lying.

Again, you're really out in cuckooland if you're suggesting #2 here.


Daily Kos is such an extreme leftwing and often hateful rumor spreading entity that to use it as proof of anything would show how out of touch the Obama campaign is. Who on Daily Kos even cares whether Obama is a citizen or not? So long as he is ultra liberal and not a Republican they won't say or do anything that could hurt him in any way.

Factcheck.org also is suspect not because it doesn't do some good work and makes at least some effort to be balanced because it does. But the fact that it is part of an entity on which Obama has sat or the board of directors and has also funneled government monies to makes it less reliable as an unbiased source. I don't think it is lying. But I don't think it would go out of its way to do much fact checking on Obama's birth certificate either.

Why not instead present a certified copy of the birth certificate to groups not associated with the extreme Left or those that have not received favors from Obama for examination?

I'll check out the Worldnet Daily source though. That source certainly isn't in bed with the liberal left.

sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
It went out of its way.

Click here:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

If you don't think they're lying, then there's nothing to argue about. The rumor was put to rest by FactCheck.org... conclusively.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:09 pm
@parados,
Quote:
How is that permanent conservative government working out for you Spendi?


Pretty good I would say.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:15 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Attention: those who are making reasoned arguments on behalf of Obama here without throwing in a lot of ad hominems and stupid non sequitur innuendo do not qualify as members of the juvenile peanut gallery.


Um, Foxfyre, I was referring to the three names I bolded and enlarged as the Three Stooges, not you.

If you included yourself in the count, I'm sorry, it wasn't intended that way.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I'm ignoring the snottier comments from the juvenile peanut gallery here,

Snottier? Who seemed to be demanding that the media be allowed to go along when Obama went to visit his ailing grandmother?

I called you inconsiderate for doing that. I don't give a damn if you think I was being snotty. You are being idiotic for demanding intrusion into what could be end of life issues for the Obama family.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:27 pm
@Butrflynet,
From The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Obama-Purchases-R.jpg

Obama purchases ad space on the side of the Straight Talk Express


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:29 pm
@parados,
para-- is there a smear going on about the certificate on the web site being a possible mock-up or am I reading too much into it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:35 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

para-- is there a smear going on about the certificate on the web site being a possible mock-up or am I reading too much into it.


No, you have it right; though there's no actual evidence to back it up. Just another flavor of 'Obama's a Muslim/Terrorist/Something Different and Scary.'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:36 pm
@spendius,
The problem is some people won't accept Obama's birth certificate because they weren't there to physically witness the birth themselves.

The birth certificate is genuine and many news organizations have examined it. It is nothing more than people that claim to be reasonable acting in a completely unreasonable fashion because their viewpoint is being rejected by so many others.
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 24 Oct, 2008 03:51 pm
Buttrfly, I wasn't including you in the peanut gallery either. Nor were any of the three radio accounts I heard yesterday among those you listed. I'm just looking for something other than Obama-sympathetic witnesses to defend him on this.

Re Worldnet Daily here is their most recent entry:
Quote:
Obama 'admits' Kenyan birth?
Campaign doesn't respond to claims in lawsuit over birth certificate
Posted: October 21, 2008
9:22 pm Eastern
By Drew Zahn
© 2008 WorldNetDaily

Pennsylvania Democrat Philip J. Berg, who filed a lawsuit demanding Sen. Barack Obama present proof of his American citizenship, now says that by failing to respond Obama has legally "admitted" to the lawsuit's accusations, including the charge that the Democratic candidate was born in Mombosa, Kenya.

As WND reported, Berg filed suit in U.S. District Court in August, alleging Obama is not a natural-born citizen and is thus ineligible to serve as president of the United States. Though Obama has posted an image of a Hawaii birth certificate online, Berg demands that the court verify the original document, which the Obama campaign has not provided.

Now Berg cites Rule 36 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, which states that unless the accused party provides written answer or objection to charges within 30 days, the accused legally admits the matter.

Since Obama has only filed motions to dismiss and has not actually answered the charges in the lawsuit, Berg claims, according to Rule 36, Obama has legally admitted he is not a natural-born citizen.

Now Berg is asking the court for a formal declaration of Obama's admission and asking the Democratic National Committee for another presidential candidate.

In a statement released today, Berg argues that he filed Requests for Admissions on Sept. 15, meaning Obama had until Oct. 15 to answer or face the consequences of Rule 36.

"Obama and the DNC 'admitted,' by way of failure to timely respond to Requests for Admissions, all of the numerous specific requests in the Federal lawsuit," Berg's statement reads. "Obama is 'not qualified' to be president and therefore Obama must immediately withdraw his candidacy for president and the DNC shall substitute a qualified candidate."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78671


But apparently Berg isn't the only one:

Quote:
Obama's birth stirs legal action in Washington
Posted at 4:48 pm by Jerry Cornfield

Is Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama a natural born U.S. citizen?

His critics and his foes have spent a good deal of time raising doubt and spreading rumors that he’’s not.

Today, Steve Marquis of Fall City filed a lawsuit in King County Superior Court directing Secretary of State Sam Reed to get the proof "" or remove Obama’’s name from ballots.

Here is his press release.

He argues in a 30-page document:

“To avert likely civil unrest and a constitutional crisis……this complaint seeks to resolve such complaints prior to the election. It was incumbent on the candidates to present such documentation, but to date Mr. Obama has failed to do so.

Obama sought to put down this pesty rumor when he posted a picture of his birth certificate online here.

The respected FactCheck.org run by the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania examined the document and concluded here that there’’s no doubt he was born in Hawaii in 1961.

Reed forwarded the matter to the Attorney General’’s Office. Ballots are still slated to be mailed this week.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20081014/BLOG13/810149964


And is it possible that Obama timed his trip to Hawaii and announced that the press corps would not be allowed to accompany him on private business had something to do with this?

Note this item in the Request for Relief following the initial lawsuit:
3. Plaintiff is physically present in Hawai'i and is available to appear before the Court in person at any hearing on or before October 22, 2008.

Quote:
Barack Obama Birth Certificate Hawaii lawsuit documents
2008-10-18 20:30:24 - Copies of documents on file in Honolulu Circuit court
ANDY MARTIN
Post Office Box 1851
New York, NY 10150-1851
Toll-free tel. (866) 706-2639
Toll-free fax (866) 707-2639
Temporary Hawai'i
tel. (917) 664-9329
Plaintiff pro se

CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FIRST CIRCUIT
STATE OF HAWAII
CIVIL NUMBER: 08-1-2147-10
(Declaratory Judgment)
Judge Ayabe

COMPLAINT FOR
DECLARATORY JUDGMENT;
EXHIBIT 1: SUMMONS

ANDY MARTIN,
Plaintiff,
vs.
LINDA LINGLE, in her
Official capacity as Governor
Of the State of Hawai'i,
DR. CHIYOME FUKINO, in her
official capacity as Director
of the Department of Health,
Defendants.
_
COMPLAINT FOR DECLARATORY JUDGMENT

Plaintiff ANDY MARTIN ('Plaintiff'), pro se, alleges in his Complaint for Declaratory Judgment against the Defendants as follows:

PARTIES, JURISDICTION AND VENUE

Plaintiff ANDY MARTIN is the author of a book on Senator Barack Obama ('Senator Obama'). He has also been writing columns and commentary about the senator for over four (4) years.

Defendants LINDA LINGLE and DR. CHIYOME FUKINO are Governor and Director of the Department of Health, respectively.

This Complaint for Declaratory Relief and these proceedings are instituted pursuant to §§ 632-1, Hawai'i Revised Statutes.

Venue is proper in this Court pursuant to §§ 603-36, Hawaii Revised Statutes.

STATEMENT OF CLAIM

1. Plaintiff requested a certified copy of the birth certificate of Senator Obama from the Department of Health and tendered the requisite fee.

2. Defendants refused to provide a copy of said certificate, invoking the confidentiality statutes of the State.

3. The issue of the Senator's birth certificate has become a controversial topic of intense national speculation.

4. As an author who strives for factual accuracy and attempts to conduct thorough research Plaintiff wants a copy of the Senator's birth certificate attested to by the State and not a 'certificate' which is posted on a web site and which has been debunked as possibly having been altered.

5. One of the more literate and temperate analyses of the unlawfulness of the Defendants' refusal to issue certified copies of the birth certificate is contained in Exhibit 1 attached hereto.

6. To the extent that the Defendants' files contain or retain original supporting data for the birth certificate, Plaintiff asks that he also be supplied with that information and/or material as well.

7. It is axiomatic that the birth certificate of a presidential candidate is a document of crucial public concern and significance.

8. While Hawai'i statutes call for a balancing or weighing test where production is considered by a court, most respectfully Plaintiff submits that the balance falls entirely on the side of disclosure where the original birth certificate of a presidential candidate is concerned.

DECLARATORY RELIEF SOUGHT

9. Based on the relevant statutes and constitutional law, including Article One, Section 4 ('freedom of the press') and §§ 92F-15 (e) and §§ 338-18 (a) (9), Plaintiff asks that the Court direct and order defendants to turn over forthwith a copy of Senator Obama's birth certificate and related files and records, and without any delay.

WHEREFORE, Plaintiff Andy Martin prays for relief as follows:

A. For a declaration by this Court that Plaintiff is an author and writer and is a person to whom the birth certificate of Senator Obama can and should properly be delivered forthwith;

B. For such other relief as this Court deems just and equitable.
Dated: Honolulu, Hawai'i, October 17, 2008

Respectfully submitted,
ANDY MARTIN
Plaintiff Pro se
ANDY MARTIN
Post Office Box 1851
New York, NY 10150-1851
Toll-free tel. (866) 706-2639
Toll-free fax (866) 707-2639
Temporary Hawai'i
tel. (917) 664-9329
Plaintiff pro se

CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FIRST CIRCUITSTATE OF HAWAII

CIVIL NUMBER: 08-1-2147-10 BIA

EMERGENCY MOTION
FOR ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE

ANDY MARTIN,
Plaintiff,
vs.
LINDA LINGLE, in her
Official capacity as Governor
Of the State of Hawai'i,
DR. CHIYOME FUKINO, in her
official capacity as Director
of the Department of Health,

Defendants.
_

EMERGENCY MOTION FOR ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE

Plaintiff ANDY MARTIN ('Plaintiff'), pro se, respectfully moves this Court on an emergency basis for an Order to Show Cause ('OSC') directing the defendants to show cause on or before October 22, 2008 at a hearing before this Court why the relief requested by the Plaintiff should not be granted.

1. This lawsuit does not involve complicated or disputed facts.

2. Time is of the essence because Plaintiff would like to write columns and articles about the Birth Certificate before November 3, 2008.

3. Plaintiff is physically present in Hawai'i and is available to appear before the Court in person at any hearing on or before October 22, 2008.

4. There is intense national interest in access to an officially certified copy of the birth certificate in question as well as any related supporting information which the defendants may have in their possession.

5. A proposed OSC is attached to this Emergency Motion.

Dated: Honolulu, Hawai'i, October 17, 2008

Respectfully submitted,
ANDY MARTIN
Plaintiff Pro se
http://www.pr-inside.com/barack-obama-birth-certificate-hawaii-lawsuit-r868547.htm
 

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