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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 04:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
If Obama did not have a problem with any of those people before they became political liabilities to him, how much of their values and world view does he tolerate? How much does he share? There is nothing in some of his writings and some of his more unguarded campaign rhetoric that offers me encouragement that he he is not a radical liberal and whether or not he shares the views of the more hateful radicals, it is not comforting to know that he tolerated them out of expediency.


There are several problems inherent in your questions.
1. You have not established a relationship other than a passing one for most of them.
2. Without a meaningful relationship established there is nothing to jettison for political purposes.
3. You have not established other than your "beliefs" what the world view is of the people you listed. Your beliefs may seem valid to you but they are only your opinion and don't reflect the reality of what can be shown.
4. Without establishing beliefs you can't raise the question of what Obama shares. You are not questioning if Obama shares the beliefs of the persons in question but rather questioning of Obama shares what YOU think those people belief. That is why we have accused you of being vague.
5. You use emotional terms to try to hide that you have no facts. "hateful liberals." "Obama worshipers."
6. You have admitted that you don't know the real facts but then you ask questions that presume you do know facts
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 04:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
They were not simple questions Cyclo. I explained that as simply as I could. You saying my explanations were "swishy" does not make them simple questions although I do understand why you would think it would do so. Playing with too many toy soldiers in the late teenage years is the usual reason but I'll allow there might others of a less innocent nature.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 05:01 pm
@spendius,
Anyway--according to a Newsnight report tonight from inside America, the winner will be who blocks the most votes rather than who wins them. And in which states. It seems ID requirements and voting machine "logistics" render all the arguments superfluous.

By the time the report ended I thought they were going to recommend U.N. supervision of the election but they didn't so I suppose we were meant to imply that's what they meant.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 06:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I have no clue what ideologies or beliefs Obama's association with Ayers imparts to him. That was a point which I made quite clear.

Clear as mud.
Quote:
And I think it probable that Obama overlooked all of that in order to garner whatever favors he could from Ayers.

What favors did he garner from Ayers? I halfway agree with you. I believe that Obama overlooked Ayers past because he recognized him as someone who had/has a huge contribution to make in the field of education. I believe he recognizes him as an expert in his field, which he is.

Quote:
How much does Obama tolerate the attitudes and beliefs and activities of all those people I named in my post to Parados--even though he says I did not name them? They were just a page or two back.

Sounds like a good question for Obama, but really, how many other people's beliefs does he have to answer for? One of the people you named was Louis Farrakhan. Did Obama even know him?

Quote:
There is nothing in some of his writings and some of his more unguarded campaign rhetoric that offers me encouragement that he he is not a radical liberal and whether or not he shares the views of the more hateful radicals, it is not comforting to know that he tolerated them out of expediency.

What is a radical liberal?

Quote:
These are legitimate questions. And I do not want a President who embraces or is even willing to tolerate the hateful views of those people I named. That he did not repudiate a single one of them until they became political liabilities to him is not reassuring. I don't want that kind of President.

Do you think you can sum up a person's contributions to society based on one or two of their ideas? There is no reason to believe that Obama knew every single opinion or idea about everyone he ever knew. You have Obama's ideas -- he is forthright about them. He has advisers and people that he looks to for policy advice. None of the people you listed are among them.

Quote:
Now please answer my questions or this discussion is over.

I don't do ultimatums, and I'm losing interest.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 10:49 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay guys. Cyclop is just too tedious with the same old boring insults. Freeduck and Debra can't seem to focus on the subject. Parados is incapable of reading the posts I direct to him. CI has no clue what the discussion is even about as usual. And Kicky for whatever reason--perhaps to cover his own feelings of inadequacy? I don't know--pops in to say the most hateful thing he can think up.

You all seem to be at the frantic-I-can't-dispute-what-she-says-so-let's-say-as-many-rude -and-insulting-things-as-we-can-think-up-to-her phase which signals to me that I won.

Hopefully somebody will show up who actually wishes to discuss the concepts. Or not. You guys are no competition at all. Ya'll have a great day now.


Foxfyre, following in the footsteps of Phil Gramm, is calling us out as a "community of whiners." After all, Foxfyre started this thread and she wants us to follow where she leads us. The problem, however, is that we are independent thinkers. Following in the footsteps of Joe Biden, I believe this thread needs more than a willfully blind and loyal foot soldier in McCain's campaign of talking points--this thread needs a wise leader. After all, do we want the next 32 and a half pages to be like the last 65 pages????

We're having a thread meltdown. Foxfyre portrays Obama has possibly the most dangerous candidate to ever run for the office of the presidency based solely on his associations. Yet, she refuses to acknowledge that McCain's and Palin's associations are far more nefarious. When we ask why we should be more concerned about Obama's associations than we are about McCain's associations, she calls us rude. She alleges that we cannot dispute her assertion, declares herself the winner, and stomps off in search of people who will drink her Kool-aid without question.

Alas, I must ask: Will we see meaningful change in the pages ahead--or will we see more of the same?
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 11:12 pm
Upon being bailed out of the financial pooper at taxpayer expense, AIG executives threw themselves a party that cost us $400,000. I hate to be a party pooper, but what the heck?

From the debate:

Quote:
OBAMA: Now, step one was a rescue package that was passed last week. We've got to make sure that works properly. And that means strong oversight, making sure that investors, taxpayers are getting their money back and treated as investors.

It means that we are cracking down on CEOs and making sure that they're not getting bonuses or golden parachutes as a consequence of this package. And, in fact, we just found out that AIG, a company that got a bailout, just a week after they got help went on a $400,000 junket.

And I'll tell you what, the Treasury should demand that money back and those executives should be fired. But that's only step one. The middle-class need a rescue package. And that means tax cuts for the middle-class.

0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 11:26 pm
Obama on AIG’s $400,000 party: ‘Fire the scoundrels!’
October 7th, 2008, 9:37 pm ·

Quote:
The first question of tonight’s presidential debate went to Sen. Barack Obama, and conjured a genuine OC-grown controversy. Talking about the $700 billion Wall Street bailout plan, Obama said:

“We have to make sure it works properly….That means strong oversight…it means we are cracking down on CEOs and making sure that they are not getting bonuses or golden parachutes as a consequence of this package.

“In fact, we just found that AIG - a company that got a bailout - just a week after they got help, went on a $400,000 junket.

“I tell you what. Treasury should demand that money back, and those executives should be fired.”

The Watchdog broke the AIG story on Oct. 2:

Less than two weeks after Uncle Sam gave American International Group (AIG) an $85 billion loan - staving off financial collapse - execs from one of its insurance subsidiaries, AIG American General, gathered for a conference at the uber-swank St. Regis Monarch Beach Resort, billed as “California’s only Mobil Travel Guide Five-Star Resort,” where ocean-view rooms start at $565 a night and “world class luxury” is the rule.

Today, thanks to Rep. Henry Waxman, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, we have the bill for the junket. Total: $443,344.


LINK: WATCHDOG--Your Tax Dollars at Work

While regular people are losing their homes, their pensions, their jobs (and while are some are committing suicide), the AIG executives are spending "our tax dollars" like water flowing from a faucet.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 04:40 am
@Debra Law,
Debra- I understand your failure to comment on my post about possible election fraud rendering all these arguments superfluous but regarding this $443,344. you are thrumming about could you explain where it is now in view of the obvious scientific fact that the bodily satisfactions of the participants in the junket can't possibly add up to much due to the limited capacity of stomachs etc.

It must be somewhere.

I feel that the St. Regis Monarch Beach Resort couldn't subsist on this one event so what has happened there on previous days and what will be happening on subsequent days.

Economics is not the emotional subject you have, following in the footsteps of Mr Obama, attempted to make it by the expedient of taking advantage of what you must perceive to be the ignorance of A2Kers.

I know that having a suck on the Puritan udder is all the rage at the moment but that's not economics.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 06:29 am
@Debra Law,
Quote:
Alas, I must ask: Will we see meaningful change in the pages ahead--or will we see more of the same?


That's partly up to you Debra. When you respond to my posts above I might think you are interested in some "meaningful change" rather than simply talking about being. I'm getting the sense that the trivial points you are making are only thought of as being important because you think you are important and thus your points are important logically in that circle.

Will election fraud, as portrayed on Newsnight, be the decisive factor and where is the $443 grand now?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 06:52 am
@spendius,
These are the first three paragraphs of an article by Ms Imelda Knight in The Sunday Times.

Quote:
Years ago I used to know a couple whose party trick was to get their infant child to come downstairs when they had guests for supper. Everyone had to shush as the child was asked how planes stayed up in the sky. “Aerodynamics,” he would lisp, aged two. The parents would stand there beaming with pride as the assorted guests tried not to throw up " or maybe it was just me, and the others were in fact green with envy.

Obviously the little boy wasn’t precociously au fait with the intricacies of velocity and subsonic flow " he had just been taught to parrot a word that made his parents feel good. Everyone would murmur things such as “so clever” and “you’ve got a genius on your hands” and then the child would bumble back off to his cot.

No one is keen on encouraging a child to be dim. But the thing about pushy parents is that their pushiness is often entirely and poignantly about their own insecurities and has very little to do with the child’s desires or wellbeing.


I get a very strong sense that the method described permeates the whole of American education. That talking about quantum mechanics or evolution theory is sufficient to have everybody believe the speaker is up to speed on such matters. It's a load of bollocks actually.


Asherman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 09:40 am
@Debra Law,
A group of top AIG management staged some sort of conference at a luxury hotel/resort a couple of weeks after the Federal government, the taxpayers, provided billions to avert financial crisis. Reportedly the cost of that conference was over $ 443K, and one doesn’t have to look far to find outraged candidates and citizens. There are demands that AIG and the executives be punished. “Make them pay back the money, and fire those who attended the meeting.” On its face that might seem a reasonable reaction, but is it?

Was the event illegal? Apparently no laws were broken by the company in assembling its executives in the wake of the catastrophic credit crisis. Surely no one would agree that the government should have the right to determine such details as what/where/when business meetings should be legally held. Think of how invasive of liberty that power would be. Joe Public owns and operates a small/mid-sized business, but has to get government permission before assembling his managers and supervisors for a weekend of intense team-building. Absurd, isn’t it. But, some would say it would be different if Joe Public’s business depended upon taxpayer money to operate. That might be a persuasive argument, if we clearly understand that Joe Public’s business has been nationalized, and is now a part of a socialized economic system. Joe Public, in this case, is no longer the owner of his own business, but is merely the manager for the new owner, the federal bureaucracy. No one has gone so far, yet, to suggest that the capitalist system that has prevailed and served this nation so well, should be replaced by a centralized socialist economy.

We aren’t told what the agenda for the meeting/conference, or whatever, was. Did they discuss the decisions and events that led their company into trouble, or how best to utilize the taxpayer’s money to repair the damage? We don’t know, do we just how much of the time was spent during this gathering focused on minimizing the effects on AIG, and protecting their stockholders. The presumption is that the AIG managers met for purely social celebration; that they spent a few days gloating over how cleverly they put one over on the taxpayers and government while wallowing in excess. Doubtless those executives weren’t staying at the Motel Six, and they certainly enjoyed the luxuries that wealthy top executives have come to expect in our society. They obviously ate well, slept on great beds in nice rooms, and spent time away from business at the pool, in the sauna, or on the masseuse’s table. After the tumultuous weeks and month leading up to AIG’s immanent failure, those executives were working under unbelievable stress, and it shouldn’t be surprising that they leapt at the chance to unwind. We don’t know how many executives attended this notorious event, but it wouldn’t take very many to run up a $400K tab at a luxury hotel used for a business conference. A three day conference for 100 executives would cost about $4,430 each, or $1,476 per executive day. Not cheap by any means, but not nearly so out of line as the total might suggest to some folks. The company, who presumably picked up the tab, did nothing illegal.

However, spending that $443K had the effect of projecting the image of business executives that is so beloved of the Left. Arrogant, greedy and intemperate old men whose sole purpose and joy in life is to exploit the working classes. There certainly are such people in the world, but most folks are just doing the best they can to live up to their responsibilities in a complex and unforgiving world. Top executives of major firms responsible for managing the assets of investors worth many billions of dollars are very well paid, and that’s a nettle under the blanket for those who believe that no one should have or own more than any other person. A manager/executive’s compensation is negotiated between the individual and his employers. Manager’s don’t belong to unions, but they do belong to an “old boy network” that serves much the same purpose. After the first million, or so, the money is almost secondary to the manager’s need to firmly establish his/her position among others in similar positions. Why work for $1m, when your opposite number in Corp. X is currently making $5m? Is any manager/executive “worth” some millions per year? Who is to say, but those who employ the manager/executive? The Boards of Directors represent the investors, and the investors’ care less about what anyone is paid than they do in the yield on their investment.

In a socialist system, the central bureaucracy decides how much everyone earns … from the top executive to the least skilled worker with a week on the job. Experience has shown that is no panacea for inequity and unfair compensation. Graft, corruption, greed, arrogance, intemperance, cronyism, etc., are even more evident in Socialist or Religious Dictatorships than they are in New York, or London. It may be of some solace to those who have little initiative, prudence, or ambition to bring everyone down to their level, but it is far better, in my estimation, to encourage everyone to aspire to wealth and property. Humans aren’t angels, and trying to make them so is a dangerous route for any government to take. We all look out for our families and ourselves first. We want to be secure in our possessions and no matter how much we might have we tend to want more. That’s a fact of life that ultimately undermines every leveler’s philosophy.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 10:23 am
@spendius,
I know you all think I'm a member of the awkward squad but I think the psychological categories involved in my last two posts are the root cause of this financial mess.

It is self evident that Veblen's dictum that "Waste=Status and Use= Odium", as outlined in the Theory of the Leisure Class, is a scientific fact. But he was talking about a small group of rich people, mainly the females. Now that the idea that waste= status and use= odium has been adopted by millions, as it has, then "asserting" that waste is respectable and admiring it can have no other outcome.

I can understand that those holding to those principles will seek to shovel the blame onto anyone they can think of as that absolves them of blame. Once women rule society the game is up. A mere matter of time.

The panic measures taken today, and others in recent days, are nothing but a useless attempt to shore up the respectabilty of the behaviour patterns based on Veblen's principle because those bringing the measures forward are as deeply involved in them as anyone.

But I have to admit that the ride up has been a lot of fun and the source of much amusement to those of us who are steeped in that great man's ideas. Watching the "cat on the hot tin roof" performances now is even more amusing.

Obviously the election is a farce. Cindy and Michelle look to be well into buying their self esteem as is only to be expected from the main thrust of their conditioning.

Who was more useful a year ago before the **** hit the fan: the garbage collector or the CEO of Lehman Bros? Which of the two did you admire the most? Where were farmers in your estimation compared to advertising executives who had been taught their clever psychological tricks in the very universities you had funded?

Your Media has been a pandering.

It has just been announced, in an upbeat fashion, that the leading banks will pass on the 0.5% interest rate cut to borrowers. They didn't mention savers so we all have our fingers crossed hopefully.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 10:29 am
George Orwell in NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, Part III, Chapter II, wrote:

Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes: only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party. That is the fact that you have got to relearn, Winston. It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.


Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes: only in the mind of the Obama Democrats, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Obama Democrats holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Obama Democrats. That is the fact that you have got to relearn, you all. It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 11:24 am
I hope at at least some are giving attention to Ash, James, and Ican's posts because they do go to the heart of the problem we have. I know that dealing with actual substance is difficult for many Obama supporters, but there are a few who have not drunk all the Kool-ade.

An Obama administration will almost certainly have a Democrat controlled Congress to back him up meaning that he is likely to actually be able to do some of the stuff he has threatened us with. How much of our property, choices, opportunity, freedoms do we want to hand over to the government to control? Taking a line from a campaign past, a government big enough to give you everything you want or believe your are entitled to is big enough to take everything you have.

How do you think government has been managing massive entitlements so far? We are on the verge of having another added under the guise of having health care declared as a right that will be mandated. And as it always takes a number of years before the more serious consequences of a massive government program or intrusive policy kicks in, it never seems like much of a problem at the beginning.

So while government mandated healthcare is in its more innocuous stage, how likely is it that attention will be turned to housing, food, clothing, transportation as also being fundamental rights? Indeed if healthcare is a fundamental right, why not other life essentials?

The fact that bad government policy is extremely difficult to disentangle ourselves from, I am hoping in this last four weeks that there are enough people seriously thinking about this stuff and deciding just how much more big government we can handle.

McCain is probably nobody's first choice for President. But I am 100% certain that he is largely committed to taking the path of doing the least harm.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 11:46 am
@Foxfyre,
Hi Fox,

How do you square Palin's husband being a member of the AIP for six years, and the implications of her association with him, with your accusations about Obama and his associations?

Cycloptichorn
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 11:50 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
An Obama administration will almost certainly have a Democrat controlled Congress to back him up meaning that he is likely to actually be able to do some of the stuff he has threatened us with. How much of our property, choices, opportunity, freedoms do we want to hand over to the government to control?


I know you didn't just type that with a straight face after + years of Bush/Cheney.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 12:10 pm
@squinney,
Just maybe, Fox doesn't understand our Constitution or Bill of Rights, and what Bush swore when he was inaugurated into office.

Quote:
President Bush -- April 19, 2004:

For years, law enforcement used so-called roving wire taps to investigate organized crime. You see, what that meant is if you got a wire tap by court order -- and, by the way, everything you hear about requires court order, requires there to be permission from a FISA court, for example.

President Bush -- April 20, 2004:

Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.

President Bush -- June 9, 2005:

One tool that has been especially important to law enforcement is called a roving wiretap. Roving wiretaps allow investigators to follow suspects who frequently change their means of communications. These wiretaps must be approved by a judge, and they have been used for years to catch drug dealers and other criminals. Yet, before the Patriot Act, agents investigating terrorists had to get a separate authorization for each phone they wanted to tap. That means terrorists could elude law enforcement by simply purchasing a new cell phone. The Patriot Act fixed the problem by allowing terrorism investigators to use the same wiretaps that were already being using against drug kingpins and mob bosses.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 12:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Hi Fox,

How do you square Palin's husband being a member of the AIP for six years, and the implications of her association with him, with your accusations about Obama and his associations?

Cycloptichorn


Have you ever read the platform of the AIP?
You can here:
http://www.akip.org/platform.html

Doesn't come across as a radical hate group does it.

I don't know why Todd Palin was a member of that organization except that it was mostly during the Clinton years and there were a lot of people looking for a place to bail out during some of that. (Look how many on your side threatened to leave the country during the Bush years.)

The AIP did have one radical leader who said some things that no American who loves his country would condone. There is no evidence that Sarah Palin or Todd Palin or the members of the AIP endorsed those remarks; there is no evidence that Sarah Palin was ever a member of the organization; and Todd Palin did leave the AIP in 2002. Probably he figured there was hope for the country under George W. Bush. I don't know.

But other than the remarks of a few hateful members of the AIP, it just doesn't strike me as a particularly radical, subversive, or extremist organization nor one that is Anti-American. It is very much pro-Alaska.

And while Sarah Palin has been gracious to the AIP as it contains a large chunk of Alaskans, there is no evidence that she was inspired to become a member or that she ever used any of its members as mentors, advocates, associates, or spokespersons to help her move up the political ladder.

Therefore, I don't find Sarah Palin's relationship with her husband to be particularly troublesome.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 12:16 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I hope at at least some are giving attention to Ash, James, and Ican's posts because they do go to the heart of the problem we have.


Nowhere near Foxy. You are having yourself on like Debra.

Here's a cut of Veblen that goes close to the heart of the problems.

Quote:
With the exception of the instinct of self-preservation, the propensity for emulation is probably the strongest and most alert and persistent of the economic motives proper. In an industrial community this propensity for emulation expresses itself in pecuniary emulation; and this, so far as regards the Western civilized communities of the present (1899), is virtually equivalent to saying that it expresses itself in some form of conspicuous waste. The need of conspicuous waste, therefore, stands ready to absorb any increase in the community's industrial efficiency or output of goods, after the most elementary physical wants have been provided for.


The provision of free health care for all might be said to be an "elementary physical want". When it takes second place to the "keeping up with the Jones's" principle so "needed" by many of our fellows you have an irresistable object up against an immovable force. That millions of Americans have no health provision is a direct consequence of the propensity for emulation running the gamut of its possibilities. You may gauge your own need in that regard simply by scanning critically your accoutrements and activities.

As ladies are much more susceptible to this need to show themselves off in the best possible light, hiding as they do when that isn't possible, it is quite understandable that you should be opposed to free health care for everyone, as we have in my country, as you perceive, and correctly, that it will interfere with your capacity to keep going one better than your peers.

Hence, I believe, your conclusions are those we can easily expect you to have and thus it is rather pointless, unless you wish to demonstrate what a fine education you have had, for you have taken the trouble to express them.

I've seen no sign that either of your candidates are familiar with such ideas and now that we are in danger of experiencing a threat to our self-preservation, both are equally inexperienced in the matter of guiding us through circumstances they have never envisaged. I fancy Mr McCain might carry it off better though should such a nightmare actually arrive as some think it will if Plan A doesn't work and Plan B (doubling the amounts) doesn't work either.

And there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that Jesus himself might have nodded approval at that lot of what I know you will all call bullshit.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 12:17 pm
@squinney,
squinney wrote:

Quote:
An Obama administration will almost certainly have a Democrat controlled Congress to back him up meaning that he is likely to actually be able to do some of the stuff he has threatened us with. How much of our property, choices, opportunity, freedoms do we want to hand over to the government to control?


I know you didn't just type that with a straight face after + years of Bush/Cheney.




Oh yes I did, because I have deplored President Bush's big government programs and have consistently spoken out against them every bit as much as I expect to speak out against Obama's. At least John McCain opposed most of that.
 

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