cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, It's has nothing to do with "sticking around." It has to do with seniority and meeting job responsibilities. The comparison of pay must assume that they are comparing apples and apples; otherwise, those stats have no value. However, all we need to do is look at history on pay; comparing education, skill, and productivity. To introduce subjective values such as "men prefer higher pay" only confuse the real reasons why women's pay is lower than men's.

I'm sure you also know about the recent class action suit against WalMart for their discriminatory practices, don't you? It still happens. I'm sure you've also heard of the "glass ceiling." I'm personally aware of it, because I'm a minority in this country of "equal opportunity."

Women now go into careers previously "restricted" to men such as engineering, physics, doctors, dentists, etc., etc., etc. Show me why these women don't "stick around" with real numbers?
Ticomaya
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Did you even read her post?

Dumbass.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't know where I read this but but I believe it to be true: Europeans pay women in the early stages of their career equal the men, even though women don't stick around as long as men, because the common culture demands it be done. Americans on the other hand do not, because corporations have a valid point that people who likely will not stick are worth less investment. Europeans look at early career employment as pay for work, Americans look at workers much like a piece of machinery, you are required to put into the employee what he/she is worth over the long haul to the corporation.

I am not defending the practice, but I think it does reflect American deference to the wishes of the corporate culture (profit rules) that Europeans will not tolerate.
littlek
 
  3  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
It's a bit like being assumed guilty until proven otherwise.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:33 pm
Here's some more anecdotal personal experience about women in the work force. My physician and dentist are women. My oncologist who oversaw my radiation treatment last year is a woman.

The annectodes: My physician is from India, and trained at Stanford. She's the best physician I've ever had in my life man or woman; she even calls me at home to find out how I'm doing. I'm not aware of many doctors doing that today. When I have an emergency, she'll find time to see me the same day even when I know she already has a full schedule, because she works at Kaiser. My dentist is above average; she takes care of our family's (includes my wife and younger son's) dental needs. My oncologist is a Chinese woman trained at Harvard Medical School. We are lucky, because our local Kaiser trains and hires many physicians from Stanford - both men and women. My urologist is a man from Iran; I rated him as excellent for his knowledge and bedside manner. He's the one that performed the biopsy and seed implants on my prostate last year.



Yes, as I said, these are anecdotal.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:36 pm
@littlek,
exactly, but why do we put up with it, assuming that this is true?? We do a lot of this kind of crap, like saying that employers have a right to know what employees do on their off time (like drink or smoke) because their health might be worse than some one who does not and thus will cost the employer more...... . Employers using credit scores to determine job candidate desirability??!! This behavior is coercive and abusive of individual rights, but we allow it.
JTT
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:37 pm
McCain said that there was no need to vet Sarah Palin before the convention because he figured his base would do it for him. After all they owed him for the beer and barbecues.

Wink
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

Why do women earn less than men?; Two Vanderbilt economists explain this persistent issue and show which professions are worst at pay parity

In this day and age women are CEO’s, senators, construction workers, stock brokers, economists and more. Women have made their way into every aspect of the workforce and comprise 46 percent of employees. Yet women consistently earn less than men.

In separate research studies, one Vanderbilt economist has found a disappointing answer to the age-old wage debate and the other has pinpointed which professions are best and worst at pay parity.

Research by professor of law and economics Joni Hersch found that even when taking into consideration characteristics that might affect wages, such as choices over household and child-related responsibilities, market characteristics, working conditions, occupational segregation (field dominated by one sex or another), experience or job turnover rates, sex discrimination remained a strong explanation for the gender pay gap.

“If the unexplained pay disparity sometimes favored women and sometimes favored men, there would be no reason for concern,” said Hersch. “But systematically and without exception, finding that women earn less than men raises some questions.”

Hersch’s research found that there is little difference between men and women in how long they stay in a job. “Although women quit more often for family-related reasons, men quit more often to move to another job,” said Hersch.

What about family and housework? Hersch found there is some evidence the presence of children lowers women’s earnings. “But overall the evidence is mixed,” said Hersch. “Any effect varies by education and over the life cycle.” Hersch’s research found that, contrary to popular belief, family and housework responsibilities are not the major cause of the gender pay gap.

Hersch also found that women are almost as likely as men to take high risk jobs.

“Coupled with recent class action sex discrimination litigation involving the securities industry, grocery stores and now Wal-Mart, it’s hard to continue to attribute the remaining disparity to intangibles like effort and motivation and to ignore the possibility of discrimination,” she said.

Does education help level the playing field? Vanderbilt professor of economics Malcolm Getz said “not necessarily.” Getz’s research found earnings of women at every level of education are lower than the earnings of men. Despite this, Getz found female enrollment in college grew from 32 percent in 1950 to 57 percent in 2004.

“Some argue that, on average, women place a greater value on the non-monetary rewards from education than men do " the opportunity to choose careers for their intrinsic satisfaction, a greater sense of serving broader civic goals and cultural advancement, the pleasure of learning for its own sake. In this view, education pays higher dividends for women than for men even if it doesn’t necessarily lead to financial parity,” said Getz.

Getz’s research found that, in general, women yielded a higher economic value after earning an advanced degree, even though they still earned less than men. “The payoff of professional degrees for women is much greater than for men because the earnings they can expect in other careers are so much lower,” said Getz.

Getz used data from the U.S. Census’s Current Population Survey 1996-2002, to show the sometimes huge financial gaps between men and women. He found that pay disparities are greatest in the fields of accounting, insurance, finance and marketing. In the survey, male accountants made an average of $49,000 a year compared to around $33,000 for women. The average male financial manager earned almost $60,000 compared to less than $40,000 for female financial managers. Even among highly trained, highly educated physicians, men made an average of $94,000 while female doctors earned $69,000.

On the plus side, Getz found that female police officers and engineers earned about the same as their male counterparts, even though there are far fewer women in these fields. He also said that the law profession is getting closer to pay parity.

Hersch’s research was published in Foundations and Trends in Microeconomics. Getz’s research on salaries and the economics of education is included in his new book, Investing in College, a Guide for the Perplexed.

http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/element/9ty79cs/2007/04/09/why-do-women-earn-less-than-men-two-vanderbilt-economists-explain-this-persistent-issue-and-show-which-professions-are-worst-at-pay-parity.58653?print

-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another article with a slightly different viewpoint.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/21/commentary/everyday/sahadi/



Nothing seems to suggest that the problem is women's ability to do their jobs well, or that they don't work hard enough.

Discrimination and inequity still do exist.

0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
I agree. Good question - why DO we allow it?
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:47 pm
@littlek,
The government can step in and make it very expensive for companies to discriminate against women; there are already laws about discrimination against race and age, but even that isn't being enforced.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 11:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
an explaination that makes it women's fault:
Quote:
When Linda Babcock asked why so many male graduate students were teaching their own courses and most female students were assigned as assistants, her dean said: "More men ask. The women just don't ask." It turns out that whether they want higher salaries or more help at home, women often find it hard to ask. Sometimes they don't know that change is possible--they don't know that they can ask. Sometimes they fear that asking may damage a relationship. And sometimes they don't ask because they've learned that society can react badly to women asserting their own needs and desires.

By looking at the barriers holding women back and the social forces constraining them, Women Don't Ask shows women how to reframe their interactions and more accurately evaluate their opportunities. It teaches them how to ask for what they want in ways that feel comfortable and possible, taking into account the impact of asking on their relationships. And it teaches all of us how to recognize the ways in which our institutions, child-rearing practices, and unspoken assumptions perpetuate inequalities--inequalities that are not only fundamentally unfair but also inefficient and economically unsound.

With women's progress toward full economic and social equality stalled, women's lives becoming increasingly complex, and the structures of businesses changing, the ability to negotiate is no longer a luxury but a necessity. Drawing on research in psychology, sociology, economics, and organizational behavior as well as dozens of interviews with men and women from all walks of life, Women Don't Ask is the first book to identify the dramatic difference between men and women in their propensity to negotiate for what they want. It tells women how to ask, and why they should.

http://www.womendontask.com/more.html
firefly
 
  3  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 11:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, that explanation does not make it women's fault--it simply suggests that some women might need to be more assertive (I'm sure that's true for some men as well). Nor is that a scientific or erudite study of the subject--it is from an ad for a self-help book.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 11:39 pm
@firefly,
economist studies are considered scientific studies because economics is considered a science, and if when don't get the pay they deserve based upon their productivity then it is their fault. employment is a negotiated arrangement, failure to negotiate effectively will depress economic reward to the employee. we can debate whether employment arrangements should be regulated by supply and demand , but most think that it should. If it should and women don't make the proper demands who are we suppose to hold at fault if not the women??
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 11:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
One of the authors making her case here, worth listening to even if you expect to not agree with her:

http://techtv.mit.edu/file/834/
Lash
 
  1  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 02:16 am
@DrewDad,
Interesting that you think minorities are whiners who play the victim, Drew. Very interesting discriminatory mindset.
firefly
 
  3  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 06:39 am
@hawkeye10,
Well, the one thing Sarah Palin does not need is a self help book on how to be more assertive. Nor does she have to worry about salary inequity, because she is female, if elected VP. But she might have to worry about not attracting enough women voters.

Quote:

----------------------------------------------------

From the Los Angeles Times
CAMPAIGN '08

Sarah Palin's appeal to working-class women may be limited

For many of these critical swing voters, economic interests trump any admiration of the Alaska governor's maternal grit, and some are repelled by her sarcastic jabs at Obama.
By Faye Fiore and Peter Wallsten
Los Angeles Times Staff Writers

September 7, 2008

UNIONTOWN, PA. " Trish Heckman, a 49-year-old restaurant cook and disappointed Hillary Rodham Clinton supporter, watched last week as the country's newest political star made her explosive debut.

She followed the news when John McCain introduced Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his vice presidential running mate, paid attention to the raging debate over her qualifications, even tuned in to watch her dramatic speech at the Republican convention.

But when it came down to an issue Heckman really cares about -- sending a daughter to college on $10.50 an hour -- her desire to see a woman reach the White House took a back seat to her depleted savings account.

"I wanted Hillary to win so bad, but I saw Sarah, and it just didn't work for me," said Heckman, taking a break in the empty courtyard of J. Paul's restaurant in a downtown struggling to revive. "I have no retirement. Obama understands it's the economy. He knows how we live."

Heckman, like many others in this former coal-mining town at the western foot of the Appalachians, is the type of voter that both presidential campaigns will target in the final two months. Polls show that working-class women have emerged as one of the most critical categories of swing voters at a time when McCain and Barack Obama have galvanized their party bases but still need more votes to win.

Palin, a little-known 44-year-old mother of five, burst onto the scene just days ago, presenting herself as the woman to finally shatter the glass ceiling cracked by the Democratic New York senator's historic candidacy.

But now, after a chaotic introductory week that sparked national debates on McCain's judgment, Palin's experience and even her teenage daughter's pregnancy, the initial signs are not entirely positive for the reinvigorated Republican ticket.

Interviews with some two dozen women here after Palin's convention speech found that these voters were not swayed by the fiery dramatic speeches or compelling personal biographies that marked both the Republican and Democratic conventions. Instead, they were thinking about the price of milk -- nearly $5 a gallon -- or the healthcare coverage that many working families here cannot afford.

Even if they admire Palin's attempt to juggle political ambition, an infant son with Down syndrome and a pregnant unwed daughter, these women say that maternal grit is not enough to win their votes.

Waitress Judy Artice, "Miss Judy," as she is known at Glisan's roadside diner, declared Palin "the perfect candidate" after watching her Wednesday speech. That said, Artice had already decided that her vote would go to the first candidate who mentioned gasoline prices.

"And -- I'll be danged -- it was Obama," Artice, 46, said between servings of liver and onions during the lunch rush.

Both campaigns have signaled that these blue-collar hamlets could be where the election will be decided, an assessment made even more likely when the nation's unemployment rate hit a five-year high in August.

McCain dominates among white men, and Obama, who would be the first black president, is all but sweeping the black vote, most polls show. That leaves white women, the so-called Clinton base, as one of the most sought-after voting groups left on the table.

Recent surveys suggest that Palin, who opposes abortion even in cases of rape or incest, is not necessarily poised to help McCain with moderate women. A National Journal/Hotline daily tracking poll released Friday found that 49% of male voters say Palin is prepared to be president but that only 41% of female voters think so.

But Republican strategists hope that Palin's middle-class roots, union-member husband and love of hunting will help her connect to rural and small-town folks in battleground states such as Pennsylvania.

This is, after all, a place where schools close on the opening day of deer hunting season, people are conflicted about abortion rights and racial bias still simmers.

Sara Taylor, former Bush White House political affairs director, described Palin as a "living, breathing replica of the middle class" who "connected with people in a way we haven't seen a national figure do in a long time."

And Uniontown was very much in the McCain campaign's sights throughout a convention that showcased Palin's small-town roots while portraying Obama, who lives in Chicago, as a big-city elitist.

Republican delegates and activists in the convention hall delighted in Palin's jabs at the Illinois senator, such as when she poked fun at the columned backdrop for Obama's stadium acceptance speech or mocked him as intent on "turning back the waters and healing the planet."

For many women here watching closely, though, that portion of Palin's speech was all they needed to hear.

When Palin belittled Obama's history as a community organizer on Chicago's South Side -- suggesting he was a do-little activist while she, as the former mayor of tiny Wasilla, Alaska, had "actual responsibilities" -- Sandy Ryan, 59, clicked the remote.

"That's enough of that. I switched over to 'House Hunters,' " she said with some disgust over dessert with a group of women from the senior housing complex she manages.

One of a dwindling number of coveted undecideds, Ryan gets a firsthand view of retirees forced to choose between food and medication. She is not convinced Obama has the experience to be president, but Palin only reinforced her concern that McCain would mean four more years of divisiveness and gridlock.

Patty Tobal, a 63-year-old retired nurse and lifelong feminist, shut off the TV set and went to bed. The promise of a woman on the ticket had piqued her curiosity, but she found Palin's sarcasm offensive and her priorities out of touch.

"We don't need any more fighting in Washington," Tobal said while having her hair done at a little shop on Route 40, where the customers go longer between appointments in these hard times. "Women are not for women just because they are women. We are intelligent enough to make a conscious decision."

Life here is basic and hard. Coal miners still work the mountains. The upscale Nemacolin Woodlands Resort just down the road is replete with shops and restaurants that Uniontown residents can't afford.

And residents describe their downtown, where a portrait of native son and five-star general George C. Marshall covers a building several stories high, as "quaint but sad."

If these women are any indication, the threat to Obama's camp is not that they will side with McCain but that they will stay home, as Heckman, the restaurant chef and single mother of two, says many people on her block plan to do.

But those disenchanted voters could be balanced by newly inspired ones, such as Jennifer Glisan, 23, an emergency medical technician who saves lives every week but cannot afford health insurance. Clinton's gender was enough to awaken her political interest, but Palin's failed to hold it.

"I think Palin is a fake. She will run the economy into the ground," Glisan said after catching glimpses of the vice presidential nominee's speech between emergency calls.

"I have to kill myself every day at work to earn enough to pay for gas to get there. I think Obama is sincere. I think we need a change."

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-women7-2008sep07,0,3467857,full.story

sozobe
 
  1  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 07:21 am
@firefly,
Interesting (and encouraging) story, thanks!

I'm thinking of making this a sig line:

"Women are not for women just because they are women. We are intelligent enough to make a conscious decision."
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 08:18 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Interesting that you think minorities are whiners who play the victim, Drew. Very interesting discriminatory mindset.

Very interesting attempt to put words in my mouth.

Actual minorities very correctly need protection from mob rule.

I think people who aren't minorities and try to claim minority status are whiners.

Like you.

DrewDad
 
  2  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 08:35 am
@DrewDad,
And let me say again:

If what you're trying to say is that women have been discriminated against, you will get no argument from me. But discrimination Not Equal minority status.
firefly
 
  3  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 09:37 am
@DrewDad,
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/T/H/2/ready-to-lead.jpg
 

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