Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
And McCain votes to keep it that way, when he has the chance. Don't think we won't be bringing that up this Fall.

Cycloptichorn
DrewDad
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Women pay still isn't par with men's - even with the same title and positions.

This is ceasing to be the case.

For Young Earners in Big City, a Gap in Women’s Favor
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Don't think we won't be bringing that up this Fall.



We?

Do you have a gerbil in your pocket?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:54 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
As a woman, I do not consider myself a member of a minority. I do consider myself a member of a group that was marginalized and largely excluded from political power and corporate power until the 1960's, when both the civil rights movement, and the women's movement, began to break down the barriers that had existed largely to keep women "in their place"--in the home raising children and performing domestic duties.

As discrimination by gender began to vanish from the workplace, and opportunities increased, more women began to move into the workplace, and beyond the typically "feminine" jobs--teaching, nursing, secretarial work, etc.--and into bastions which had been typically "masculine". Today, women are not excluded, or discriminated against, in the workplace on the basis of gender. A woman can generally enter into any field she wishes. Women are on the Supreme Court and in Congress and the Senate. They serve as governors and sit on presidential Cabinets. Women are in law and medicine and on police forces and fire departments. They work as electricians and plumbers and truck drivers. Women start businesses and head major corporations.

While women have not yet achieved full pay equality, changes continue to take place, the position of women continues to evolve, and progress continues. Women may still have a harder road to success, for many reasons, but there are no longer hard barriers that prevent a women from moving toward any goal she chooses.

So, I am genuinely confused about why any American woman, in this day and age, when women have political power, social power, and growing economic power, would still see herself as a member of a minority, or subordinate group. What options and choices are not available to her, or to women as a group--beside, maybe, playing professional football and major league baseball? Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:57 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
WTF is a "explicit" sex-ed program? ...

Do you need someone to draw you pictures? Perhaps a little porn video would help you out?
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 06:42 pm
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
WTF is a "explicit" sex-ed program? ...

Do you need someone to draw you pictures? Perhaps a little porn video would help you out?

A class like that might inspire higher attendance...lol

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 07:50 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad, I know women's pay made great gains, but it's still about 85% of men's. Until that changes, it's called discrimination.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:05 pm
Palin decided that deriding and making fun of Obama's experience as a Community Organizer was the way to go, and said that her mayoral experience was more meaningful.

Too bad she badly mismanaged her town's finances, not to mention various abuses of power and naked attempts to gain as much Earmark money as possible -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122065537792905483.html

Quote:

Palin's Hockey Rink Leads
To Legal Trouble in Town She Led

By MICHAEL M. PHILLIPS
September 6, 2008; Page A5

WASILLA, Alaska -- The biggest project that Sarah Palin undertook as mayor of this small town was an indoor sports complex, where locals played hockey, soccer, and basketball, especially during the long, dark Alaskan winters.

The only catch was that the city began building roads and installing utilities for the project before it had unchallenged title to the land. The misstep led to years of litigation and at least $1.3 million in extra costs for a small municipality with a small budget. What was to be Ms. Palin's legacy has turned into a financial mess that continues to plague Wasilla.

"It's too bad that the city of Wasilla didn't do their homework and secure the land before they began construction," said Kathy Wells, a longtime activist here. "She was not your ceremonial mayor; she was in charge of running the city. So it was her job to make sure things were done correctly."

Ms. Palin, now Alaska's governor and Republican Sen. John McCain's running mate, has pointed to her two terms as Wasilla's mayor, from 1996 to 2002, as evidence that she has enough executive experience to take on the presidency, should the need arise -- more than Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, who touts his own background as a community organizer in Chicago.

"I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities," Ms. Palin said Wednesday in her acceptance speech at the Republican convention.

Litigation resulting from the dispute over Ms. Palin's sports-complex project is still in the courts, with the land's former owner seeking hundreds of thousands of additional dollars from the city.

Hockey is much loved in Wasilla, and Ms. Palin, whose son was a star player, wanted to build an indoor rink, with a track, basketball courts and soccer field. In the late 1990s, the city sought a 145-acre parcel owned by the Nature Conservancy, which wanted to sell the land to buy more environmentally sensitive property elsewhere. City officials negotiated a price of $126,000. Months passed without the city's securing a signed purchase agreement, according to the city's attorney, Tom Klinkner of Birch, Horton, Bittner & Cherot.

At the same time, Gary Lundgren, a Fairbanks real-estate investor, was in talks with the Nature Conservancy to buy a larger adjacent property. As discussions between the environmental group and the city dragged on, Mr. Lundgren said, he purchased the entire site for about $1 million.

The city sued Mr. Lundgren and the Nature Conservancy, arguing that Wasilla had had a deal. In 2001, a federal district court judge ruled in Wasilla's favor. Mr. Lundgren appealed, but the city believed it would prevail, according to Mr. Klinkner.

Ms. Palin marched ahead, making the public case for a sales-tax increase and $14.7 million bond issue to pay for the sports center, which was to feature a running track, basketball courts and a hockey rink. At the time, the city's annual budget was about $20 million. In a March 2002 referendum, residents approved the mayor's plan by a 20-vote margin, 306 to 286. The city cleared roads, installed utilities and made preparations to build.

Later that year, Ms. Palin's final one as mayor, the federal judge reversed his own decision and ruled that the property rightfully belonged to Mr. Lundgren. Wasilla had never signed the proper papers, the court ruled.

Mr. Lundgren said he had offered to give smaller parcels to the city free of charge, but the city held out for a larger tract. The former chief of the city finance department, Ted Leonard, says he doesn't recall such an offer.

After Ms. Palin left office, the city decided to take 80 acres of Mr. Lundgren's property through eminent domain. An Alaska court confirmed the city's right to do so and ordered that an arbitrator determine the appropriate price.

Last year, the arbitrator ordered the city to pay $836,378 for the 80-acre parcel, far more than the $126,000 Wasilla originally thought it would pay for a piece of land 65 acres larger. The arbitrator also determined that the city owed Mr. Lundgren $336,000 in interest. Wasilla's legal bill since the eminent domain action has come to roughly $250,000 so far, according to Mr. Klinkner, the city attorney.

Mr. Lundgren has appealed the decision, arguing that the arbitrator should have awarded him more interest. "It has been 10 years; it's just insane," said Mr. Lundgren, who now lives in Panama. "All [Ms. Palin] had to do was close the transaction."

The McCain-Palin campaign referred questions about the sports complex to Mr. Leonard, the former city finance chief. He blamed the Nature Conservancy for dealing with two different potential buyers at one time. "That's what caused the confusion," he said.

"At the time, with the information she had, [Ms. Palin] made the right decision," Mr. Leonard said. "But you know what? Litigation happens."

The sports facility is finished, set against forest and mountain ranges. Inside, locals kick soccer balls and skate laps on the rink. Last year, it hosted a statewide wrestling tournament.

"All I can say about the sports complex is that it was done on time and under budget," said Donald Moore, a Palin ally who managed the construction. "It was done legally, and for someone else to say it could have been done differently in a better way, that's strictly their opinion."

Ms. Palin cited her mayoral duties as partial evidence of her executive experience. Dianne Woodruff, a Wasilla city councilwoman and critic of Ms. Palin's performance, agreed.

"If people are going to be voting on her based on her experience as Wasilla's mayor, then they should know how she did in the job," Ms. Woodruff said, "the good, the bad and the ugly."


Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
really? there is no possibility that women are worth less on the job market because they are worth less to the employer, right? Factors such as leaving the profession early in larger numbers then men, taking more time off, not being willing to work 60 hour weeks??
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:20 pm
@hawkeye10,
Where, exactly, did you find such info on the working habits of men and women?
cicerone imposter
 
  4  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
FYI, most jobs have what are called "Job Descriptions." It usually delineates the responsibility of the position, and most all positions are managed by a supervisor or manager. Most companies also have what are called "Personnel Manuals" that delineates sick leave and vacation leave. Anything beyond those described in the Personnel Manual must be approved by management.

So, where did you find those stats that shows women do not perform as required by their employer?
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
"Litigation happens." Yes it does.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Obama is now taking direct aim at Palin, and her distortions/lies regarding her past record.

Quote:
"I know the governor of Alaska has been saying she's change, and that's great," Obama said. "She's a skillful politician. But, you know, when you've been taking all these earmarks when it's convenient, and then suddenly you're the champion anti-earmark person, that's not change. Come on! I mean, words mean something, you can't just make stuff up."
McCain has vowed to wipe out earmarks, which are targeted funding for specific projects that lawmakers put into spending bills. As governor, Palin originally supported earmarks for a controversial $398 million Alaska project dubbed the "bridge to nowhere." But she dropped her support after the state's likely share of the cost rose. She hung onto $27 million to build the approach road to the bridge.

Under Palin's leadership, Alaska this year asked for almost $300 per person in requests for pet projects from one of McCain's top adversaries: indicted Sen. Ted Stevens. That's more than any other state received, per person, from Congress for the current budget year. Other states got just $34 worth of local projects per person this year, on average, according to Citizens Against Government Waste, a Washington-based watchdog group.The state government's earmark requests to Congress in her first year in office exceeded $550 million, more than $800 per resident. Palin actually reduced the state government's requests for special projects this year in the wake of President Bush's demand for a cutback in earmarks.




Quote:
"Come on! I mean, words mean something, you can't just make stuff up."


Well, I guess Sarah Palin does think you can just make things up, and that the voters will be too stupid to notice what you are doing.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 08:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Recent meta-analyses have shown that women and men differ slightly in their job attribute preferences (Konrad, Corrigall, Lieb, & Ritchie, 2000; Konrad, Ritchie, Lieb, & Corrigall, 2000). Many significant findings are congruent with gender roles and stereotypes and the family responsibilities of women and men. Men placed a higher value on earnings, promotion, freedom, challenge, leadership, and power than women did. Women placed a higher value on good hours, an easy commute, interpersonal relationships, helping others, and a variety of intrinsic job aspects (Konrad, Ritchie, et al., 2000). Even a meta-analysis of studies limited to managers and business students (groups that might be expected to be highly career motivated and to have more similar job attribute preferences than the broader population studied above) showed small, but significant, gender differences in several job attribute preferences. Earnings and responsibility were slightly more important to men, whereas physical work environment, good social relationships, and good hours were slightly more important to women (Konrad, Corrigall, et al., 2000
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_1-2_54/ai_n26792791/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
JustBrooke
 
  3  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 09:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
I just put in over 60 hours in 4 days this week. And all the women I know, work whatever hours their employer requires them to. It is just harder for them when they have to go home and cook, clean, and take care of the children. And crawl into bed at night with enough energy to connect with their husbands in the way two people need to at the end of the day. That's all. Doesn't make them less valuable IMO. Most women have a strength within to accomplish a great deal in one day.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 09:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
"...showed small, but significant, gender differences in several job attribute preferences."


"Small differences?" That sounds more like an opinion than a credible work habits of men vs women. So for men " responsibility and earnings" was more important? Come on - give me a break! What's wrong with "good social relationships and good hours?"

Show me the "weaknesses" about the women's preferences? Please; I want to know what they are as they relate to the job.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 09:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This is strictly anecdotal, but my wife worked as a RN for many more years than I did in my profession. She worked in nursing for about 45 years, and rarely took a day off of work - even when she was sick. She now volunteers at the hospital where she used to work, and that's without pay.

I've seen women dedicated to their jobs, because I worked in management for most of my working career. I was the first manager at Florsheim Shoe Company who hired a woman auditor.

I doubt very much you know of what you speak of why women's pay is lower then men's.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I am not saying that I know why women pay is 85% of men, but I have heard members of the corporate class say that the job market runs fully on merit now, that if women can only get 85% of men pay it must be based upon then being worth 85% of what a man is. My personal opinion is that I don't know. I was reading something about a month ago that was talking about how about equal number of men and women go into BS programs for lab science, but by the time they reach the late forties almost all of the women are gone from the profession. The only question is the reason, are they pushed, is the work not compatible with feminine strengths, family obligations create too much pressure?? No body knows but can the corporations be blamed for paying women less if history teaches that women will not stick around?

again, I don't have personal opinion yet, but the claims that women are subject to discrimination because they don't make what men do is debatable.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:10 pm
@JustBrooke,
my wife works those kinda hours, was dismissed early in her career because she is a women, and is now regarded as about the best there is at what she does, man or woman......so what? You seem to be under the misguided impression that personal anecdotal stories from your life refute scientific study. Show me an recognized expert or a study that supports your claim and then we can compare notes. Till then you got nothin.
Rockhead
 
  2  
Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hack, have you a style other than abrasive?

It's wearin' thin...
0 Replies
 
 

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