A good cry on the train

It's never been the norm for me either Joe. I am not in contact with any of my exes. Only one became anything remotely like a friend but that was when I had one foot across the state line, just a few weeks shy of moving out of town. A few have tried to contact me via Classmates but I have never returned any emails or inquiries. The past is the past and, like you, I see no reason to remain friends with anyone who has hurt my feelings or broke my heart.

I have remained in contact and, in some cases, friends with exes.

It's good when you can pull it off, and remaining civil at least is the only way to keep your self-esteem in the future.

But what L seems to be doing is to want to continue to lean on you, Joe, as required. What you have told us about the past makes me fear that as a huge quagmire.

I don't think you have a vindictive bone in your body Joe, but you don't have to be anybody's leaning post either.

I think I'm preaching to the converted when I say....Don't get sucked in.

Hey Joe (did you sleep well) Nation

Oh pah... was going to write some stuff about cutting people out of your life.. but can't - I don't seem to be able to do that but that's just me. You need to do whatever hurts you less and be at ease with how you deal with it. That's all.... do what is best for you now, stay true to you.

Anyhoo.... it uploaded...


know you'll "get" it... one of those looooong nites.

Have a GREAT day mate - catchup with you later.

Iz (shoulod be on way to work ) zie x

I am in sporadic contact with most of my exes, but The Monster is his own special case. L reminds me of the Monster. Nice, smart, funny, interesting, etc etc.....and emotionally manipulative. A want-it-all. Want the best thing for self ("what if there is something BETTER out there for me?"), yet not wanting to let you go either.
I ate it, hook, line, and sinker, and was the hollow willow, as we say, for years after we broke up. He confided in me before he got married, sent me 'stuff' for almost a year after he dumped me (a CD here, earrings, this, that... he thought it was a nice thing to do...). Finally I got a fit and told him to stop (months too late).
Then I started ignoring the overly personal confessions in his emails and kept the replies short and civil, but superficial. We hardly ever email anymore, thankgod, and although he still tries, I learned to ignore his musings and memories (he emailed me on what would have been our 12th anniversary and, oh, to tell me that his wife is pregnant and how nervous he is...). An emotionally illiterate clutz.
Sorry for this intrusion, but all that is to say, don't buy into it. Civil, yes...but do not condone emotional manipulation.
But you seem to be already versed in that and doing good...and so I'll bugger off.

Yep, they do. Or some do.

I did. Wish I hadn't. It just dragged the misery out for much longer than necessary.

Was I mad? Probably.

Hard to explain that (mutual, in my case) need to "salvage" something from years of involvement. Surely 20 or so shared years can't all just be gone with the wind? >>Poof<< Just like that! Surely not?
But it sort of can.
It takes some of us longer than others to accept that & realize that no, you can't be "friends" after all. (Ha! As if!)
Oh well ......





Joe, why do you thing L sent you this long email?

She told me two nights before she left that she wanted to be "the ex that I still talked with." My exact thoughts at that moment were "FAT." "CHANCE."
I think Dag has it right. Left to her own, L. will try to find ways of inserting herself (and asserting herself.)

I had dinner a second time last Wednesday with "our" friend, Alison. )I owed her a beer. We talked about a lot of things but L.'s name never came up that I remember.
I wanted to take her to the Pan because I think it's such a fun place to go, but it's now closed on weekdays, so we went elsewhere.
Turns out in the email, L. tells me the two of them went to the Pan on Saturday. (L.'s very lucky not to have run into Frank ... .) and would I like some pictures she took of the place? I wonder who's idea that was?

Anyway, it's complicated. I have to be at least civil until after the agreements are agreed to, I guess. I don't know. It bothered me more than I thought it would.

I'm going to send a reply. "No pictures of the Pan. I've got plenty."

Joe(and don't send any of the cats either.)Nation

Man, she's awfully sure of you hanging on her every word and still needing her, eh?

Sounds a like some one's at a bit of a loose end, Joe?



Of course it did. She's acting as though you're interested in her life ... as if it's stuff you'd want to know about. As if you're a friend. A bit strange, considering all that's happened ...

Oh absolutely. But there's a big difference between remaining civil after a breakup and becoming friends. You should try and remain civil at all times but friends? Nah.

L's behavior is typical. And pretty lame. It just always amazes me that people of a certain age, who have surely been down this road before, will fall prey to the same type of foolish behavior, as if no one is the wiser. Every boyfriend I ever had attempted a comeback. Whether they broke up with me or vice versa. If they know that the breakup was devastating for you, but you're not calling them day and night crying and pleading for their return, they wonder why and they always end up calling you. It's ego and there's just nothing like grinding that ego into the dust with your silence.

If I were you Joe, I would wait for at least three days before responding to that email. Let her twist in the wind. It'll do ya good!

A marriage can be like an addiction. So when you break it, its reccomended that one divorce oneself from all things associated with that addiction.

My first wife is a great source of funny insertions at get-togethers. Kinda like
"My first wife was so dumb that..."

So L wants to have her cake and eat it, too? What a cruel, insensitive way to act.

Unless it's manipulative. It's entirely possible that she's trying to keep you "softened up" until after the settlement. She might think that treating you like a good friend will make you less hostile, more agreeable. (Yes, women think like that.)

Either way, she's thinking only of herself. I'd ignore the e-mails. In fact, I'd probably delete them without opening.

Our divorce was simple as befit our possessions and finances. We did keep in touch, in a constrained way, by phone, a little bit at the beginning. Mostly to do with "shall I give your father's suit to the good will?" After a few years we'd talk more about ourselves as the constraint passed - we had been (mostly) interested in each other's lives for 20 plus years, so finding out what he was writing now, and, for him, my moving and my having a gallery again.. was fine. I would see him, just like I saw other friends and colleagues, at the busy Venice cafe that became a gathering place when I went to LA a few times. He had married and also moved, though not so far away. We still talk every, oh, four months or so. I'm genuinely happy with his recent plays, and I can tell he wants me to be ok, not just for conscience reasons - now ten years after the breakup. No wish to get back together - just a kind of continuity, maybe a way to not have 20 years be some kind of waste management, because they weren't a waste. But that was us; I don't think of him as more at fault than me.

This is not to say I'm not still pissed at him - but he really isn't an asshole.

That's the epitome of selfish.

Ugh What kind of a question is that anyway? Either send the bloody pictures, or don't. Don't ask... There is no good answer to it. You can't say yes, and no is also not good. I would just glide by it as if it never existed. If she asks again, then you can sure as hell say no, because it's just so inappropriate to the situation. Why don't they see it? Gah.

Joe, Reading along. I occasionally make an unkind noise or a positive sound. You can't hear either. You'll have to take my word for it.

Hang in, kiddo.

Hey Joe (need a hug) Nation

That comes and goes. Sometimes it will bother you, sometimes you laugh at the absurdity of the request.... go with whatever you feel.

Iz (can yer hug me back please...ahhh...thanku - needed one badly) zie

Come be my subject.
I am 4 hours away from Dallas.
2 if I meet you halfway some where.

If you take a portrait shot of Joe, I'll buy it......sight unseen.

I'm learning: Here's how I answered....



A few minutes after I sent that the phone rings, thankgod for caller ID, I didn't answer, she didn't leave a message.

Then the phone rings again, I say "What the __ . and pick up.

I had sent the Jewish cousins a Happy New Year card with a note that said "Next year will be better". signed J. (No L.)

You would have thought that she would have already told her favorite cousins the news, but no. Of course, they called her.

Good. I say to myself.

Anyway, I am asked if I send anyone else a card? (No. I don't know the other relatives as well as these two.) then I said I had to go and I hung up.

Okay. Here's the learning part: my first reaction after hanging up was that I should email her an apology....."maybe I should have checked with you before sending."....etc.

Then I got hold of myself and said "Right. You just spent the last twenty years apologizing for one thing or another. Forget it. You are not apologizing for ANYTHING. "
and this incredible sense of relief passed over and through me.

It was like a wonderfully warm washcloth.

In other news:
Tonight I went to Bloomingdale's and bought some new shirts, one for the big party on Saturday.

Joe(I am going to look swell.)Nation

You've done well.

Party on Saturday?