Oneness vs. Trinity

@Arella Mae,

You are very mistaken and I'm sorry you feel the way you do......but you say

Quote:

You have not addressed a single scripture I asked you about. You obviously do not intend to. I am not going to get into a spat with you about this. I am not going to argue with you at all.

and this is NOT TRUE!

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Okay you seem to be getting rather upset and I certainly don't want that. I thought this was a discussion. The fact is scripture says this: There are three that bear record in heaven................and these three are one. Can you explain that?

And this what I posted
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Who is the Father?.....God

Who is the Word?......God

Who is the Holy Ghost?.....God

Who is Jesus? .....God

The Word is not a people or a persons....No, it is a revelation that the Word is GOD......neither is the Father,Son or Holy Ghost ...They are God Manifested not individual persons as the trinity doctrine suggest.

You are just upset with me and are only seeing what you want to see.......name one thing that I did not address and I will either show you where I answered or addressed it. Just one at a time so we don't get confused.

1 Reply

@Intrepid,

????????????

I said

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The trinity doctrine is 3 persons!

and then you said

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.....and this is supported where?

and then I said

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MAN! research where and when it was introduced and you will know where it came from!

With all do respect, if you all would quit trying to beat me at something and just see (with an open mind) I am addressing your Questions NOT MINE. I am not here to down grade or humiliate anyone!

God Bless

2 Replies

@dolphish1031,

dolphish, the problem is, you are NOT addressing anyone's questions directly. Is this how you would handle a babe in Christ that has questions? I surely pray not!

I have asked you specific questions about specific scriptures. Since you are the one holding the belief of oneness, you would be the one to ask. I think common sense would dictate that. Intrepid has asked you for your source for the trinity is three persons.

If you are going to post on this forum then may I gently suggest that you understand people on here expect answers to their questions. There are rules of debate, so to speak, and many on this forum stick to them. I had to learn that when I first started posting on this forum.

I have to tell you that your lack of answers and evasion methods are very frustrating. Right now, I can just about imagine that Timberlandko, God rest his soul, would be stepping in here and posting that picture of that big piece of heavy equipment bogged down in the mud. I always appreciated when he did that. Taught me to let go when it's obvious you aren't going to get anywhere. I'll always be grateful to him for that.

One thing I know, a revelation from God humbles a person. It doesn't puff them up to the point to where they don't think they should answer another person's questions.

We are to be a light in the darkness. I'm not seeing it..................sorry.

1 Reply

@dolphish1031,

Not trying to beat you. Just trying to understand you. You use rhetoric and no solid answers.

I will just leave you to it since you refuse to dialogue in a constructive way with actual information rather than conjecture.

Have yourself a nice day.

0 Replies

Carbon System makes good sense, did anybody read his posts?

1 Reply

@Pemerson,

Pemerson wrote:

Carbon System makes good sense, did anybody read his posts?

This is a first! Drunk

Thanks for reading 'em pemerson.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Just because you don't agree with my answers does not mean there not answers.....And with all do respect if intrepid and you believe in something like the trinity then to be sure you know that the trinity doctrine believes in three persons and if you don't know that then it is in every library or on the internet when and where it originated and I did answer his question before he ever asked it but you guys are reading what you want and not receiving anything I have to say.........."this is just one of the sources" New International Encyclopedia, Vol.22, p.476 - The Catholic faith is this: We worship one God in Trinity, but there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Ghost.

History tell us that the Roman Emperor Constantine summoned all the bishops of the church for a general council at Nicaea in the year 325 A.D. The principal work of this council was the settlement of a great dispute over the nature of Christ. Athanasius of Alexandria brought fourth the trinitarian views, which the council accepted and formed the "Nicaean Creed" Later, the Emperor Theodosius made Christianity the state of religion and the organization was given the name "Catholic." The Catholic Church still embraces the trinity doctrine. And it has been handed down to us in the form :
(1)For there is one "person" of the Father and one" person"of the Son and there is one "person" of the Holy Ghost.
(2)And yet there are not three Gods, but one Lord
we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every" person" " BY Himself" to be God and Lord
(3)But the whole three "persons" are co-eternal and co-equal

The above info is taken from the Creed of Athanasius- volume 7, page 366

Again this may not be what you want to hear but it is Answering your questions

Quote:

One thing I know, a revelation from God humbles a person. It doesn't puff them up to the point to where they don't think they should answer another person's questions.

I have not one time puffed up at anyone, but you have, I AM SIMPLY ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS AND YOU DON'T LIKE THEM! now what i do believe is I will step back because it is obvious that you don't want to HEAR my answers. And I believe that there is no such thing as a coincidence...So i'm going to let the Holy Ghost do his work.

Thank you and God Bless,
David

1 Reply

@dolphish1031,

Please tell me where you answered these questions:

Jesus prayed to the Father that the disciples and Jesus would be as one as Jesus and His Father are one. If Jesus is the Father how do you explain that?

Jesus said, "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father." If Jesus is the Father, how do you explain that?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were at Jesus' baptism. If Jesus is the Father, how do you explain that?

Here is one I forgot to ask so I'll chance it. You can say all manner of things against the Father and the Son but if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit there is no forgiveness in this life nor the next. How can you only blaspheme only the Holy Spirit if Jesus is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said he has a father. How do you explain that if Jesus is the Father?

You have not addressed a single one of those questions. I am going to give you the benefit of a doubt and ask them one more time hoping to gain some understanding of your beliefs.

You may not believe that you are puffed up about this but you certainly do come across that way but perhaps it is because I have some preconceived notions that I need to put aside so, again, I will give you the benefit of a doubt here and I will apologize for that comment.

Please dolphish, I sincerely want to know how you can continue to say Jesus is the Father in light of those scriptures. I am not asking to be mean, snotty, a know it all, or anything like that. I truly want to know how you view those scriptures.

2 Replies

@Arella Mae,

Please read all of this and not just part of it.O.K.......Once again I have answered these questions but you don't like the answer "Revelation" and the revelation comes from the Bible!....Now HOW God does it I don't know! (even you said you don't know How God does it)....but the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the Father and I have shown you where it says that several times but you refuse to accept it!

Now every question you just asked me is "HOW" do you explain? and if you want to know "HOW" then you need to ask God not me! But if you want to know why I believe the way I do then it is very clear in my other post (there is only One God "manifested" and the reason I believe that is because the Bible says it many many times) ......and I know you are going to say that you believe in One God, but the trinitarian doctrine that you believe in says that there are 3 different individuals. And that is the reason that I don't believe in the trinity doctrine. There is only ONE! (the bible says it) the bible doesn't say trinity anywhere! and the Apostles didn't preach any such thing it was invented by man from the 2nd to the 5th century! And please don't say that the oneness was invented in the 19th or 20th century like you suggested before because the oneness of God has been preached throughout the bible.

Now when you say that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were at the baptism....i don't know how God did this, but I have the Faith to know that God is everywhere, then I have the Faith that He can do this.....now again this may not be an answer to you but it is the answer to why i believe the way I do!

One more way and I hope you can receive this ......now I'm talking about me personally ...I am a Father to my Daughter,and I am also a Son to my Father, and I am also a Husband to my Wife....But I am only ONE.

I may not be telling you How God did things but I am answering Why I believe the way I do....

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Please dolphish, I sincerely want to know how you can continue to say Jesus is the Father in light of those scriptures.

The bible says it. Jesus said this out of his own mouth Revelation 1:17-18 (King James Version)

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And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

and you believe the Father was the first?(Creator) and there are other scriptures that says Jesus is the Father and I have posted them in the past .....you can not tell me one scripture that, He(Jesus) says I am part of a trinity! But I can tell you several verses that says He is the Father!(The Everlasting Father)

Again this is all answers to why I believe the way I do, and not How God did it!

God Bless

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@Arella Mae,

. There are TWO Replies!!!!Please read my other REPLY too!!!!I'm sorry but I forgot to address this..

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Here is one I forgot to ask so I'll chance it. You can say all manner of things against the Father and the Son but if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit there is no forgiveness in this life nor the next. How can you only blaspheme only the Holy Spirit if Jesus is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

I will say that i don't like the way this is worded but anyway......Put yourself in those times and imagine all the people that were going to talk about Jesus I mean this Man(Jesus) was claiming to be the Savior,so we can understand that people were going to ridicule the Man, but if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost(God) that is what is not forgiven. I mean the people that killed the Man(Jesus) repented and was forgiven. But they didn't blaspheme God(Holy Ghost). They just didn't believe the Man was the Savior.

I hope and pray this helps.....I believe you may be able to find that some pretty prominent pastors have taught this ....which will be easier to understand from them cause they have an hour or so to explain.

God Bless

2 Replies

@dolphish1031,

dolphish1031 wrote:

. There are TWO Replies!!!!Please read my other REPLY too!!!!I'm sorry but I forgot to address this..
Quote:
Here is one I forgot to ask so I'll chance it. You can say all manner of things against the Father and the Son but if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit there is no forgiveness in this life nor the next. How can you only blaspheme only the Holy Spirit if Jesus is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?
I will say that i don't like the way this is worded but anyway......Put yourself in those times and imagine all the people that were going to talk about Jesus I mean this Man(Jesus) was claiming to be the Savior,so we can understand that people were going to ridicule the Man, but if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost(God) that is what is not forgiven. I mean the people that killed the Man(Jesus) repented and was forgiven. But they didn't blaspheme God(Holy Ghost). They just didn't believe the Man was the Savior.

I hope and pray this helps.....I believe you may be able to find that some pretty prominent pastors have taught this ....which will be easier to understand from them cause they have an hour or so to explain.

God Bless

Where, exactly, is it written that those who "killed" Jesus Christ repented and were forgiven?

....and what they didn't believe is that He was the son of God.

1 Reply

@dolphish1031,

dolphish1031 wrote:

You are very mistaken and I'm sorry you feel the way you do......but you say
Quote:
You have not addressed a single scripture I asked you about. You obviously do not intend to. I am not going to get into a spat with you about this. I am not going to argue with you at all.
and this is NOT TRUE!

Quote:
Okay you seem to be getting rather upset and I certainly don't want that. I thought this was a discussion. The fact is scripture says this: There are three that bear record in heaven................and these three are one. Can you explain that?

And this what I posted
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Who is the Father?.....God

Who is the Word?......God

Who is the Holy Ghost?.....God

Who is Jesus? .....God

The Word is not a people or a persons....No, it is a revelation that the Word is GOD......neither is the Father,Son or Holy Ghost ...They are God Manifested not individual persons as the trinity doctrine suggest.

You are just upset with me and are only seeing what you want to see.......name one thing that I did not address and I will either show you where I answered or addressed it. Just one at a time so we don't get confused.

i really wasn't going to respond to this because it usually ends up being a huge waste of time, but i figured what the hell (pun intended).

the scripture really doesn't support what you are claiming here. If the scripture does support it then jesus was not aware that he was god incarnate. Seems rather strange that just before jesus was going to fulfill his destiny he had a little side bar with god wondering why he was being forsaken. I mean if he knew what he was about to do, why would you be so worked up over it? Didn't he know he was sacrificing himself for all of humanity? Hell if I knew that i could do such a thing i wouldn't be whimpering and crying in the corner, instead i would be asking when do you want me to show up.

I have heard apologetic responses to try and address this issue. they try to say that jesus is trying to reflect a common humanistic trait of anxiety before the storm. but i simply do not buy that argument because of the stack that goes against that wager. The only way i would accept that argument is if jesus had no idea what it was he was about to fulfill. but according to the scripture he was aware and even Christians enjoy pointing out that he willingly went to his doom for the sake of humanity.

So two major problems with your premise.

1) jesus has no idea that he is god and is completely in the dark about who he is.

2) god has the ability to be both in the non existing realm of where ever god is and at the same time incarnated on earth and unaware that he is on earth.

For 2 you could argue that god left the non existing realm of where ever god is and went to earth so he was not actually in two places at once. But if you don't accept that argument, then there is absolutely no way that jesus could not know he was god. But why?

It would be like you holding a video camera in your hand facing it at yourself but at the same time there is a monitor on the wall in front of you broadcasting the same image. You are aware that you are videoing yourself yet at the same time the person up on the monitor in front of you would have absolutely no idea that it (you) were being videoed. It is a huge contradiction but as typical Christians are, they fail to find contradictions because they love to ignore them.

So if god left the non existing realm of where ever god is and went to earth then you are saying all of god was unaware of being god. If you try to argue that jesus knew that he was god, then his side bar with god makes absolutely no sense. This would be another contradiction. So which is it?

1 Reply

@dolphish1031,

Quote:

One more way and I hope you can receive this ......now I'm talking about me personally ...I am a Father to my Daughter,and I am also a Son to my Father, and I am also a Husband to my Wife....But I am only ONE.

But, the one thing you CANNOT be, is your own Father. I am done with this conversation. I just pray no babe in Christ ever asks you a question. God puts teachers in the church (according to scripture) for a reason and it's not to simply tell people to ask God for the answer.

2 Replies

@Arella Mae,

Quote:

One more way and I hope you can receive this ......now I'm talking about me personally ...
I am a Father to my Daughter,and I am also a Son to my Father, and I am also a Husband to my Wife....But I am only ONE.

Arella Mae wrote:

But, the one thing you CANNOT be, is your own Father.
I am done with this conversation.
I just pray no babe in Christ ever asks you a question.
God puts teachers in the church (according to scripture) for a reason
and it's not to simply tell people to ask God for the answer.

Let me offer the following:
people have returned from death in hospitals.
Death = no EKG, no EEG and no respiration for a while
(several minutes or about an hour).
Most of those people only remember waking up.
Some of the survivors have memories of what happened
during their periods of death, which events are verified.
Some of those people have had multiple deaths,
of which thay remember some deaths, but not others.

Some of those survivors have told us that after thay left their bodies,
thay felt intuitive knowledge that the same life was shared by all
of the medical personnel who were scrambling to rescue them,
shared by the flowers in the room, and by the dog barking across
the street-- that the diversity of life is an illusion
and the actual fact is ONE life, not more than one.

U can drop a glass mirror and see yourself reflected in 1000s
of broken pieces at once, but there is still only ONE u.

David

1 Reply

@CarbonSystem,

I did read your posts and I am sorry I did not respond to you. This is such a difficult issue. I just don't believe any of us are really going to understand the Godhead until we get up there!

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Heya David! Good to see you. I meant I was done with the conversation with dolphish. I should have made that clear.

I don't have a problem with others believing what they believe. I may not agree with them but I see no reason to treat them less than civilly and without respect.

I have a problem with others saying I believe this and give no reason for it. I have a problem with others that will not answer questions that are asked. If you (general) are going to be in a conversation there is give and take. I am not much for I AM RIGHT, YOU ARE WRONG and ASK God why. That is not biblical at all. Scripture tells us to study to show ourselves approved......be as the Bereans and test all things with scripture.............be ready in season and out for an answer for the hope that is in us. Jesus went into temples and discussed doctrine with teachers. Paul taught...............I don't read one time where there answer was ONLY ask God about it.

I am sad to say this but the very behavior I started this thread about is the very behavior I have encountered. The only thing missing is me being called a child of the devil and I need deliverance.

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@Intrepid,

Acts 2:36-42 (King James Version) .....36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

God Bless

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Jesus was one hundred percent Man and one hundred percent God.. and How God does this I don't know but with FAITH I BELIEVE! ( the bible says it is impossible to please God without Faith) so some things we just have to have Faith that He can do all things! And I believe that if YOU were hanging on that cross the one hundred percent man that you are would come out and you would begin to weep also! And if you are talking about when He was with his Disciples then it was all about Love,the Man loved and didn't want to leave his loved ones.
Come on now, if we believe in God(Jesus,Holy Ghost) then we believe in the Bible and if we believe in God and the Bible then we have to have FAITH!

We have to have Faith!!!

God Bless

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@Arella Mae,

But God can be his own Father Cause he can do all things..... He(Jesus) is the One that said it, its in the Bible!

The difference between you and a "Babe" is that they will be open minded and will be willing to receive what the bible says! IT IS IN THE BIBLE and HOW GOD does it I DON'T KNOW! WOW! And we are all teachers, WE are the Church, not the 4 walls you sit in! He said WE are all to GO and TEACH!!!!
So you can be finished if you want to but your questions have been answered! (all be it not what YOU wanted to hear but answered and backed up with the Word of God)....

God Bless and it has been GREAT talking to you!

1 Reply

@dolphish1031,

Okay first of all, I will not lie and say it has been great talking to you because it has been nothing but frustration for me due to your your evasiveness and your shouting at me with your extra large letters and saying I believe in three gods.

Oneness is a heresy. It was started in 1913 at Azuzu Street and has not been taught throughout church history. It is not biblical at all. The bible does not say Jesus IS the Father. The truth is, oneness (all of you so far) twist scripture to say it. You have built a doctrine around one or two scriptures that you can make seem to say what you want. The very fact that you either cannot or will not address direct questions only leads me to believe you have no clue as to why you believe what you do. God is not the author of confusion but, unfortunately, that is all I am getting from you.

Open minded? Show me that in scripture, please? We are NOT to be open minded to heresies, new teachings, false doctrines that were not of the original apostles' doctrine, etc. So I am not going to open minded to the heresies.

Oh, and I guess you think Jesus was a wimp too, as well as a liar for saying he has a father when he is the father? Thousands, probably more have gone to their deaths singing praises to God while they were tortured, etc., and yet you think GOD was afraid of pain of the cross? You think Jesus, the captain of our salvation was less than any of those that went before Him? Afraid of nails? Afraid of Roman soldiers? NO WAY! What he feared and was crying out about was the fact that He would be separated from His Father when He took upon all the sin of the world. He had never been separated from His father. It was something He could not bear. This should be an example for us!

So, you see, I don't believe your oneness belief for a lot of reasons. And, I might add, they are all biblical.

2 Replies

Oneness vs. Trinity

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