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When did people lose their sense of humour?

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 06:48 pm
Everyone's calmed down a lot, thankfully. People seem to largely agree at this point to do nothing re: the New Yorker. (Haven't gotten in a good listserv argument in like 15 years -- so far none of the 300-some recipients who WEREN'T participating have complained about their overflowing inboxes, but it'll happen soon if it's not as resolved as it seems. :-))
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 07:56 pm
If I understand the argument of those who are not happy with the cover, The New Yorker, somehow, has a responsibility to avoid providing fodder to the people they are lampooning.

Furthermore if they were going to run this risk, they should have put the cartoon in between the covers where fewer "Bubbas" might see it.

What utter nonsense.

The New Yorker owes nothing to the Obama Campaign or its supporters, and if it feels it does, I would like to know so that I can cancel my subscription.

The cover has not resulted in riots in the streets, nor was there ever any chance whatsoever that it would. The New Yorker didn't owe civil society consideration when it decided to publish this cover.

The cover has taken on a life of its own, thanks to the Obama campaign and his supporters. The New Yorker can't be blamed for that nor can the Bubbas whom the cover seeks to lampoon.

If you have a mole on your face and you run through crowds yelling "Stop looking at the mole on my face!", you can hardly blame people for looking at your mole.

And you call yourselves liberals. Cool
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 08:28 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
And you call yourselves liberals. Cool


You've raised some good points, Finn. Who helped you? Smile

But I can understand the concern even though I don't agree with it. No sane person wants to see the US have to go thru another 4 years of a Bush surrogate, someone who might actually be worse, ..., is such a thing even imaginable?

You should be thanking these people though, not chastising them for they obviously have those simpletons' [who would vote Republican] best interests at heart.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 08:35 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
And you call yourselves liberals. Cool

You did notice that most of the liberals here, from Blueflame to Soz, sided with the NYer?
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 06:15 am
Even those of us who did not want such a cover did not advocate censorship.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 08:38 am
edgarblythe wrote:
Even those of us who did not want such a cover did not advocate censorship.


I thought it was a poorly done joke, and that the Obama camp addressed it and moved on - where is the furor, coming from the Liberals, again?

I know that Hannity and Colmes flashed it on their show about, oh, twenty times the other night. Damn liberals making hay out of this!

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 09:12 am
Liberals are so damned sensitive!
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 10:33 am
It appears that the New Yorker cover will now be used as a reason or excuse for Obama for all sorts of things. With such importance placed on it, will that soon also include acne, tooth decay, and escalating gasoline prices?

Quote:
July 16 (Bloomberg) -- The cover of this week's New Yorker magazine may explain why Barack Obama isn't reaching out to Michigan's Muslims.

The presumptive Democratic presidential nominee is shown in the Oval Office, wearing a turban and bumping fists with his wife, Michelle, who is in combat boots with a rifle slung over her shoulder. The cartoon, intended as satire, is a reminder of the dangers of any association with Muslims for Obama, who has fought false rumors that his middle name, Hussein, indicates he was born into the Islamic faith.

Muslim- and Arab-Americans represent 4 percent of the vote in Michigan, a battleground in this year's election. Yet Obama, who has held 13 events in the state during the presidential campaign, hasn't visited a mosque or met with Muslim leaders.

Bill Ballenger, editor of the nonpartisan newsletter Inside Michigan Politics, said Obama, 46, has to strike a delicate balance. The Illinois senator ``doesn't have to pander'' to such voters, who are likely to back him anyway, though he can ill- afford to ``dismiss them in an arrogant fashion.''

While Obama is leading in Michigan polls, some politicians said it would be a mistake for him not to actively court the state's Muslim voters, who went for Democrat John Kerry four years ago and Republican George W. Bush in 2000. . . . .

. . . .Several Muslim and Arab leaders said they would like to meet with Obama. They said they haven't had any direct meetings with Arizona Senator McCain, 71, either.

``We're not asking for much,'' said Imad Hamad, regional director for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee in Dearborn. ``We're asking for equal opportunity and equal time and equal respect. They've met with other communities, so why is the Arab-American, Muslim community out of the loop?''

Some Muslim Obama backers said they understood their candidate's motivation in keeping his distance.

``There's an Islamophobic wave,'' said Ron Amen, an Obama volunteer who is also the facility manager at the Arab American National Museum in Dearborn. ``I understand him making an effort to convince people that he's not a Muslim; I don't want to see Obama get saddled with any more baggage as a result of support from Arabs and Muslims.''

LINK
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 10:41 am
And apparently Obama put his own sense of humor on the back burner when he decided not to 'stay above the fray' on Larry King's show:

What do you think here? Is he accusing the New Yorker of a 'right wing attack'?

Tuesday, July 15th 2008, 9:50 PM
Monsivais/AP

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/07/16/amd_obama.jpg

Barack Obama says he's "seen and heard worse" than The New Yorker cartoon (below) satirizing attacks on him and his wife by the political right.

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/07/14/amd_newyorker-cover.jpg

Quote:
Barack Obama to the New Yorker: It's your right - but you weren't right.

In his first substantive talk about the magazine's inflammatory cartoon depicting him and his wife as fist-bumping terrorists, Obama told CNN's Larry King the image fueled misconceptions and insulted Muslim Americans.

"I know it was The New Yorker's attempt at satire. I don't think they were entirely successful with it," Obama said. "But you know what? It's a cartoon ... and that's why we've got the First Amendment."
LINK


Question: If the cartoon wasn't about Obama, a point about which at least most of us agree, then why is the cartoon about Muslims? If the point of the satire is to illustrate the absurdity of the way some on the right are attempting to portray Obama, couldn't the same be true re Muslims?

I don't think Obama is staying above the fray at all, but is attempting to make political hay with this now.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:47 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Question: If the cartoon wasn't about Obama, a point about which at least most of us agree, then why is the cartoon about Muslims? If the point of the satire is to illustrate the absurdity of the way some on the right are attempting to portray Obama, couldn't the same be true re Muslims?

Reread what he said.

Satire is tricky; you have to nail it or people will think you're serious.

Poorly done satire (which IMO the cover was) runs the risk of being taken seriously.

If the cover is taken seriously, then it adds to peoples fears of Muslims rather than lampooning such fears.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:56 pm
Perhaps Drewdad. Certainly all who didn't see the cartoon as satire would probably agree.

But taking oneself too seriously on such things and/or making a big deal out of something that was not intended, can back fire too. To wit Maureen Dowd's--nobody's idea of a right wing advocate--take on a growing perception of a humorless candidate:

May We Mock, Barack? NY TIMES LINK
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 04:40 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
[Obama:] "I know it was The New Yorker's attempt at satire. I don't think they were entirely successful with it," Obama said. "But you know what? It's a cartoon ... and that's why we've got the First Amendment."

How is this "making hay of it"? Isn't he doing exactly what he should be doing - downplaying it, shrugging it off? Considering he wasnt going to be able to avoid the question, what would you have had him say?

Up till now we've had a shared reaction and opinion to this story, but this time I'm thinking, is there anything he could have answered that you would not characterise as making hay of it?

It's funny, because Andrew Malcolm in a column today sharply criticized the Obama campaign for having reacted with a tin ear to the whole kerfluffle -- the thing I think we both agree on. But then he pointed to these remarks as exactly as the kind of thing Obama should have said right from the start; as the right answer. I agree with that too. This is what he wrote:

Quote:
Barack Obama tries to repair a PR blunder, but 2 days too late

As our Swamp colleagues report, Barack Obama finally commented last night on the highly controversial cover of this week's New Yorker magazine. And he said all the right things. But he was about 54 hours tardy.

Sunday, as soon as the elitist magazine released its provocative cartoon cover, Obama declined to comment, not wanting to elevate it to something important enough for a candidate to speak about. Fine. But, as The Ticket promptly reported here, advisors still sent out his communications director, Bill Burton, to denounce it:

"The New Yorker may think, as one of their staff explained to us, that their cover is a satirical lampoon of the caricature Sen. Obama's right-wing critics have tried to create. But most readers will see it as tasteless and offensive. And we agree." [..]

Denouncing it Sunday was an instinctive act. Genuine, to be sure. But really dumb damage control. It was a huge PR mistake by a campaign that doesn't make many. [..] If the cover is so tasteless and offensive, why purposely call it to the attention of millions of Americans with a strong denunciation on an otherwise slow news Sunday afternoon? It turned a mere magazine cover that the Obama campaign would rather no one see into a must-see for millions. [..]

[W]hat if Burton had made himself available -- that's not hard to do with reporters circling like hawks -- and waited for the inevitable New Yorker question and said something like, "C'mon, guys. It's a magazine cover, for Pete's sake. A cartoon. They think it's satire. It's a free country. It's sure not funny. We think there are far more important issues to put on the cover of a magazine, like the looming mortgage crisis that the Bush administration and its McCain cronies have ignored so long." [..]

We're now in Day Three of discussing the magazine cover that Obama didn't want many to see. So, last night on "Larry King Live," right out of the box before asking about Obama's main message, his big Iraq speech, old Larry goes right to the top issue: "We welcome to 'Larry King Live' Sen. Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. He made a major foreign policy address today in Washington. We'll get to that in a moment.

"But I've heard a lot of others comment on it. We haven't heard you speak about it yet. That New Yorker cover which depicts you and your wife, and you dressed in a Muslim outfit, your wife in a kind of military outfit, Osama bin Laden's picture burning [sic], what do you make of that?"

And Obama calmly replied: "Well, I know it was the New Yorker's attempt at satire. I don't think they were entirely successful with it. But you know what? It's a cartoon, Larry, and that's why we've got the 1st Amendment.

"And I think the American people are probably spending a little more time worrying about what's happening with the banking system and the housing market, and what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, than a cartoon. So I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it."

Smart stuff. Too late.

Imagine what else we might all be talking about this morning if that had been the campaign's opening response Sunday.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 04:42 pm
I strongly disagree with the notion that his campaign's response is what fueled the fervor over this; I think the media would have drummed up plenty of it all on their own, and Fox news would have been flashing the cover without any real prompting from Obama...

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 04:46 pm
Obama is an intelligent guy, and brought back the "real" issues of the day rather than trying to explain the value of a cartoon. Good on Obama!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:05 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Question: If the cartoon wasn't about Obama, a point about which at least most of us agree, then why is the cartoon about Muslims? If the point of the satire is to illustrate the absurdity of the way some on the right are attempting to portray Obama, couldn't the same be true re Muslims?

Reread what he said.

Satire is tricky; you have to nail it or people will think you're serious.

Poorly done satire (which IMO the cover was) runs the risk of being taken seriously.

If the cover is taken seriously, then it adds to peoples fears of Muslims rather than lampooning such fears.


True as regards the dynamics of satire, and possibly true about the failure of this particular satire, but what really was the extent of the risk?

Certainly not even close to great enough for the New Yorker to consider not publishing the cover.

BTW - Yours is a new angle: The cover contributes to fear of Muslims which is far less parochial than The cover contributes to the fear of Obama. Neither were/are worth the New Yorker's consideration, but at least you've tried to move it away from being all about Obama.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:12 pm
I'm enjoying agreeing with Finn, at least on the last post, and Fox for the nonce. It'll pass, of course. Also agreeing with herself, Maureen, which I don't always.

Indeed I nod with nimh re the late Obama comment.





As I used to say to my dog, Calmo! (Fbaezer, who lived in italy and I didn't, would know more if that is a legit imperative to a dog in that country - I got it from a textbook.)
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:21 pm
NickFun wrote:
Summarily, the materials I have seen quoted totally sucked. Or, shall I say, were entirely without artistic merit (to avoid offending the grammatically correct DrewDad).
Did good grammer ever make good writting? No.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:26 pm
nimh wrote:


The perfect response by Obama.

The question, of course, is whether or not his campaign reacted to the cover without consulting him.

I'm not sure we'll ever know, although Malcom clearly believes campaign staff went off the reservation.

My bet is that he was consulted, and whether or not the attempt to reshape the story succeeded or failed, Obama would have given the very same answer to Larry King's question.

I don't think the original reaction to the cover was an attempt to "make hay." I do think the campaign would have been very happy if the cover was never published and so it seems clear that they were looking to quash it rather than exploit it.

It did back fire on them though.

I was in an airport news stand yesterday and a fellow wearing cowboy boots and hat was looking for the New Yorker with the Obama cover. (The garb really means nothing but I know how so many of you like to sterotype Texans). When he found the July issue on sale he was clearly disappointed. I advised him that he needed to wait for the August issue to which he responded "Turn about is fair play isn't it?"

Obviously he had seen the cover and believed it was an attack against Obama, but I doubt he ever would have seen the cover if the Obama campaign didn't make a stink about it.

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:28 pm
Hmm. What a great question, Amigo. Go for it..


Me, I think it can enable or disable. Thus, it depends.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:38 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
nimh wrote:


The perfect response by Obama.

The question, of course, is whether or not his campaign reacted to the cover without consulting him.

I'm not sure we'll ever know, although Malcom clearly believes campaign staff went off the reservation.

My bet is that he was consulted, and whether or not the attempt to reshape the story succeeded or failed, Obama would have given the very same answer to Larry King's question.

I don't think the original reaction to the cover was an attempt to "make hay." I do think the campaign would have been very happy if the cover was never published and so it seems clear that they were looking to quash it rather than exploit it.

It did back fire on them though.

I was in an airport news stand yesterday and a fellow wearing cowboy boots and hat was looking for the New Yorker with the Obama cover. (The garb really means nothing but I know how so many of you like to sterotype Texans). When he found the July issue on sale he was clearly disappointed. I advised him that he needed to wait for the August issue to which he responded "Turn about is fair play isn't it?"

Obviously he had seen the cover and believed it was an attack against Obama, but I doubt he ever would have seen the cover if the Obama campaign didn't make a stink about it.



Oops - this is not a quote by nimh - it is a quote by me.

Here is the quote from nimh I meant to feature:

How is this "making hay of it"? Isn't he doing exactly what he should be doing - downplaying it, shrugging it off? Considering he wasnt going to be able to avoid the question, what would you have had him say?
0 Replies
 
 

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