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MichelleObama: Black and White Culture Not The Same

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 03:42 pm
Well, Thomas HAS seen me before....
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 03:45 pm
Not to apple polish, but they both have nicely analytic minds.
I didn't notice that Thomas had a beak.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 05:06 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
He has a good relationship with her because he's strong, not because he's weak, because he's secure and unafraid to make his life with an intelligent, strong, and outspoken woman.



I know you don't like weak women, you get bored so quick
And you don't like strong women 'cause they're hip to your tricks
It's been dirty for dirty down the line
But you know I come when you whistle, when you're loving and kind.

Joni Mitchell - You Turn Me On I'm A Radio
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 05:36 pm
The accounts that I have seen indicate that Michelle on the View stuck to the marketing plan.....considering that in my view the first line in the Candidate's Spouse Handbook reads "first do no harm to the campaigns" I think that this is a good thing.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 05:40 pm
So, are you complaining or exhilarating?
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 05:55 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Why does she (or any political spouse) have a role in the campaign? seems odd from outside of the U.S.

I've been trying to remember the names of spouses/partners of politicians here. Other than three or four over the past 40 years, I can't think of any. Spouses don't play any role in campaigns here.

If she's out campaigning, I think she's fair game.




(three or four is definitely a push - Olive, Margaret and Arlene - I'm stuck at that point)


If she is out there campaigning she is fair game --- absolutely.

There was a time, not so long ago, when the candidate's spouse who adopted the "adoring wife" role was off limits. No more. Now this role is ridiculed. If this is to be the case then certainly the spouse that voices his or her opinions on issues and policies is not off limits.

Obama gets all butch when his wife is criticized. He thinks she is off limits. I guess it can be seen as endearing, but presumably only by those who buy into the male protector image of wedded couples. Not so, of course. His Liberal supporters roar in support of this righteous machismo.

If she is not simply the mother of his children and the keeper of his household, it matters what she thinks.

It would damned well matter what my wife thinks because I count on her counsel whether it be in my personal or business lives.

Put us in the White House and she would have opinions on almost every issue and I have no doubt at all that I would listen to them.

Even if she only occassionaly influenced my decisions, her opinions, in effect, would have national importance.

It will be different with the Obamas?

I don't think so.

He can put her "in her place" in public and it will backfire bigtime. His supporters (with the possible exception of hawkeye) will not be pleased, and his opponents won't, for one second, buy it.

She believes what she believes. He loves and respects her. She influences him (witness membership in Trinity United). It's all good, but it is also all relevant.

She is entirely fair game, and if this is intolerable to the Obamas, he needs to shut her up and send her to the kitchen.

But of course this is not intolerable to them. This is all a political ploy.

He wants her as a surrogate. He wants her image to be a proud, intelligent and independent woman. He also wants her to be off limits.

The simple fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as "New Politics."

There may be New Candidates who try not to engage in politics, but they will lose, and Obama is not one of them.

President Obama will spread cynicism across America like a wildfire across dry plains.

The irony is tragic.
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 06:20 pm
Quote:
June 18, 2008, 7:06 pm
Leave the Wives Alone, Candidates Say
By Julie Bosman

Even the Christian Broadcasting Network can't escape the back-and-forth of the presidential campaign.
In a taped interview with the network, Senator Barack Obama suggested that Senator John McCain should have done more to tamp down attacks on Mr. Obama's wife, Michelle, who has been the target of false rumors and criticism about her personal character and her patriotism.
"I think families are off limits," Mr. Obama said, speaking in Taylor, Mich. "I would never consider making Cindy McCain a campaign issue. And if I saw people doing it, I would speak out against it. The fact that I haven't seen that from John McCain is, I think, a deep disappointment."
The McCain campaign issued a quick response to Mr. Obama's remarks, which were widely disseminated on blogs and on cable television.
"Senator McCain agrees with Senator Obama that spouses should not be an issue in this campaign, and he has stated that position frequently," Joe Pounder, a spokesman for Mr. McCain, said in a statement to CBN News. "Unfortunately, when the Democratic National Committee was attacking Mrs. McCain, Senator Obama was not strong enough to stand up and speak out. Obama's silence speaks volumes, and it's unfortunate that he would single out others for a standard he himself has failed to live up to."
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/leave-the-wives-alone-candidates-say/index.html?hp

They are both full of sh+t, if the spouses are going to be on the public stage giving their views so that we will know who they are, they are fair game. I don't think I have seen Mrs McCain doing this though, she is mostly silent and when she does speak she does not talk about herself she talks about what her husband wants to do. I am not sure why McCain thinks that the above statement is a good move. It is perhaps giving Obama the back of the hand for sending his wife out to sell him based upon who she is, making the charge that he is sending his woman out to do his work, making the charge that he is effeminate.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 06:35 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Put us in the White House and she would have opinions on almost every issue and I have no doubt at all that I would listen to them.


Pussy! Smile
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 08:34 pm
JTT wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Put us in the White House and she would have opinions on almost every issue and I have no doubt at all that I would listen to them.


Pussy! Smile


Whenever I can get it.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 08:37 pm
JTT wrote:
Fraternal twin, okay, identical, no way.

You wouldn't want to wish that upon any woman, would you, Thomas? Smile

Touche. Open mouth, insert foot. A good example why I will never become First Gentleman of the USA.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 08:40 pm
JTT wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Put us in the White House and she would have opinions on almost every issue and I have no doubt at all that I would listen to them.


Pussy! Smile


That, JTT, actually was an amusing response.

The only one in a long long line of feeble retorts, but I have to admit, that was good.

Of course it is liable to gather upon us both scorn and derision, but that's what, in part, makes it amusing.

Hang in there Grasshopper.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 08:41 pm
Thomas wrote:
JTT wrote:
Fraternal twin, okay, identical, no way.

You wouldn't want to wish that upon any woman, would you, Thomas? Smile

Touche. Open mouth, insert foot. A good example why I will never become First Gentleman of the USA.
An even better example would be (Thomas is an atheist, there's a far far better chance a muslim with dark skin will inhabit the whitehouse before an atheist does).
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2008 10:47 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:


Hang in there Grasshopper.


Yes, Master.

[size=7]Please please Master, give me one more grab at the pebble.[/size]
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firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 05:54 am
hawkeye, if they start digging up dirt on Cindy McCain, and using it in this campaign, it will be much uglier and much more damaging to her husband, than anything they could say about Michelle Obama.

First there is the matter that Cindy McCain, who is 18 years younger than her husband, met him when he was still married to his first wife and had an affair with him. Reminding voters about this, would not help when promoting her as representing family values. It would also remind voters of her husband's other rumored infidelities, and a story about his possible recent involvement with a female lobbyist floated around only a few months ago.

Even more damaging would be the whole story regarding Cindy McCain's past addiction to prescription drugs, her theft of such drugs, her investigation by the DEA, her husband's actions to manipulate the media and the justice system on her behalf, as well as the couple's tendancy to distort the truth about this entire business.

Quote:


We ran across a story written in 1994, a full 14 years ago, detailing the Cindy McCain "almost" drug-theft scandal which the McCains managed to weasel their way out of.

These days Cindy McCain is the picture of the glowing, supportive spouse of a politician running for President. It was a different picture back then, at least in private, as the McCain's managed to turn the tale of Cindy's scheme for stealing narcotics using the doctors who worked in the charity she ran, into one of "redemption".

At the time, journalists were willing to play along, the "tearful" confession, the claims of attempting to battle her addiction by seeking treatment, which turned out to be untrue.


GOP presidential candidate John McCain's wife Cindy took to the airwaves last week, recounting for Jane Pauley (on "Dateline") and Diane Sawyer (on "Good Morning America") the tale of her onetime addiction to Percocet and Vicodin, and the fact that she stole the drugs from her own nonprofit medical relief organization.

It was a brave and obviously painful thing to do.

It was also vintage McCain media manipulation. Source - Salon

The Phoenix New Times wrote an extensive piece covering the McCain's machinations to keep Cindy out of jail and out of the harsh public eye. After all, how would the the public feel about a woman who stole narcotics to feed her habit using the very doctors who worked for her charity? They also attempted to have the unintentional whistle-blower, Tom Gosinski, charged with extortion.

And it worked, to a "T".

From the John McCain website:

As an advocate for children's health care needs, Cindy founded and ran the American Voluntary Medical Team (AVMT) from 1988 to 1995. AVMT provided emergency medical and surgical care to impoverished children throughout the world. Cindy led 55 medical missions to third world and war-torn countries during AVMT's seven years of existence. On one of those missions, Mother Teresa convinced Cindy to take two babies in need of medical attention to the United States. One of those babies is now their adopted daughter, 15 year old Bridget McCain.
A friend of Cindy's, Tom was hired in September of 1991 as director of government and international affairs. Tom says that by the summer of 1992 he and other employees thought Cindy's behavior to be so erratic that "she was addicted to the prescription narcotics Percocet and Vicodin. They believed she was obtaining these drugs illegally in the names of her employees and the public charity she founded."

Tom kept a journal of those days, days where he took Cindy and the kids on trips and taught one of her children to swim, days where Cindy's behavior was the talk of the office.

July 20, 1992: Well, this morning I received a call from Francis Fote, a doctor who traveled to El Salvador with AVMT. Fote called to inform me that he had visited with Cindy on Friday regarding the use of his DEA number. He asked that I tell Cindy his number could only be used in the state of New York as that is where he is licensed. I do not know what Cindy is up to but it appears as though she is trying to use several doctors' DEA #'s so that she can acquire drugs for personal use. Kathy Walker has stated several times in the past that this has been going on for quite some time and that the DEA has questioned large acquisitions of drugs such as percocet. We know that 300 percocet have been missing from AVMT's inventory and that Cindy says they are locked up at her home. I really don't know what is going on but I certainly hope that Cindy does not get herself or AVMT in trouble. I also hope that if it is necessary, Cindy is able to get help before she does herself harm. . . .
By October Tom wrote that Cindy's parents, the wealthy Budweiser distributors, Jim and Smitty Hensley, had confronted Cindy about her drug abuse.

I understand that she told the Hensleys her addiction was rooted in her unhappiness--her marriage--and that she took the pills to mask her depression. The Hensleys told Cindy they knew she had a problem because of her severe mood swings and her change in character. They also said her meanness towards others was not excusable and must stop. . . .
A few days later Tom said that Cindy called him and told him something quite interesting, that she had contacted the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) herself, "and asked that an investigation be conducted to 'investigate allegations made against her.' She said a 'bogus' phone call had been received which made wild accusations about her and that she believed the phone call was 'political.' Cindy also said she had called the supposed originator of the call and that the individual denied ever making the call. . . ."

Cindy fired Tom in January 0f '93 citing a lack of funds to continue his position.

Because of Cindy's pattern of stealing the DEA numbers of the physicians who worked for her charity and using them to forge prescriptions under other unsuspecting person's names, Tom decided to find out if he had been one of Cindy's useful victims.

After he contacted the DEA he found that Cindy had indeed used his name twice on prescriptions in order to obtain narcotics for her own use. It was when he decided to file a wrongful termination lawsuit against AVMT that the full weight of the McCain's wrath and their attorney, John Dowd, fell upon him. Ironically it was Dowd who inadvertently exposed Cindy's drug use by going after Tom, claiming Tom's civil suit was "extortion".

In a "confidential" April 28 letter to Romley, Dowd blurted, "We believe that Mr. Gosinski is aware that in the past Cindy had an addiction to prescription painkillers. . . . Given Cindy's public position, exposure of this sensitive matter would harm her reputation, career, the operation of AVMT, and subject her to contempt and ridicule."


John Dowd

A former prosecutor, it was Dowd, as John McCain's attorney, who managed to keep McCain a peripheral character in the Keating Five Hearings. Dowd represented Fife Symington's $210 million settlement with the Resolution Trust Corporation. And it was Dowd the McCain's used as an attack dog against Tom. Dowd claimed Tom had attempted to "extort" Cindy while Tom had merely filed a wrongful termination suit.

There was now a civil suit, Tom's, which never got anywhere, and now charges of extortion against Tom, courtesy of the McCain's, and the investigation of Cindy and the AVMT by the DEA and the U.S. Attorney of drug acquisition and handling at AVMT.


"If she were charged in state court--and there is an offense that fits her case to a T--she's looking at Class 3 felonies," says one defense attorney. "If we assume conservatively that there were six separate counts, her liability in state court is astronomical. She could have been looking at ten to 20 years, with a presumptive sentence of 11.25 years and two-thirds served before she would be eligible for parole.
When the story of Cindy's drug use hit the streets Cindy told reporter Steve Meissner of the Arizona Daily Star that she had "completed a diversion program established by the U.S. Attorney's Office."

This was patently untrue. There was also the matter of when John McCain learned of his wife's penchant for pill popping and theft. According to Phoenix Gazette columnist John Kolbe, "it was John Dowd who informed the senator that his wife was an addict in January 1994. County records show that Dowd was representing Cindy McCain in talks with the DEA in May 1993."

Cindy also told reporters she had gone into rehab earlier that year, in '93, but she admitted to county investigators she had done rehabs in both '91 and '92.

It's All In The Presentation

Amy Silverman of Salon has the McCain's well-rehearsed schtick on how to manipulate the media and the public.

But both of Cindy McCain's staged, teary drug-addiction confessions have been vintage John McCain. His MO is this: Get the story out -- even if it's a negative story. Get it out first, with the spin you want, with the details you want and without the details you don't want.

McCain did it with the Keating Five, and with the story of the failure of his first marriage (Cindy is his second wife). So what you recall after the humble, honest interview, is not that McCain did favors for savings and loan failure Charlie Keating, or that he cheated on his wife, but instead what an upfront, righteous guy he is. Source - Salon

Cindy was never prosecuted for illegally pilfering controlled substances or the theft of physician's DEA numbers to illegally obtain narcotics, something other, less-well connected citizens have done time for in the slammer. Instead she's busy "standing by her man" in the 2008 presidential election.


Cindy McCain is also worth about $100 million, which certainly propels her out of the "typical American wife" status. And she is far from being just a stay-at-home mom. John McCain's campaign use of a corporate jet, owned by the company she heads, and what he pays for the use of that jet, has very much become an issue in terms of skirting the legalities associated with campaign spending. The Democratic National Committee hasn't really gone after Cindy McCain on a personal level, as her husband tried to imply, but they have questioned how he uses her assets, particularly that plane, in this campaign.

I realize the topic of this thread is Michelle Obama, and I am not posting the above to shift the topic, or to sling mud at Cindy McCain. I simply want to point out that there are good reasons to keep Cindy McCain in the background, and non-controversial, right now.

I also think that attempts to characterize Michelle Obama as an "angry Black woman" are designed to feed into racial animosities and heighten racial anxieities, in the minds of White voters. White people can get very uncomfortable with Black anger. That was part of the flack about Rev. Wright's remarks. Whether it's by using his minister, or his wife, they are trying to make voters uncomfortable with Obama by associating him with "Black anger".

These women are the candidate's wives, they are not the candidates. Whether they are opinioned or not, whether they are subserviant to their husbands or not, and whether they pursue their own interests or not, really should not matter.

A man's wife does influence him, simply by being his confidante. But you don't pick a President based on his wife. Regardless of his wife's humor, or her poking fun at him, Barack Obama just pulled off a stunning victory in gaining the Democratic nomination, particularly for a relative newcomer to the national stage. That hardly suggests he has been "emasculated" by his wife. His power and clout seem quite intact.

Rosalyn Carter sat in on Cabinet meetings, Hillary Clinton tried to reshape the health care system, Barbara Bush promoted literacy, Lady Bird Johnson campaigned on her own train to promote the Civil Rights Act, Eleanor Roosevelt....not enough space to describe her work...All First Ladies advise their husbands (Nancy Reagan even allegedly consulted astrologers for advice she may have passed on) on matters both big and small. And all First Ladies find a role they are comfortable with. The next one will too.

I think it's time we focused on the candidates and not their wives. The wives are only a distraction from more important issues. Michelle Obama's alleged "makeover" should not be on the front page of the NY Times, as it was yesterday. Sorry, that's not a top news item in my book.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 03:20 pm
firefly wrote:
hawkeye, if they start digging up dirt on Cindy McCain, and using it in this campaign, it will be much uglier and much more damaging to her husband, than anything they could say about Michelle Obama. quote]

If "they" "start?"
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eoe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 06:16 pm
yeah. they as in "the media".
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 06:19 pm
The Democratic Party organizations have not started to attack Cindy McCain in this campaign, despite John McCain's false assertion that Barack Obama stood by while the DNC attacked his wife. The DNC pressured her to release her tax returns and have raised questions about John McCain's use of her company's corporate jet. But no attacks of a personal nature have been directed at Mrs McCain by the DNC or any Democratic organizations. Michelle Obama, on the other hand, has been directly and personally attacked by GOP groups.

hawkeye had wondered why McCain made this assertion (I wonder about that too) and speculated that maybe it was because Obama sends his wife out to do his talking for him, implying Obama was effeminate to do that, while McCain's wife (apparently the good, well-behaved wife) remained silent, or talks only about what her husband wants to do, and does not talk about herself. That hypothesis really doesn't explain why McCain falsely accused the DNC of attacking his wife.
My comments in my last post were to suggest to hawkeye that there were good reasons why Cindy McCain might want to remain silent and not talk about herself. There are many things in her past, that reflect negatively on her character, that neither she nor her husband want to remind people about.

Cindy McCain, in an interview this morning, took another dig at Michelle Obama, for her, "For the first time in my life I'm really proud of my country" comment, pointing out how she, of course, has always been proud of her country, and couldn't explain why Mrs Obama felt the way she did. For one candidate's wife to make digs at another is really bad news.

There is absolutely nothing, in her past or her activities, to suggest that Michelle Obama is unpatriotic--which is how GOP organizations (and Mrs McCain) have tried to spin her comment. Even Laura Bush has recently come to Mrs Obama's defense and said she felt the comment was misinterpreted. Cindy McCain, given her own sordid baggage, should be the last person to start making digs at the other candidate's wife. There is nothing, at all, to suggest that Michelle Obama is not a woman of fine character. There is a lot, in Cindy McCain's past, to suggest that her character might be considerably more flawed. The less Mrs McCain opens her mouth, the better.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 06:23 pm
It would be wise for her to keep her mouth closed. And more wise for Mr. McCain to stay focused and not make false claims that can turn around and bite him in the ass. It's almost as if they're taunting Obama & Co. but I reeeeeally don't think they want to do that. Unless they're just wealthy and stupid.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 07:41 pm
eoe wrote:
It would be wise for her to keep her mouth closed. And more wise for Mr. McCain to stay focused and not make false claims that can turn around and bite him in the ass. It's almost as if they're taunting Obama & Co. but I reeeeeally don't think they want to do that. Unless they're just wealthy and stupid.
Clinton challenged Obama's manhood and he deflated, he never came up with the goods. McCain at this point has to figure that he can't....they will take Clinton's ball and run with it. For Obama it is lose/lose...if he does not respond he will be rejected by the voters because we can't stand to have rerun of Carter, and if he does man-up he loses his new age mojo.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2008 07:50 pm
Mrs. Obama exaggerated in the vein of "I never laughed so hard in my life". Nothing to see here. Pounding it in is ridiculous and will backfire because no one but the opposite choir will be interested in the twisting of it.

That being said; there is an equally important point, which some hypocrites are grasping just as ridiculously.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If "they" "start?"


Cindy McCain fell in love at 19 years old with a man who was clearly, at that point, married in a most dysfunctional way (this, of course, is no one's business but the McCain's). She has subsequently spent 28 years a loyal, loving wife to a true American Patriot. Bashing her is every bit as uncalled for as bashing Mrs. Obama. Partisan hypocrisy is as equally present as it is equally foolish from both sides.
0 Replies
 
 

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