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Hillary's Assasination Comment

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 06:25 am
Amigo wrote:
kickycan wrote:
Exactly how has Obama exploited racism?
By being black.


:-)

The NYT board has not been happy with Hillary lately; they agree re: the apology, JPB:


"Say What? Hillary Does it Again":

Quote:
May 23, 2008, 6:30 pm
Say What? Hillary Clinton Does it Again

By The Editorial Board

We have no idea what, exactly, Hillary Clinton was thinking when she referred to the assassination of Bobby Kennedy in explaining her decision to keep on campaigning when it looks like there is virtually no hope of her winning the Democratic nomination.

(We've supported her decision to do so. This is a democracy, after all.)

But she could, at least, have apologized.

Instead, she issued one of those tedious non-apology apologies in which it sounds like the person who is being offended is somehow at fault: "I regret that if my referencing that moment of trauma for our entire nation, and particularly for the Kennedy family was in any way offensive."

If?

Is it even possible that Mrs. Clinton thinks someone out there was not offended by her remark, Kennedy relative, Obama relative, or just plain folks?

Mrs. Clinton tried to excuse her inexcusable outburst by saying she was distracted by the shock of the news of Senator Edward Kennedy's malignant brain tumor. But there was something familiar about what she said, and thanks to Ben Smith of Politico, we remembered what it was. Mrs. Clinton said basically the same thing in an interview with Time on March 6:

"I think people have short memories. Primary contests used to last a lot longer. We all remember the great tragedy of Bobby Kennedy being assassinated in June in L.A."

What's next? "Mistakes were made"?


http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/23/say-what-hillary-clinton-does-it-again/

(Links in original.) (Warning, though -- there are a gazillion comments and it takes forever to load.)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 06:36 am
snood wrote:
I have done just that, nimh - taken a step back and thought about it...
...and upon reflection I'll just say that I don't know whether or not their was any calculation in her stupid choice of words, but that there's no disputing the damage its done to her nomination "effort".


OK. Good on ya, and yeah - I totally agree with this, of course!
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 10:07 am
I still think Clinton's remark was fairly innocuous. But it does highlight the unreality of Clinton's "strategy" of contesting the remaining Democratic primaries.

Observers have, since at least the North Carolina primary, asked why Clinton stays in the race when it is all-but impossible for her to win. She has replied that she has the right to stay in the race (which, as far as I can tell, no one has denied) and that we should let all the voters have their say (which has never been a major consideration in past nomination fights, but who cares about that?). What she hasn't explained, however, is exactly how she would be able to win the nomination by staying in the race. Even the addition of the Michigan and Florida delegations, which she has advocated with growing desperation, still won't give her the delegate lead. So how can she win?

Well, from what we can now tell by her RFK remarks, she can win if something happens between now and the convention. What that "something" might be we don't know -- and, frankly, it doesn't look like Clinton knows either. I doubt that Clinton is really pinning her hopes on an assassin's bullet, but that's the most specific she has ever been on the subject, so I guess we're left to focus on that.

In a sense, she is the Underpants Gnome candidate for the Democratic nomination. As fans of South Park are aware, the Underpants Gnomes steal children's underpants with the goal of making money. Their plan can be outlined as follows:
    (1) Collect underpants (2) ? (3) Profit!
Significantly, the second step remains unclear. The Underpants Gnomes understand the goal, and they are committed to stealing underpants as the means to that goal, but they are completely in the dark when it comes to the connection between the means and the end.

In the same way, Clinton's strategy for gaining the nomination can be outlined as follows:
    (1) Fight all the way to the convention but still end up with fewer delegates than Obama (2) ? (3) Get the nomination!
Just as the Underpants Gnomes can't connect the means with the end, Clinton has been rather hazy about how she goes from step 1 to step 3 in her quest for the nomination. With her remarks about RFK, however, we now can gain some insight into step 2 of Clinton's strategy:
    (1) Fight all the way to the convention but still end up with fewer delegates than Obama (2) A MIRACLE HAPPENS (3) Get the nomination!
As the primary season draws to a close, therefore, we should keep in mind that Clinton is not collecting delegates. She's collecting underpants.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 11:23 am
Laughing
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 11:40 am
A truly funny post, kudos to Joe

Cycloptichorn
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 11:44 am
That is good!

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/12/12/borat_thumbs_up_narrowweb__300x504,0.jpg
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 07:02 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Just as the Underpants Gnomes can't connect the means with the end, Clinton has been rather hazy about how she goes from step 1 to step 3 in her quest for the nomination. With her remarks about RFK, however, we now can gain some insight into step 2 of Clinton's strategy:
    (1) Fight all the way to the convention but still end up with fewer delegates than Obama (2) A MIRACLE HAPPENS (3) Get the nomination!
As the primary season draws to a close, therefore, we should keep in mind that Clinton is not collecting delegates. She's collecting underpants.

Brilliant Laughing
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 07:51 pm
I don't see with any certainty Clinton using the mention of a former presidential candidate's assassination as deliberate indicator of why "I'm staying in", even though it seemed, given the sentence flow, as one of the many possibilities for a candidate hanging on to or through June. I do get it that her emphasis was about lasting into June. Surely the a-word has been part of her realm. I'll grant that she could be afraid of such an event herself, and maybe has been over years.

Neither did I see that the word had to be mentioned, especially as engineer pointed out, again, especially in the context of staying in against Obama.

Nor that she meant it for sure specifically toward Obama. I surely don't know her heart.



Last I looked at Google News, it is now (partially) Obama's camp's fault.

Oy vey.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2008 07:58 pm
Just read Joe/Chi's post.

Yep.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 12:59 am
nimh wrote:
snood wrote:
A "slip of the tongue", nimh? Really? Like the slips about Obama not being prepared to be president, or the slip from her husband about Jackson winning Florida, or the slips about Fox News being fair and balanced? A "slip of the tongue"? I don't think this family - the Clintons - the ones that produced "the meaning of is"- slips up very much in what they intend by their words. They are bought and sold political animals


OK, here's a kind of doublethink I see many of my fellow Obama sympathisers having - and I think they're not even aware of the contradiction.

On the one hand you'll see them posting often enough about how incompetent a campaign Clinton has run. That Obama deserves the nomination even already because he's simply shown himself to be the better and more presightful organiser and strategist. How could she have lacked any post-Super Tuesday strategy? How could she have decided to simply skip the caucuses? How can someone as allegedly "ready on day one" as her make such major, lethal, basic mistakes? Add the uncontrollable f*ck-ups Bill is prone to and see - the argument goes - if nothing else, she has simply shown herself to be the less competent manager, the less skilled campaigner. The Clintons have just been up in their own bubble for so long, they've lost touch with reality in some ways, and end up making the most basic mistakes. Obama has done so much better, one cant help feel confident that he will run the better general elections campaign too.

And you know what? I agree with all of the above. I approve this message.

But then Hillary or Bill says something that many of the same Obama supporters find offensive. Something that suggests, at least indirectly, that they're pursuing a deliberate strategy of playing the race card against Obama, for example; or well - whatever, you know what I mean, we've seen countless examples. Either one of them will have said something more or less ambiguously offensive, and when Hillarybots argue that the media and those hypocritical Obama campaigners just twisted an innocent remark all out of context again, many Obama supporters will use this exact line of argument of Snood's here:

Nothing the Clintons say is just an "accident". They are political animals. They are devious, instinctive and unscrupulous political strategists, and you can bet yer life on it that everything they say, they damn well know what they're doing. If there's any implicit racial or other subtext to anything they say, no matter how off-hand a remark it may superficially seem to be, that could rally bigotry or fear - oh you'd better know that it's not an accident! They dont do slips of the tongue. If you think so, then you dont know the Clintons.

There never seems to be an awareness that these two lines of argument are directly in contradiction with each other.


Kind of like the argument that GWB is incompetent moron, and a diabolical schemer bent on stealing the liberties of his fellow Americans?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 01:15 am
nimh wrote:

I'm sure the more loony rightwing fringes and even some of the most fiery Obama supporters would theorise that Hillary "ordered" it...


Folks say the same thing, but one group is "looney" and the other is "fiery." Interesting.

The Obama crowd's jumping on this flap like a starving dog on roadkill is quite a spectacle.

First of all, what possible political advantage can it provide to Hillary to suggest that Obama might be assasinated?

Do the Obama supporters believe that anyone will not vote for Obama in the upcoming primaries because they are afraid he may get assasinated?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 04:36 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Kind of like the argument that GWB is incompetent moron, and a diabolical schemer bent on stealing the liberties of his fellow Americans?

Yep, kind of like that. (Though I think the traditional argument assigns all the diabolical scheming to Cheney...)

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Folks say the same thing, but one group is "looney" and the other is "fiery." Interesting.

Yep - all about the consistency. You know, how the Freepers have already been developing mad conspiracy theories about the Clintons and the various murders and evil plots they've been behind for 15 years, while the rare really fierce Obama supporters buying into any similar argument that stark now have no such track record - so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt of just being too caught up in the moment.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Do the Obama supporters believe that anyone will not vote for Obama in the upcoming primaries because they are afraid he may get assasinated?

I think any devious subliminal message that's attributed to Hillary here would be targeted at superdelegates actually, not at the few remaining primary voters.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 06:28 am
dyslexia wrote:
I didn't see the interview, was she wearing a flag pin?

Short answer: NO! :wink:
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 12:34 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
nimh wrote:

I'm sure the more loony rightwing fringes and even some of the most fiery Obama supporters would theorise that Hillary "ordered" it...


Folks say the same thing, but one group is "looney" and the other is "fiery." Interesting.

The Obama crowd's jumping on this flap like a starving dog on roadkill is quite a spectacle.




Do you ever have anything but straw men? Your inability to come up with anything but logical fallacies is the spectacle.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 08:57 pm
nimh wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Folks say the same thing, but one group is "looney" and the other is "fiery." Interesting.

Yep - all about the consistency. You know, how the Freepers have already been developing mad conspiracy theories about the Clintons and the various murders and evil plots they've been behind for 15 years, while the rare really fierce Obama supporters buying into any similar argument that stark now have no such track record - so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt of just being too caught up in the moment.

Oh, so it's all about fairness is it?

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Do the Obama supporters believe that anyone will not vote for Obama in the upcoming primaries because they are afraid he may get assasinated?

I think any devious subliminal message that's attributed to Hillary here would be targeted at superdelegates actually, not at the few remaining primary voters.

OK, do any of the Obama supporters believe that any superdelegate will throw his or her support to Clinton because they are afraid Obama may get assassinated?

Different alleged audience; same ridiculous proposal.



0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 09:26 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Oh, so it's all about fairness is it?

I do my imperfect best.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
OK, do any of the Obama supporters believe that any superdelegate will throw his or her support to Clinton because they are afraid Obama may get assassinated?

Different alleged audience; same ridiculous proposal.

Well you wont hear me defend the notion...

And in fairness, there's a lot of level-headed Obama supporters who have rejected the theory that Hillary's gaffe was all a deliberate plan to make superdelegates think twice..
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 11:25 pm
nimh wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Oh, so it's all about fairness is it?

I do my imperfect best.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
OK, do any of the Obama supporters believe that any superdelegate will throw his or her support to Clinton because they are afraid Obama may get assassinated?

Different alleged audience; same ridiculous proposal.

Well you wont hear me defend the notion...

And in fairness, there's a lot of level-headed Obama supporters who have rejected the theory that Hillary's gaffe was all a deliberate plan to make superdelegates think twice..


Again, it is a completely fabricated classic straw man argument. Finn takes the view of a few people and paints all "Obama supporters" as holding that view. The clown is too retarded to comprehend the idiocy of his nonsense.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 11:49 pm
I disagree with Finn much more than I agree with his posts but I don't think I have ever known him to call someone a clown, retard, or idiot. This seems to be unique to far left wing liberals.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2008 11:51 pm
rabel22 wrote:
I disagree with Finn much more than I agree with his posts but I don't think I have ever known him to call someone a clown, retard, or idiot. This seems to be unique to far left wing liberals.



The confused little f*** has called me a lot worse than that.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2008 01:57 am
Assassination Chatter and the End of Legitimacy
Posted May 27, 2008 | 12:33 AM (EST)


Legitimacy is the most elemental and elusive of political goods; a gift which only a society can give its leaders, and only the same society can take away.

To deprive a politician of legitimacy is long and serious work. A good deal of the process has always taken place behind the scenes before the evidence comes into view.

Thus, from 1994 onward, a language of generalized insult and contempt was used by Republicans about Bill Clinton in order to deprive him of the claim to be recognized as the legitimate holder of the office of president. Newt Gingrich and the Contract-with-America wing of the party were deliberate in the tactics they deployed. They coolly decided to use the word "sick" to characterize the Clintons and their policies. Instructions regarding which words of contempt to use and when to use them, went out in memorandums and were put into practice on pundit shows and talk radio. This story is told by David Brock, an insider who came to regret the part he played, in his memoir Blinded by the Right.

The delegitimation of Bill Clinton led from the sprawling fruitless Whitewater investigation to the Paula Jones suit to the interrogation of Monica Lewinsky to the impeachment of the president. On the whole this is not an episode Americans look back on with pride. When the Supreme Court in May 1997 decided that Paula Jones's lawsuit against a sitting president could go forward, because there was no reason to suppose it would interfere with his performance of his duties, the judges were oddly unanimous in their indifference to the power of legitimacy.

What Bill Clinton felt at the time is barely possible to imagine; the bitter taste the impeachment left with both Clintons, they have taken great pains to conceal.

We have seen a return this year to the politics of delegitimation by the extreme Republican right. Yet what has been most surprising is the complicity, and then the open participation in that process by the Clinton campaign. Race was always going to be an element in this year's election. But the comparison of the front runner Barack Obama to the marginal candidate Jesse Jackson on the pretext that both had won South Carolina was a shocker when people heard it come out of the mouth of Bill Clinton. Again, the talk, by Hillary Clinton and her operatives after Ohio, of "the commander in chief test" which (it was said) she and John McCain had "passed" but Obama mysteriously could not pass, was a second stroke of the same kind. There was no scientific or political content to the statement. Its significance was gestural. It was an effort to delegitimate Obama, and its truth could only be shown by its success or failure.

Hillary Clinton's recent careless-careful mention of the assassination of Robert Kennedy, in answer to a question about why she would stay in the Democratic race when all the numbers are against her, raised the tactics of delegitimation to a pitch as weird as anything the Clintons can have seen in the years 1997-98.

The most disturbing element of her remark was this: that it chose to treat assassination as just one more political possibility, one of the things that happen in our politics, like hecklers, lobbyists, and forced resignations. The slovenly morale and callousness of such a released fantasy is catching. So when, a few days later, the Fox News contributor Liz Trotta was asked her opinion of Senator Clinton's statement, Trotta said: "some are reading [it] as a suggestion that somebody knock off Osama...Obama. Well...both if we could!" Liz Trotta laughed as she said that. Later, she apologized, as Senator Clinton also has apologized.

Race comes easily and inevitably into discussions of Barack Obama, and never far from race is the thought of violence. It is there when you hear mentally feeble persons say, "I am afraid of this one; so afraid! something makes me afraid!" And race comes into the discussion when you hear clever people say, "He can never win the white vote; the white working class just aren't ready for him."

An unmeasurable but well-recorded condition for the assassination of John F. Kennedy was the campaign of delegitimation that preceded that terrible event. Anti-Castro Cubans hated Kennedy because he had disappointed them at the Bay of Pigs, and seemed to be a warm friend cooling. Many Southern white people hated him for his indications of solidarity with the cause of civil rights. There are other actors and reactions that might be added; but all shared the belief that Kennedy was not a legitimate leader, that he didn't deserve to be given the chance to go on governing. The hatred was especially virulent in the South. Death threats were in the air and Kennedy had been warned against taking the trip to Texas.

When a democratic society fails to honor the contract by which we elect our leaders in peace, and let them govern in peace, and show our approval or disapproval by keeping them or turning them out of office--when the incantation "He is not one of us" dips so far below sanity that we pretend the rules and decencies aren't in force any more--it is more than one person who is harmed. This loose way of talking and thinking of violence hardens us against real responsibility if the violent thing should happen. We are administering shocks to ourselves in advance so as not to be surprised by the actuality. But such preparations are in their very nature corrupt, and corrupting. And they are not less so when used against any person of dignity and estimation, on the public stage, than when they are leveled against an elected official.

William James wrote of the hope of democracy after the Civil War:


"The deadliest enemies of nations are not their foreign foes; they always dwell within their borders. And from these internal enemies civilization is always in need of being saved. The nation blest above all nations is she in whom the civic genius of the people does the saving day by day, by acts without external picturesqueness; by speaking, writing, voting reasonably; by smiting corruption swiftly; by good temper between parties; by the people knowing true men when they see them, and preferring them as leaders to rabid partisans or empty quacks. Such nations have no need of wars to save them."

The original meaning of the phrase "We shall overcome" is too often forgotten. The words didn't mean: "We--black and white people--will win equal rights for black people." They meant rather: "We--human beings--will overcome our savage impulse to settle our differences by violence. In both domestic and foreign arenas of dispute, we will overcome our endless reliance on short-violent-cuts to success."

The acceptance of political violence, apparent in the recent casual chatter of assassination, shows a despair of overcoming that is as monstrous in its way as the acts of violent men themselves.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bromwich/assassination-chatter-and_b_103619.html
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