Fox in the henhouse

I'm a male lesbian. Does that work?

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Chai wrote:

fishin wrote:

Error #1 - What makes you think every man that comments is seeking to take charge of any situation?

I did not say every man, I'm saying this this woman probably does not know how to tell the difference, and may in fact Want a man to take charge, whether she's thinking about it consciously or not.

But...

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As is obvious, I'm a very strong willed person. However difficult as it is for even me to believe, I ended up at one point with a husband who was a total control freak. Within a years time, he got me to the point where I didn't even know what to order in a restaurant, for fear he would criticize me, and tell me I don't like that.

I didn't need a man to become my new protector. I need women who set my ass straight as to what was going on.

Years ago, I remember sitting in an AA meeting room, talking to a young woman who was there for the first time. She was telling me more than just about her drinking, but didn't even realize it. She was saying she was afraid to be here, because a BF, who she wasn't even with any longer, would be mad if he found out she was here (trying to get better). One of the local "gurus" overheard our talk, which was going on really quietly (he made sure he was standing overly close) and lept in to "rescue" her.

I had this guys number, having seen him compromise newcomer women over and over again, and told him this was a private conversation. He left, shocked look on his face that someone called him on his bullshit. The young woman expressed shock I spoke that way to a man, to which I gave the standard answer that if she was there to get over drinking, to stay away from men for a year.

So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of men in general?

That, is an irrelevant statement.
I am not saying it is even a problem, either mine or men in general....however, if a person is having a problem with, let's say, cigarettes, it's probably best they don't sit in a smoke filled room. A rational, together woman will, upon ending a bad relationship, will probably not immediately jump into another one. First she will take time to separate herself, temporarily, from romantic situations, to figure out her future....I would hope a rational man would do the same thing when breaking up with a woman...take a little time away from.

A rational person, if approached by someone showing interest, will recognize that and have no problem discouraging it.

A broken person will have a much harder, or impossible time, sensing if someone is truly trying to help, or is doing it with another intent.

I don't see the danger, any negatives of a broken women temporarily abstaining from getting male advice and help, but I certainly see the danger of getting it.

I think a rational person would see that, and, back away.

In your previous post you stated "I didn't need..." and "I needed...". To me, that's identifying a problem which makes the question entirely relevant.

If a person is having a problem with cigarettes is it their issue to stay away from smoke filled rooms or the responsibility fo smoke filled rooms to stay away from them?

I don't see the danger in men refraining from commenting either. The issue I have is with the idea that you've expressed that men shouldn't comment. What men may or may not chose to do on their own is up to them. The "danger" is in the sexism apparent in one gender suggesting what the other should or shouldn't do.

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Vulnerable women, are....vulnerable. They need to be with people for a while where there is no chance of them being sidetracked.

Error #2 - You assume that all men wish to "sidetrack" women. Sorry, I have a wonderful gilrfriend who means the world to me and I have no interest in anyone else.

So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of women in general?

Err... I'd say "none of the above". There isn't any problem there at all.

Let me reframe the context of my comments on the general premise of this thread:

The basic idea that you've outlined is that there are "broken" women out there that come to this public forum to seek advise and counsel. Along with that, you suggest that since these women have had relationship issues men should refrain from commenting (at least initially).

Now, way back when, I took a course in conflict resolution and problem solving. The very first step in the entire chain of events was "Identify the problem." The second step was asking "Who's problem is it?". Once the problem and the person with the problem are identified it is incumbent upon that person to resolve the problem - they are the responsible party - they own it.

What you are suggesting here in this thread is that there are some women with problems in their dealings/relationships with men but that it somehow becomes the men's responsibility to own the problem (by not posting/avoiding/etc...).

That seems (to me) to allow the woman to avoid responsibility for owning the problem and at the same time, it creates the exact same situation you seem to be trying to prevent - women being dependent on men for answers/solutions/control.

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Chai wrote:

I said nothing about mother or father figures.

No, however, you have gone on and on about men as authority figures, and you did write this:

Chai wrote:

When I see a child, I understand they might not be capable of telling a bad person from a good one. I'm polite, give a little smile, but do not engage or encourage the child to bond with me, a stranger. They don't know me, they don't know I'm a good person. I'm glad they hold back, until they learn over time. I'm not offended.

. . . which suggests that one should approach women from failed relationships as though they were a child who might be frightened of a stranger. Do you assert that women are better equipped to approach a frightened child than are men?

Your suggestion seems to be that a woman can be trusted to deal with this delicate situation, but that a man cannot. Apart from being a blanket and indiscriminate slur of all men, it portrays women in some kind of heroic light, suggesting that no woman would ever hurt another women, but that men can be so reliably characterized as being a danger to women, that they should be excluded.

The people who come here seeking advice came here seeking advice, of their own free will. It is not unreasonable to assume that they are reasonably intelligent adults (at least sufficiently literate to post a more or less coherent thread), and it is unreasonable to treat them as frightened children who must be protected from the bad men.

Your analogy to a child you meet to whom you are a stranger is inept, and condescending, and is finally an insult to any woman who comes here with a problem. It reeks of the haughty rhetoric of feminists in the late 1960s and the 1970s and -80s who spoke as though the great majority of women don't know what is best for them, but their militant sisters are prepared to tell them. Some, perhaps, of those who come here are probably little more than children--but to assume that at the outset is not only insulting, it risks a failure to treat their problems in an adult manner. And to suggest that men should not respond is a stupid as saying that women should not participate in government because their place is in the home, and they are insufficiently self-assertive to deal with tough situations.

I give this thread a "D." The intent is probably genuine, but you completely fail to sustain the case you are trying to make.

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If someone comes into a relationship thread, and gives what you consider to be bad advice, you are free to say as much, whether the advice was offered by a man or a woman. Anyone offering good advice, male or female, should not be debarred from offering genuinely valuable assistance.

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wandeljw wrote:

Ragman wrote:
Good advice is genderless and bad advice can be dished out by anyone.

Well said, Ragman.

Ragman has a good point, Chai.

I personally do not give advice on the internet because I feel I am not qualified. However, I have a 25 year-old daughter who sometimes asks my opinion. Men with daughters can give sensitive advice to other women.

Men who have good relationships with their sisters are also capable of giving sensitive advice.

Yes, that is a good point....

but I am making a different point.

wandel, you do have a good relationship w/ your dtr, and can give good advice from her. Men CAN give good, sensitive advice. I have never said otherwise.

However, the person Receiving the advice may not be able to distinguish between a man who sincerely wants to help in a platonic, well meaning way, and one who uses the vulnerability and likely poor judgement (considering the situation the woman may be in) to compromise the woman.

I suppose I should be clearer and say I don't mean this to be just on A2K, or the internet, but, overall.

Can women give poor advice, or take advantage of another woman? Yes. Can men give poor advice or take advantage of other men? Of course.

We have all heard of how people who see counselors of the opposite sex run the higher risk of becoming emotionally attached to the person. Even believing they have fallen in love.

A good counselor of course knows this, and uses methods to deal with it.
A bad counselor can easily take advantage of it.

The patient looks at both the good counselor and the bad counselor as being good, and if suseptible can be taken advantage of.

Taking all non-counselors that would like to give advice to a broken woman, it seems that the proportion of creepy men in the male group is bigger than the proportion of creepy women in the female group.

Rather than try to convince someone that they are one of the non-creepy men is more work than just waiting for a while until the woman is able to see and make distinctions for herself.

I'm musing here....is it perhaps that a man might be thinking he has advice to offer that is unique from what a woman may offer another woman?

Reading and listening to both men and women giving advice of this sort, I don't believe I have ever read a bit of advice given by a man, that wasn't also given by a woman.

If you are a man, are you thinking you have words that only you are capable of to assist her? Or do you realize that a less threatening woman is capable of saying the same thing, and providing the same help.

50 men, 50 women....

5 creepy men, 1 creepy woman....The broken woman has a hard time seeing the creep factor. The odds are better at finding non creepy women, in the case of advising another female.

Could be reversed in the case of a distraught man...if so, I, as a female, would stay out of it and feel I was doing the best thing for the moment.

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Chai wrote:

I'm musing here....is it perhaps that a man might be thinking he has advice to offer that is unique from what a woman may offer another woman?

Reading and listening to both men and women giving advice of this sort, I don't believe I have ever read a bit of advice given by a man, that wasn't also given by a woman.

If you are a man, are you thinking you have words that only you are capable of to assist her? Or do you realize that a less threatening woman is capable of saying the same thing, and providing the same help.

These same questions/comments could just as easily be reversed and the answers would be the same... You've made it pretty clear that you think that there is advice only women can give.

I've seen plenty on threads where advice was given by men where no women gave the same advice. When someone posts how long are the men supposed to sit back and wait in your opinion? If someone posts and says they are going to commit suicide in 3 hours are the men supposed to sit around for 72 hours and hope a woman comes along in the meantime before suggesting resources?

How is someone supposed to know who the "threatening" men and "less threatening" women are? Do you presuppose that by virtue of being a woman that you are automatically less threatening?

It isn't a matter of whether or not men can offer some unique or better advice. It's a matter of whther the advice gets offered at all. If someone gives advice and you disagree with it then you are fully capable of saying so. If you agree with it you can point that out as well. The reader can decide for themselves which advice to accept.

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Chai wrote:

50 men, 50 women....

5 creepy men, 1 creepy woman....The broken woman has a hard time seeing the creep factor. The odds are better at finding non creepy women, in the case of advising another female.

So, you're saying that 10% of men are creeps, but only 2% of women are creeps?

It's gettin' deep in here, someone get me a gas mask and some hip boots . . .

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fishin wrote:

Chai wrote:
[So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of men in general?

That, is an irrelevant statement.
I am not saying it is even a problem, either mine or men in general....
Error #2 - You assume that all men wish to "sidetrack" women. Sorry, I have a wonderful gilrfriend who means the world to me and I have no interest in anyone else.

..........

So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of women in general?

Err... I'd say "none of the above". There isn't any problem there at all.

[/quote]

Err.....I was thinking you would see that this was the exact same question you asked me....and that I had already given the exact same answer you did.

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Setanta wrote:

Chai wrote:
50 men, 50 women....

5 creepy men, 1 creepy woman....The broken woman has a hard time seeing the creep factor. The odds are better at finding non creepy women, in the case of advising another female.

So, you're saying that 10% of men are creeps, but only 2% of women are creeps?

It's gettin' deep in here, someone get me a gas mask and some hip boots . . .

No, I'm not saying that.

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Chai wrote:

No, I'm not saying that.

Oh yeah? Then what was this?

Chai wrote:

The odds are better at finding non creepy women, in the case of advising another female.

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Setanta wrote:

Chai wrote:
I said nothing about mother or father figures.

No, however, you have gone on and on about men as authority figures, and you did write this:

Chai wrote:
When I see a child, I understand they might not be capable of telling a bad person from a good one. I'm polite, give a little smile, but do not engage or encourage the child to bond with me, a stranger. They don't know me, they don't know I'm a good person. I'm glad they hold back, until they learn over time. I'm not offended.

. . . which suggests that one should approach women from failed relationships as though they were a child who might be frightened of a stranger.

No, that is not what I am suggesting. I am stating that people because of either being inexperienced, or having been under the duress of abuse, are less capable of distinguishing between those who are offering help, and those who are not.

Do you assert that women are better equipped to approach a frightened child than are men?

Since that's not what we are discussing, I'm not going to sidetrack there.

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Chai wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Do you assert that women are better equipped to approach a frightened child than are men?

Since that's not what we are discussing, I'm not going to sidetrack there.

[/quote]

It's perfectly germane since you introduced the metaphor for the comparative behavior. So you're the one who sidetracked. Don't attempt to accuse me of "sidetracking" because i respond to a metaphor which you have introduced.

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Chai wrote:

fishin wrote:
Chai wrote:
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[So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of men in general?

That, is an irrelevant statement.
I am not saying it is even a problem, either mine or men in general....
Error #2 - You assume that all men wish to "sidetrack" women. Sorry, I have a wonderful gilrfriend who means the world to me and I have no interest in anyone else.

..........

So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of women in general?

Err... I'd say "none of the above". There isn't any problem there at all.

Err.....I was thinking you would see that this was the exact same question you asked me....and that I had already given the exact same answer you did.

The "exact same question" was in response to very different posts however. You stated "needs" that you had. I didn't. Wink

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Setanta wrote:

Do you assert that women are better equipped to approach a frightened child than are men?

I do. Men are much more likely to be sexual predators than women. Our kids are instructed to find a) a mommy, b) a woman, c) a police officer if they get lost.

Chai, you're missing a group in your thesis. How about men who tell women to just stand the hell up for themselves?

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Re: Fox in the henhouse

Chai wrote:

If a female comes here and is posting about man trouble, being abused, dominanted, feeling trapped by them, etc. etc. I do not think any man has any business becoming involved in the discussion,

Isn't this what Stray Cat was on about - men-only and women-only fora on A2K?

There are already websites that cater to people who want that kind of division.

That's not A2K.

I liked the comment someone made that if we think someone's made a dumb suggestion (by our definition), we're free to say that. Taken to the extreme, the advice-giver could tell the questioning-poster to go to another website where there are no men.

but men having no business posting in those threads as a matter of principle? I'd say nope, not a good plan.

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DrewDad wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Do you assert that women are better equipped to approach a frightened child than are men?

I do. Men are much more likely to be sexual predators than women. Our kids are instructed to find a) a mommy, b) a woman, c) a police officer if they get lost.

I don't know that that is necessarily the best sequence either. Stastically, women are more likely to be perpetrators of non-sexual child abuse then men are and mothers are at the top of that list. (I'd have to guess that that is based on greater proximity to children throughout the day more than human nature though...)

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I know you don't want to hear what I say
I know you're gonna keep turning away
But I've been there and if I can survive
I can keep you alive
I'm not above going through it again
I'm not above being cool for a while
If you're cruel to me I'll understand

Some people run from a possible fight
Some people figure they can never win
And although this is a fight I can lose
The accused is an innocent man

--from "Innocent Man" by Billy Joel

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Chai wrote:

I'm musing here....is it perhaps that a man might be thinking he has advice to offer that is unique from what a woman may offer another woman?

Reading and listening to both men and women giving advice of this sort, I don't believe I have ever read a bit of advice given by a man, that wasn't also given by a woman.

As a relative newbie on the forum - and one who doesn't have big confidence in dealing with "forum oldies" - I guess I am offering an opinion here, on the above quote, which I would not normally do - however, I do feel strongly about it.

When I came to the forum - I would consider myself "broken" in many departments - I did not know who was male or who was female when I started asking for advice. However, at that point "any advice" was going to be "advice" when you have nowhere else to go.

I'm not entirely sure I understand or agree with your line of thinking Chai - I do believe there are foxes out there - but I also believe a majority of the folk - male and female are good. If a lady was posting who was broken and one of the "creeps" stepped into their room - I think there are enough good people to call it. I know for sure people were watching out for me - in a good way when I came to THIS forum. I don't know about other forums or about the internet - I had never been on it in this way before Jan1st - so it's all new.

However - I do disagree with the fact that men are not able to give advice that women can give - the men on this forum - and I have only spoken to a few blokes here - but three men offered advice from their personal circumstances - that no female had offered. They also offered a completely different perspective. Why - because every person has their own experiences - whether they are male or female.

It is hard to know who to trust and who to listen to - especially when broken - BUT - there are good people there who, tho they may be silent in the bigger picture, and not entering the room where you're in - I believe they would speak up if they saw a man or woman taking advantage of someone who was desperately seeking help.

Maybe I'm wrong and naive - and certainly - I am a newbie still - but - I do think that men, NOT ALL, but some men have as much empathy and understanding in some situations and are able to help in a DIFFERENT way - I know I have been lucky so far.... the advice I was given was not gender specific - in fact - who really knows who is male or female unless you have spoken/met someone personally. Females can offer "poor" advice too - but on a public forum - that's the way it is.

In my personal situation - two men understood how I felt because they had personal experience. The advice, empathy and support they could give - well, if they hadn't - I would not be as "fixed" as I am now.

Does that make sense..... or am I just off on one of the rambles! Makes sense to me.

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wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
I know you don't want to hear what I say
I know you're gonna keep turning away
But I've been there and if I can survive
I can keep you alive
I'm not above going through it again
I'm not above being cool for a while
If you're cruel to me I'll understand

Some people run from a possible fight
Some people figure they can never win
And although this is a fight I can lose
The accused is an innocent man

--from "Innocent Man" by Billy Joel

Vry appropriate (and Billy Joel always makes me feel good).

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I think the entire point of the thread is that the man/people/idea is NOT that of an innocent person..

if that makes sense.

It isnt about ALL men.. it is about that one or two

those who literally 'foxes' in sheeps clothing.

not normal, well meaning people ( people being BOTH sexes..)

but the.. predator.. if you will..

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Fox in the henhouse

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