Fox in the henhouse

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Some will be offended by this topic. Oh well, won't be the first time.

Others will be disinterested, some might agree, still others want to debate, or even scorn.

I'll admit it, I am partly driven to write this because of the recent TTH thread, and the war that resulted between the "she's always been a pain in the ass" party, and the "hey everyone, quit being so mean to this poor defenseless soul" group. This isn't about TTH at all, just what sparked me.

I'm going to just lay it on the line.

If a female comes here and is posting about man trouble, being abused, dominanted, feeling trapped by them, etc. etc. I do not think any man has any business becoming involved in the discussion, lending support with little ((((hug)))) signs, showing up to express that most men are just wonderful, and so on.

If a man feels his adivse is essential, and cannot stop themselves, their support should be given in the absolute most basic way....as in letting them know support is available through agencies, and womens support groups. As I'm typing, I remember what Lord Ellpus used to say to women expressing their distress....he would simply say there are many "lovely ladies" here who are here to listen and help, and to find support with them.

Do most men feel upset when a woman is being treated badly because of their sex? Of course. Do they want a devestated women to find their way out of their problem? Again, yes. If they know of a specific agency in the womens area that can help them, should they mention it? Yes once more.

However, when women are being abused by men, when women are in a situation where they feel they should be listening to what the man in their life, be it a father, husband, BF, etc is saying because it's all the woman knows how to do....they, quite frankly, do not need a man at that point overly lending his support.

If you are honestly a good, got it together guy, you may not fully realize you can be simply substituting one male authority figure for another. If you are a not so got it together guy....you totally realize how easily you can influence this person, and are banking on the fact others won't call you on it.....using either the standard "I'm trying to help" to ridiculing the person calling them out, in hopes of taking the attention off of them

Sadly, that succeeds, a lot, because of PC bull.

As Tracy Chapman says, "Baby I got your number"

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(((chai)))

Twisted Evil

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that's not even funny....seriously.

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Absolutely complete bullsheet...

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says 2 men, one who jokes about it, and the other who resorts the the ridicule.

As usual, I'm going to be blunt.

Women who end up with men who dominated them, many times believe that is the mans place, to be in charge.

What they don't need at first is another man to come in and take charge.

As is obvious, I'm a very strong willed person. However difficult as it is for even me to believe, I ended up at one point with a husband who was a total control freak. Within a years time, he got me to the point where I didn't even know what to order in a restaurant, for fear he would criticize me, and tell me I don't like that.

I didn't need a man to become my new protector. I need women who set my ass straight as to what was going on.

Years ago, I remember sitting in an AA meeting room, talking to a young woman who was there for the first time. She was telling me more than just about her drinking, but didn't even realize it. She was saying she was afraid to be here, because a BF, who she wasn't even with any longer, would be mad if he found out she was here (trying to get better). One of the local "gurus" overheard our talk, which was going on really quietly (he made sure he was standing overly close) and lept in to "rescue" her.

I had this guys number, having seen him compromise newcomer women over and over again, and told him this was a private conversation. He left, shocked look on his face that someone called him on his bullshit. The young woman expressed shock I spoke that way to a man, to which I gave the standard answer that if she was there to get over drinking, to stay away from men for a year.

Vulnerable women, are....vulnerable. They need to be with people for a while where there is no chance of them being sidetracked.

It's not bullshit fishin', it's not politically correct. It makes men think women who tell them to keep their distance from this broken person hates men. Not true.

Women who tell men to initially keep their distance know sex is a powerful tool...and broken women see sex as a form of protection.

Women who tell men to intially keep their distance are telling them to let the "nice ladies" help them until they get their minds a little straight.

I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I'd rather have someone tell me I'm full of ****, and still know I'm doing the right thing, then stand by and watch a slow train wreck.

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I know where this is coming from.

I cant help but agree..

Aside from the foxes ... there are men who genuinely will just HELP someone..

but.. birds of a feather ...

If the woman is used to being abused.. attracts abusive men.. then the over dominating man will feel comfortable.

age gaps

creepy ****

lemme tell you how it is

eh..

i will write more later.
Im incoherent with out coffee

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Maybe what you claim would concern some in the context of a room full of real people, in realtime.

But your claims seem kind'a silly in the context of an Internet forum, where realtime socio-sexual dynamics, if they can be said to exist at all, are wholly a matter of presentation and perception of text.

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Yes and no.

There are proven track records..

then there is just the person who TRULY wants to help.

and the difference in the behavior between the two is astounding..

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though I do want to disagree with the point of ...essentially that only women should give that kind of advice.

again,, there are generally helpfull people, of each sex.

it is.. what is BEHIND that .. that is odd.. but.. eh.. I still see the point..
but it doesnt quite fit.. for me at least..

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Chai wrote:

Women who end up with men who dominated them, many times believe that is the mans place, to be in charge.

True enough - but entirely irrelevant to my response.

Quote:

What they don't need at first is another man to come in and take charge.

Error #1 - What makes you think every man that comments is seeking to take charge of any situation?

Quote:

As is obvious, I'm a very strong willed person. However difficult as it is for even me to believe, I ended up at one point with a husband who was a total control freak. Within a years time, he got me to the point where I didn't even know what to order in a restaurant, for fear he would criticize me, and tell me I don't like that.

I didn't need a man to become my new protector. I need women who set my ass straight as to what was going on.

Years ago, I remember sitting in an AA meeting room, talking to a young woman who was there for the first time. She was telling me more than just about her drinking, but didn't even realize it. She was saying she was afraid to be here, because a BF, who she wasn't even with any longer, would be mad if he found out she was here (trying to get better). One of the local "gurus" overheard our talk, which was going on really quietly (he made sure he was standing overly close) and lept in to "rescue" her.

I had this guys number, having seen him compromise newcomer women over and over again, and told him this was a private conversation. He left, shocked look on his face that someone called him on his bullshit. The young woman expressed shock I spoke that way to a man, to which I gave the standard answer that if she was there to get over drinking, to stay away from men for a year.

So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of men in general?

Quote:

Vulnerable women, are....vulnerable. They need to be with people for a while where there is no chance of them being sidetracked.

Error #2 - You assume that all men wish to "sidetrack" women. Sorry, I have a wonderful gilrfriend who means the world to me and I have no interest in anyone else.

Quote:

It's not bullshit fishin', it's not politically correct. It makes men think women who tell them to keep their distance from this broken person hates men. Not true.

I have no idea where you got this from. I guess there probebly are some men that might feel that way but I don't know of any. It isn't an issue of women who may or may not hate men. It's the double-standard being promoted that somehow men are incapable of empathy or the ability to be helpful when it comes to personal/relationship issues.

Quote:

Women who tell men to initially keep their distance know sex is a powerful tool...and broken women see sex as a form of protection.

Women who tell men to initially keep their distance are telling them to let the "nice ladies" help them until they get their minds a little straight.

Women who tell men to keep their distance also perpetuate a stereotype of all men as predators and reinforce the fear of other men... Do you promote the idea that women shouldn't respond to posts from men when it comes to relationship issues too?

Quote:

I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I'd rather have someone tell me I'm full of ****, and still know I'm doing the right thing, then stand by and watch a slow train wreck.

You may not have fallen off the turnip truck but this is an open forum. If someone wishes to avoid a trainwreck then they should accept the responsibility for controlling their own train.

When someone posts here, unless they are well-known, long-time posters, we have no way of knowing their history. We see only what they reveal. Most responses are fairly well tempered unless the person IS a long-time poster and they have a history. And those train wrecks are usually based more on their past history than anything else. The newbie that posts rarely gets anything other than helpful responses - whether they are from men or women.

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shewolfnm wrote:

Yes and no.

There are proven track records..

then there is just the person who TRULY wants to help.

and the difference in the behavior between the two is astounding..

My post was addressing Chai's first post in this thread. Interestingly and unintentionally, it also seems to work as a response to yours, and in that context I might ask how much faith one can put in one's perception of the sexualiztion of plain Internet text.

I suggest that the socio-sexual dynamics that some may believe is inherent to plain Internet text, in particular that there is some sort of a definitive masculine text separate from feminine text, is rather a belief of the reader.

Reminds me of the Turing Test!

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Chai wrote:

that's not even funny....seriously.

it was a little funny

i try my best to stay out of any thread where anyone appears to be soliciting serious advice

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fishin, and you are looking at this from your personal perspective, that you are a normal guy, really do want to help, and all those other wonderful things.

Which is absolutely great, no sarcasm intended.

What I am saying, is that, for lack of a better term, "broken" women are many times incapable of determining who is, again, for simplicities sakes I'm going to label "creepy" (just so I don't have to redefine every time" and someone who is a stand up guy.

Ok, I look at it this way....

If a person, any person is having a problem, one of the best ways to help someone is to attempt to put themselves into their shoes...empathy...which BTW, I have been accused of not having Rolling Eyes

Putting myself in the shoes of a broken woman, this is, partly, what I see....

I'm someone who has come to the belief that men know best. It doesn't matter what type of man you are....you know best. In fact, that belief is so engrained in me, I can't even distinguish, or can't distinguish very well, the difference between a creep and a stand up guy.

Because I can't tell the difference, and don't even know I can't tell the difference, I'm not the best judge if it would come to having someone male mentor me (at this time).

No, I'm not saying this will turn the healing woman into a man hating, bitter person. I'm saying that until this woman's head clears, and she's got her thoughts more straight, she doesn't know if she's looking at a fox, or a run of the mill normal beagle.

The stand up guy shouldn't be offended that he is probably not the best choice to help out immedialtely....his time will come, down the line.

When the woman has her head someone back together, she will be capable of looking and discerning who is a stand up guy, and who is not.

When I see a child, I understand they might not be capable of telling a bad person from a good one. I'm polite, give a little smile, but do not engage or encourage the child to bond with me, a stranger. They don't know me, they don't know I'm a good person. I'm glad they hold back, until they learn over time. I'm not offended.

People like to give credit to others for having intelligence, good decision making ability, and to know what is best for them and that they will persue it in a thoughtful way.

A broken woman may be intelligent, or not...I won't address that. BUT, I don't think it's immediately wise to give them credit for having the ability to make good decisions and know what is best for them. Going by their track history, they don't posses these skills.

As they heal, they will learn these things. They will come to a point where they can decide for themself what is best for them, something they may have never done.

Don't worry stand up guys, you will have your chance to help her understand many people are good.

I feel it is setting a woman up for a much harder time, or failure, if she's not given "away time" from a group she cannot make good decesions about.

On the whole, I think an abused woman does not general know what is best for her. She will one day though.

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So, you see women from failed relationships as children? Do you assert that it is better if you play mama to them than that a man would play papa?

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Chai wrote:

What I am saying, is that, for lack of a better term, "broken" women are many times incapable of determining who is, again, for simplicities sakes I'm going to label "creepy" (just so I don't have to redefine every time" and someone who is a stand up guy.

IMO, the "better" solution is for people to publicly call out the "creppy" people on their comments when/if they post them.

Quote:

Because I can't tell the difference, and don't even know I can't tell the difference, I'm not the best judge if it would come to having someone male mentor me (at this time).

Again IMO, if someone is coming here to be mentored they're in the wrong place to begin with... Wink

On-line sites are great places for people to get alternative veiwpoints on questions (ie. Other angles to look at things from). They aren't very good places for specific personal advice as every relationship is unique.

Quote:

When I see a child, I understand they might not be capable of telling a bad person from a good one. I'm polite, give a little smile, but do not engage or encourage the child to bond with me, a stranger. They don't know me, they don't know I'm a good person. I'm glad they hold back, until they learn over time. I'm not offended.

Fair enough. And when you are responsible for a child do you warn them about talking to/trusting strangers or do you wander around telling every stranger not to talk to your child? The latter is, in effect, what your thread here is doing.

Quote:

I feel it is setting a woman up for a much harder time, or failure, if she's not given "away time" from a group she cannot make good decesions about.

I can understand that. So do you tell these women not to post here? I mean, this is an open site. Anyone can register and post. If I step into a public place and there both men and women present I don't expect that I can magically avoid all contact with women. The question here is "Who's responsibility is it to avoid the contact?".

Quote:

On the whole, I think an abused woman does not general know what is best for her. She will one day though.

I would hope so as well. I just disagree that it is somehow incumbent on men to avoid "fragile' women. To begin with, the creeps aren't likely to heed your advice so the woman is left with only creepy men responding. Secondly, unless the person is already known to me I have no way of knowing who is "broken" and who isn't. I had no idea of your own history until this thread and we've both been on here for some time now. And neither of us has any way of knowing who's input the original poster is seeking unless they specifically state something. If an abused woman asks for comments form men do you still think men should avoid responding and only women should reply?

So... It seems to me that a better solution is for EVERYONE to focus on being helpful and for those "in the know" to publicly denounce those who aren't helpful. That serves multiple purposes - if they know they'll be called on it, the "creeps" aren't as likely to post to begin with, the person with the original issue gets the luxury of having the creeps pointed out to them and they can also see that no single gender has all the answers.

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I've got a hound dog and a shotgun. Can I help?

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fishin wrote:

Error #1 - What makes you think every man that comments is seeking to take charge of any situation?

I did not say every man, I'm saying this this woman probably does not know how to tell the difference, and may in fact Want a man to take charge, whether she's thinking about it consciously or not.

Quote:
As is obvious, I'm a very strong willed person. However difficult as it is for even me to believe, I ended up at one point with a husband who was a total control freak. Within a years time, he got me to the point where I didn't even know what to order in a restaurant, for fear he would criticize me, and tell me I don't like that.

I didn't need a man to become my new protector. I need women who set my ass straight as to what was going on.

Years ago, I remember sitting in an AA meeting room, talking to a young woman who was there for the first time. She was telling me more than just about her drinking, but didn't even realize it. She was saying she was afraid to be here, because a BF, who she wasn't even with any longer, would be mad if he found out she was here (trying to get better). One of the local "gurus" overheard our talk, which was going on really quietly (he made sure he was standing overly close) and lept in to "rescue" her.

I had this guys number, having seen him compromise newcomer women over and over again, and told him this was a private conversation. He left, shocked look on his face that someone called him on his bullshit. The young woman expressed shock I spoke that way to a man, to which I gave the standard answer that if she was there to get over drinking, to stay away from men for a year.

So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of men in general?

That, is an irrelevant statement.
I am not saying it is even a problem, either mine or men in general....however, if a person is having a problem with, let's say, cigarettes, it's probably best they don't sit in a smoke filled room. A rational, together woman will, upon ending a bad relationship, will probably not immediately jump into another one. First she will take time to separate herself, temporarily, from romantic situations, to figure out her future....I would hope a rational man would do the same thing when breaking up with a woman...take a little time away from.

A rational person, if approached by someone showing interest, will recognize that and have no problem discouraging it.

A broken person will have a much harder, or impossible time, sensing if someone is truly trying to help, or is doing it with another intent.

I don't see the danger, any negatives of a broken women temporarily abstaining from getting male advice and help, but I certainly see the danger of getting it.

I think a rational person would see that, and, back away.

Quote:
Vulnerable women, are....vulnerable. They need to be with people for a while where there is no chance of them being sidetracked.

Error #2 - You assume that all men wish to "sidetrack" women. Sorry, I have a wonderful gilrfriend who means the world to me and I have no interest in anyone else.

So does all of this make the issue YOUR problem? Or the problem of women in general?

Quote:
It's not bullshit fishin', it's not politically correct. It makes men think women who tell them to keep their distance from this broken person hates men. Not true.

I have no idea where you got this from. I guess there probebly are some men that might feel that way but I don't know of any. It isn't an issue of women who may or may not hate men. It's the double-standard being promoted that somehow men are incapable of empathy or the ability to be helpful when it comes to personal/relationship issues.

It may be correct that you don't know any men that feel that way...but, it may not be something you would discuss with them.

It has nothing to do with being incable of empathy, it's a matter of common sense.

Quote:
Women who tell men to initially keep their distance know sex is a powerful tool...and broken women see sex as a form of protection.

Women who tell men to initially keep their distance are telling them to let the "nice ladies" help them until they get their minds a little straight.

Women who tell men to keep their distance also perpetuate a stereotype of all men as predators and reinforce the fear of other men... Do you promote the idea that women shouldn't respond to posts from men when it comes to relationship issues too?

Addressed in my prior post...I didn't say forever, I am saying temporarily, until the woman can choose

Quote:
I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I'd rather have someone tell me I'm full of ****, and still know I'm doing the right thing, then stand by and watch a slow train wreck.

You may not have fallen off the turnip truck but this is an open forum. If someone wishes to avoid a trainwreck then they should accept the responsibility for controlling their own train.

When someone posts here, unless they are well-known, long-time posters, we have no way of knowing their history. We see only what they reveal. Most responses are fairly well tempered unless the person IS a long-time poster and they have a history. And those train wrecks are usually based more on their past history than anything else. The newbie that posts rarely gets anything other than helpful responses - whether they are from men or women.

That is true, that they rarely get anything other than....but not always.

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I've read all the responses and find that there are some good points made here. I think some or maybe even MOST people should refrain from offering advice, especially when it comes to this sometimes life-and-death matter, unless it means advising the person (if their safety is at stake), where the nearest shelter is for them.

Good advice is genderless and bad advice can be dished out by anyone.

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Setanta wrote:

So, you see women from failed relationships as children? Do you assert that it is better if you play mama to them than that a man would play papa?

No I don't see them as children.

I see them as people who may not be capable of seeing their own best self interest. I see no harm in, and much benefit from, erring on the side of caution.

It's more like....."First do no harm"

At safe houses for women, men are not invited in. If they were insistant of being let in, I'd be concerned. A rational man will understand no harm will come from initially not being allowed contact, and will see how their presence can harm.

I said nothing about mother or father figures.

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Ragman wrote:

Good advice is genderless and bad advice can be dished out by anyone.

Well said, Ragman.

Ragman has a good point, Chai.

I personally do not give advice on the internet because I feel I am not qualified. However, I have a 25 year-old daughter who sometimes asks my opinion. Men with daughters can give sensitive advice to other women.

Men who have good relationships with their sisters are also capable of giving sensitive advice.

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Fox in the henhouse

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