A quick story about racism.

@hawkeye10,

What about the exact same situation
not in a workplace, but among people waiting in line for a train or bus ?

@Diest TKO,

Quote:

professionalism

Definition
Meticulous adherence to undeviating courtesy, honesty, and responsibility in one's dealings with customers and associates, plus a level of excellence that goes over and above the commercial considerations and legal requirements.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/professionalism.html

so TKO you were hypervigalent re courtesy towards a race (and there was not even a substantial discourtesy towards any individual) but at the expense of honesty....please explain how you advanced the cause of professionalism.

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

I am standing up for freedom of thought and for freedom of speech.
I will continue to defend them for the duration of my life.

David

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
professionalism

Definition
Meticulous adherence to undeviating courtesy, honesty, and responsibility in one's dealings with customers and associates, plus a level of excellence that goes over and above the commercial considerations and legal requirements.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/professionalism.html

so TKO you were hypervigalent re courtesy towards a race (and there was not even a substantial discourtesy towards any individual) but at the expense of honesty....please explain how you advanced the cause of professionalism.

Explain how I didn't. How in anyway was I dishonest? Did I lie or omit any information to the other team leader? No. I told him directly and in sober terms what happened and its honest effect on my team.

Thanks for fetching the definition of professionalism for the thread to dig your vacant argument's grave.

T
K
O

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

and your guns will be taken by prying your cold, dead fingers from them but you will have made your point.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

This is not an issue of freedoms David. Your attempt to defend this kind of ignorance under the guise of principle is not fooling anyone.

T
K
O

1 Reply

Really, what we are looking at here
is an effort by people of one school of thought
to use "good taste" as a weapon to stifle dissent from their point of vu.

David

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

What about the exact same situation
not in a workplace, but among people waiting in line for a train or bus ?

it could not be the same situation, because there are no bosses at the bus stop. TKO would have had to be a man and stand up for his position with the one with whom he disagreed , and perhaps the two could have had a conversation where one or both of them might have learned something.

I likely would not have said anything at the bus stop, because as you know I think that people are free to think, believe, say anything that they want, and I would probably have better things to do then to enter into a debate right at that moment. Though I have been known to do just that. I certainly would not have done what TKO did, I would object on the spot if I felt strongly, or let it go.

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

This is not an issue of freedoms David. [ ?? ]
Your attempt to defend this kind of ignorance under the guise of principle is not fooling anyone.

T
K
O

The HELL its not !

2 Replies

@Diest TKO,

Quote:

Explain how I didn't. How in anyway was I dishonest? Did I lie or omit any information to the other team leader? No. I told him directly and in sober terms what happened and its honest effect on my team.

The person whom you got into trouble with his boss was being honest in his communication, only you did not like what his position was. The lesson to all is that only certain forms of honesty are approved. This has a corrosive effect upon team dynamics and team production.

You were also not as honest and forthright as you think you were, as in American Judicial process we have the standard that the accused gets to face his accuser. This is done out of fairness, and you deprived your opponent of this basic avenue of fair play.

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

It isn't. How could it be?

I didn't tell the other team lead how to manage his team. I only told him what happened and how it effected my team. Those team members were as free the next day as the previous to speak and think as they wished.

Their freedoms intact.
K
O

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawk

Quote:

I likely would not have said anything at the bus stop, because as you know I think that people are free to think, believe, say anything that they want, and I would probably have better things to do then to enter into a debate right at that moment.

agree with you 100%...I would have kept my mouth shut.

hawk

Quote:

it could not be the same situation, because there are no bosses at the bus stop.

exactly, whereas Diest had to handle the situation differently and follow guidelines placed by the government, state and local governments and his company and bosses. Unfortunately hawkeye, companies have a big say in what kind of language is used in their environs...that's a small individual freedom that isn't open to debate in the workplace

2 Replies

@panzade,

Quote:

exactly, whereas Diest had to handle the situation differently and follow guidelines placed by the government, state and local governments and his company and bosses. Unfortunately hawkeye, companies have a big say in what kind of language is used in their environs...that's a small individual freedom that isn't open to debate in the workplace

THis is true, and employers have a point that they open themselves up to legal liability of they do not police personal conduct in their workplaces. However, the test of conduct is mostly where the line of offense is. If no one takes offense then the conduct is fine. TKO and his team, by taking offense and communicating this offense, triggered the other teams legal requirement to deal with the individual on their team. TKO had the discretion to let this go. There is a good argument that they should have done so.

Furthermore, the other team leader thanking TKO for bringing this to his attention was doing the legal requirement that he was called to do. Who knows what he really thought. He was not in a position that allowed for his personal honesty.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Explain how I didn't. How in anyway was I dishonest? Did I lie or omit any information to the other team leader? No. I told him directly and in sober terms what happened and its honest effect on my team.

The person whom you got into trouble with his boss was being honest in his communication, only you did not like what his position was. The lesson to all is that only certain forms of honesty are approved. This has a corrosive effect upon team dynamics and team production.

You were also not as honest and forthright as you think you were, as in American Judicial process we have the standard that the accused gets to face his accuser. This is done out of fairness, and you deprived your opponent of this basic avenue of fair play.

I'm starting to get a picture of how illogical you are.

The person who got in trouble was NOT being honest. Honesty had nothing to do with what he said. Saying something is to be "africa-engineered" has nothing to do with honesty. There is no honesty in it, only unnecessary racial defamation to describe a means which has numerous other expression available that don't defamate a group.

The person was free to come and speak to me. They knew who I was and that I spoke to his team lead. I was always available.

It's interesting the language you and david attempt to use here. It's all about policing thoughts or how the judicial system works as if this person was put on trial. This just isn't the case at all.

As for this bus stop proposal, the dynamic would be different. I would be on equal footing, and so it would be perfectly fine to address the person directly. the same would apply if I was on the same team as the person who had said this. Had we been on equal footing it would have been just fine to talk to him directly.

I'd absolutely LOVE to hear what you think I could learn from some bus stop person saying racist things. This imaginary after school special where I the naive young guy learns the merits of racism from a guy at the bus stop. I'm sure it ends with a pensive look off into the distance and then I look adoringly into their face and say :I never thought of it that way. I really should be more careful around the blacks."

You're an idiot.

T
K
O

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
exactly, whereas Diest had to handle the situation differently and follow guidelines placed by the government, state and local governments and his company and bosses. Unfortunately hawkeye, companies have a big say in what kind of language is used in their environs...that's a small individual freedom that isn't open to debate in the workplace

THis is true, and employers have a point that they open themselves up to legal liability of they do not police personal conduct in their workplaces. However, the test of conduct is mostly where the line of offense is. If no one takes offense then the conduct is fine. TKO and his team, by taking offense and communicating this offense, triggered the other teams legal requirement to deal with the individual on their team. TKO had the discretion to let this go. There is a good argument that they should have done so.

First off this was a lab at my college. I keep having to remind people. Next, what legal requirements do you think you're talking about? Lastly, who told you that "if no one takes offense the conduct is fine?" What school of ethics did you fail out of?

What argument is there that I should let this go?

T
K
O

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

You know Hawkeye - after I said what I said - I realized that it all depends on the personalities involved - which we have no way of knowing -but Diest does. And it's very likely that he did the best thing by not making an issue of it at the time, because it would have distracted from the work, first of all, and maybe could have blown up into some defensive sort of argument with people taking sides, etc.

The team leader could have had a meeting with the guy at which Diest was present to say what he heard....who knows...maybe he did.

I said what I said, because my work situation was different - I was friends with most of the teachers I worked with but believe me - sometimes some of my friends said stuff I couldn't believe and I'd be like...'what?! Did you even hear yourself just now...' and we could discuss it.

But I can definitely see how another situation could be entirely different from that depending on the group and personality dynamics and I think he handled it in probably the most mature and appropriate way for a team leader to have handled it.

0 Replies

@Diest TKO,

Quote:

The person who got in trouble was NOT being honest. Honesty had nothing to do with what he said. Saying something is to be "africa-engineered" has nothing to do with honesty. There is no honesty in it, only unnecessary racial defamation to describe a means which has numerous other expression available that don't defamate a group

I was kinda OK with this PC language control when the newspapers started doing it, until the lists of banned words got huge and the process become obscene. It however will not do for small group operation. People need to be allowed to convey themselves as best they can, to the fullest extent possible, and your desire to ban words gets in the way of this good work. The person who was using the term that you did not like was revealing himself in ways that go beyond the particular conversation at hand, it was an honesty about himself, and you worked to drive that part of himself underground. Beware when you do that, because there after you don't know those whom you are with as well as you used to, and their resentment towards your and your kinds coercive modifications of their behaviour may well erupt into violence dawn the road. You will at that point be partly responsible for this violence, as you help create the conditions for its fermentation.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

What do you think you're talking about?

I didn't ban any words. The other team leader, nor I would have the authority to do such a thing.

Are you saying that this team member was doing their best by using this phrase and that using other words would have got in the way of doing good work? This doesn't make any sense. Alternatively, it made my team feel uncomfortable in our shared workspace. What about our productivity? Your argument is vacant.

All your BS about repressed thoughts and violence are just non-sense. If these people are to commit such acts, none of the blame will fall on my shoulders because I once told their team lead that that they said something unprofessional. Zero.

T
K
O

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

What an idiotic post; to say that to denounce racism is to invite violence, and to take responsibility for it.

I say: bring it, bigot, if you think you have the stones. If those who espouse hateful things think violence is the answer, then c'mon. You're obviously being self-referential here; what's holding you up?

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawk

Quote:

If no one takes offense then the conduct is fine.

I have to disagree hawkeye, and this is why.

Let's say for the sake of argument that your wife is a dispatcher at a small construction supply house and she works with 6 guys. Well, one day one of the 3 guys working in the office makes a pass at her and one of the three guys working in the yard who respects and likes your wife hears about it and files a report with the office manager complaining of sexual harassment of your wife....well the 3 guys in the office are cool with the pass made on your wife...they don't see any harm done...but that's not the point.
The point is, that inappropriate behaviour, sexual harassment or racial slurs or epithets are not tolerated these days, whether someone is in agreement or not.
And before you say that my scenario is different, let me point out that sexual harassment and racial slurs are equally demeaning and demoralizing to a work place.

1 Reply

A quick story about racism.

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