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Best Presidential Candidate for the job ??

 
 
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 08:27 pm
I vote for H20Man.. he's rational, friendly, efficient, and doesn't cheat on his wife.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 08:27 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I have seen number ranging from 100,000 to 200,000 and including pockets of militant Islam (i.e. Islamofacists)


Now if only Foxfyre could catch up with these lessons from Asherman and Mysteryman...

nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I dont think waterman realizes that Fascism and Muslim fundamentalism cannot coexist.
They are two different philosophies, with to many differences.


Asherman wrote:
H2O,

"Islamofascist" is a term of art, and it makes no sense in a world where the term "fascist" has a very clear and specific meaning. So far as I can tell none of the Islamic States meet the academic definition of "fascism". What is promoted by the Radical Islamic Movement is despotic Theocracy.

This is a tempest in a teacup. Setanta IS pedantic, but he's also right. That can be frustrating at times, but right is right. I suggest that you adopt terms that are less vulnerable.


Very nice to hear the voice of sanity most calmly expressed by H2O's fellow conservatives. Thank you guys.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:48 am
hanno wrote:
First off, an unqualified 'all politicians are liars' is a turd-in-the-punchbowl fallacy (and damn well you know it).


I know nothing of the kind--and i'm getting fed up with your arrogant "and you damn[ed] well know it" horseshit. All politicians "press the flesh" of people with whom they would never associate in their private lives. All politicians turn out for staged campaign adds which show them smiling and nodding with policeman, firefights, judges and little kiddies--and the scenes are staged. Lying and providing phony photo opportunities is part and parcel of modern campaigning. All politicians are liars, whether you are willing to admit it or not.

Quote:
A card-carrying Libertarian such as myself could play that and have it work, since we prefer 'statesmen' but I just don't feel the need with McCain in the ring. Allow me to qualify it a bit - politicians tend to be liars, but McCain, to the exclusion of the competition, has shown that he can buy the ticket, take the ride, that he's a man of substance and principle above and beyone the game of politics. No qualifications? He's the senator-ing-est one of 'em. What do you consider to be a qualification.


Actually, what i consider qualification is executive experience. History shows that the voters tend to think the same way--Governors have been elected more often than Senators. I fully acknowledge that in McBush, Obama and Clinton you have three candidates who lack executive experience. This sh*t about "a man of principle and substance above and beyond the game of politics" would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. Look up the "Keating Five" sometime, and educate yourself about McBush's principles. McBush was quoted in the Arizona Republic, saying: "The appearance of it was wrong. It's a wrong appearance when a group of senators appear in a meeting with a group of regulators, because it conveys the impression of undue and improper influence. And it was the wrong thing to do." McCain was rebuked by the Senate Ethics committee.

Quote:
Sure I need to tell people what they know - it's the writing on he walls, American graffiti. People don't want to look because they don't understand the parameters of themselves - prefer an interpretation of reality where they're going to grab the tiller on this one.


The only operational delusion here is you claiming to tell people what they "know" when they "know" nothing of the kind.

McCain said (with regard to the beginning of ground operations in the first Gulf War): " . . . the time of the first Gulf War, only 15 percent of the American people thought we ought to go to Kuwait and get rid of Saddam Hussein there." The Gallup organization had already produced a poll in which 79% of respondents supported Pappy Bush's decision to go to war over Kuwait. McCain has also been a persistent critic of this administration's handling of the war in Iraq. But he was willing to put on the ****-eating smile and publicly pronounce his support for the Shrub when it looked like losing the support of the apparatus of the Republican Party.

All politicians are liars, and McBush is no different.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 09:13 am
This poll is very easy.

Just choose the candidate that you feel is best equipped to fight Islamic fascist and Islamic terrorism.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 09:18 am
Given that there is no such thing as Islamic fascism, there is no reasonable choice to make.

Anybody got a pack of cards? We could make this thread interesting. Here, i'll deal . . . five card draw, no wild cards, jacks or better . . .
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 09:33 am
Setanta wrote:
Given that there is no such thing as Islamic fascism...


That statement proves that you are clearly clueless and that your comments should never be taken seriously.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 09:42 am
H2O_MAN wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Given that there is no such thing as Islamic fascism...


That statement proves that you are clearly clueless and that your comments should never be taken seriously.


The overwhelmng majority of the members here right and left agree with setanta on this issue i.e. islamic fascism does not exist (at least as a threat to US securiity, there may be a handful of Muslims somewhere who are fascists, of course) So the cluelessness applies to you and I suspect no one takes you seriously anyway.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 09:49 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
H2O_MAN wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Given that there is no such thing as Islamic fascism...


That statement proves that you are clearly clueless and that your comments should never be taken seriously.


The overwhelmng majority of the members here right and left agree


You are on the same path, just one step behind Setanta .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 09:54 am
I have already pointed this out, and Habibi has reiterated it--that two respected members of the conservative "community" at this site agree that there is no such thing as "islamofascism." Here is Habibi's post in which he once again calls attention to this fact:

nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I dont think waterman realizes that Fascism and Muslim fundamentalism cannot coexist.
They are two different philosophies, with to many differences.


Asherman wrote:
H2O,

"Islamofascist" is a term of art, and it makes no sense in a world where the term "fascist" has a very clear and specific meaning. So far as I can tell none of the Islamic States meet the academic definition of "fascism". What is promoted by the Radical Islamic Movement is despotic Theocracy.

This is a tempest in a teacup. Setanta IS pedantic, but he's also right. That can be frustrating at times, but right is right. I suggest that you adopt terms that are less vulnerable.


Very nice to hear the voice of sanity most calmly expressed by H2O's fellow conservatives. Thank you guys.


One can squeal and whine to one's heart's content--it won't change the fact that people on the right and on the left at this site deny that there is any such thing as islamofascism. The very inability of H20man to provide a plausible definition of islamofascism, and demonstrate that it exists anywhere in the world provides further evidence that this claim is simple paranoia.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:22 am
Just a bit of clarification. Terms connecting the words "Islamic" and "Fascist" are inaccurate descriptions of a very real and dangerous actuality. Technically the terms just don't go together. One describes a theology, and the other a political theory that existed primarily in Germany and Italy prior to WWII. There are even some similarities. Radical Islam and Fascism both are extremely authoritarian. Both promise to create a Utopian society, by the suppression of opposing views. Both are typified by their missionary zeal and aggression. The Waterman is, I think, expecting that most people will recognize that he is referring to what is better termed the "Radical Islamic Movement". His terminology wouldn't be acceptable if this were a graduate class in Political Science, but then I doubt many here are themselves that precise in things they say. Give the lad a break, we all know who the Waterman is talking about. "That depends on what the meaning of is, is".

Not all Muslims are Radicals, and even of those that are I doubt that many believe that Terrorism is an acceptable way to convert the world to Islam. The center of the Islamic world is Southern Asia, specifically that area we refer to as the Middle East (another reasonably sloppy term). Mecca and Medina are under the special protection of the Saudi government, and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is an especially "holy" to the Islamic world. The Arab World tends to be Suni, and the Persian World tends toward the Shi'a versions of Islam. Both regard the West as decadent infidels and that to die while fighting for Islam is a ticket to heaven. The religious schools of Saudi Arabia are a hot bed of Radical Islam and Islamic Law. Saudi Arabia's government supports those schools while trying to maximize the profits from their oil reserves. They are vulnerable to extremists, like Ossama, but are constrained in just how far they can control the radicals within their borders. Iran, the Shi'a "center of gravity" is just as radical. The Taliban of Afghanistan and northern Pakistan are even more insistent upon a despotic State Theocracy. Between the two centers of the Radical Islamic Movement, there is Iraq. Both Suni and Shi'a would love to install there a Theocracy favoring their own sect.

To best combat Radical Islamic Terrorism it is essential that neither sect should completely dominate Iraq. Only a secular Iraqi government truly advances the effort of limiting the reach and power of Radical Islamic Movement that endangers the rest of the world through its sponsorship of international terrorism. Of all the States in the region, the hope of a stable secular government is probably best in Iraq. It is doable, but achieving the goal of a stable secular government able to stand against the contending Radical forces is not going to be easy.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:42 am
Setanta wrote:
I have already pointed this out,


I have pointed out that you are wrong - accept this fact and move on.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:43 am
Asherman wrote:
Give the lad a break, we all know who the Waterman is talking about. "That depends on what the meaning of is, is".


Thank you Cool

The threat is real and I want you to choose candidate that you feel is best equipped to fight the threat.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:20 am
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I have seen number ranging from 100,000 to 200,000 and including pockets of militant Islam (i.e. Islamofacists)


Now if only Foxfyre could catch up with these lessons from Asherman and Mysteryman...

nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I dont think waterman realizes that Fascism and Muslim fundamentalism cannot coexist.
They are two different philosophies, with to many differences.


Asherman wrote:
H2O,

"Islamofascist" is a term of art, and it makes no sense in a world where the term "fascist" has a very clear and specific meaning. So far as I can tell none of the Islamic States meet the academic definition of "fascism". What is promoted by the Radical Islamic Movement is despotic Theocracy.

This is a tempest in a teacup. Setanta IS pedantic, but he's also right. That can be frustrating at times, but right is right. I suggest that you adopt terms that are less vulnerable.


Very nice to hear the voice of sanity most calmly expressed by H2O's fellow conservatives. Thank you guys.


How did I get into this? I only explained the term as it is used in modern vernacular and it IS used in modern vernacular by both the left and the right. Of course technically Facism in its pure definition is different from militant Islam and there I agree with MM and Asherman 100%. Probably it would be better to dump the term 'Islamofacist' but the fact is, it is here and it will probably stay and it includes its own definition and we will probably all continue to hear it from time to time. It is even included the New American Oxford Dictionary which leads me to assume that it will be one of the terms adopted by Webster in the near future.

As much as it pains me to use Wikipedia as a source, they do explain it rather well here:

Islamofascism
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:42 am
foxfyre quoting Wikipedia
Quote:
Islamofascism is a controversial[1] neologism
A neologism is essentially a made-up word, or is an old word used in an entirely new way. It could logically be self cancelling (like an oxymoron) or may be illogical but , hey, somebody wants to use it and its gotten legs. Its a dumass word , sort of like NASCAR Research.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:46 am
farmerman wrote:
foxfyre quoting Wikipedia
Quote:
Islamofascism is a controversial[1] neologism
A neologism is essentially a made-up word, or is an old word used in an entirely new way. It could logically be self cancelling (like an oxymoron) or may be illogical but , hey, somebody wants to use it and its gotten legs. Its a dumass word , sort of like NASCAR Research.


That very well may be so. But it is already in at least one dictionary and I will be surprised if it does not also wind up in others. Almost all words were 'made up' words at one time and were either declared to be an official term or became so through usage.

Example:
Oxford Word Of The Year: Locavore (first used 2 years ago)
http://blog.oup.com/2007/11/locavore/
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 12:10 pm
Sort of like "ARmy Intelligence"


I think Asherman had made a really cogent argument about the illogical roots or the compound word. I have no power to stop its usage, I just like to see how a thread can take a total turn and become a discussion about whether the origin of a neologism is logical or not .

Im gonna say, its not.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 12:18 pm
Perhaps you could google it?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 12:19 pm
Logic and facts are different things FM. I did not and have not argued for the logic of the term. Only that I understand what is meant when it is used. Is there a better term that could be used in place of 'islamofacist'? Of course. Do I think 'islamofacist' is likely to go away? No. But I didn't make up the word either.

I think 'driveway' is a silly word for the concrete strip leading to my garage and 'parkway' would actually describe what that strip is mostly used for. But 'parkway' is used to describe a city street that people actually drive on.

Oh well, you've seen that email of the incongruous words we adopt for this and that - there are a gazillion of them. I suspect that "islamofacist' will become a recognized term that won't be any more specifically descriptive than is "Democrat" or "Republican" but everybody will know what is meant when the term is used.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 12:25 pm
Certainly muslim terrorists are dangerous. So are the Basque separatists, so is FARC, so is the Sendero Luminoso, so are the PIRA die-hards, so are the Serbian "Greater Serbia" nationalists. What the problem with "islamofascist" and an obsessive focus on "islamic terrorism" is that it distracts in two ways. It distracts from other terrorist threats such as FARC, such as the Sendero Luminoso, such as the Serb nationalists; and it is designed for this narrow focus, and to imply that muslims are terrorists because murderous intolerance is central to Islam.

I don't have a problem with opposing terrorism. I have a serious problem with those who are so obsessed with the thought of muslim terrorists that they focus on it to the exclusion of any other threats, and so obsessed with their christian bigot hatred that they are willing to characterize all muslims as terrorists by defintion.

Given his increasingly partisan focus, i'm not surprised to see Asherman call for giving H20man a break. I expect such drivel from the likes of H20 or Fox--it's disgusting to see it in Asherman.

The job of president is not all about the illusory "war on terror;" terrorism is not all about muslims.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Apr, 2008 12:34 pm
David Ignatius, writing for the Washington Post, writes a short but I think accurately introspective opinion that supports both Asherman's view of it and the Wikipedia definition:

Are We Fighting 'Islamic Fascists'?
By David Ignatius
Friday, August 18, 2006; Page A21

"This nation is at war with Islamic fascists who will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom," President Bush said last week after Britain announced it had foiled a plot to blow up airliners over the Atlantic. I have been pondering since then his description of the enemy. What are "Islamic fascists," and does this phrase make sense in describing America's adversaries?

The judicious columnist's answer is, of course, yes and no. A look at the history of fascism produces some startling parallels to the revolutionary movements that have swept Iran and other Muslim countries over the past several decades. But the phrase is misleading, both in its broad reference to Islam and in its evocation of another century and another war.

One of the old college textbooks gathering dust in my basement is Ernst Nolte's "Three Faces of Fascism," a classic study of the social forces that created fascist movements in France, Italy and Germany during the 1920s and '30s. It's a dense book, but it concludes with one unforgettable insight. Fascism, Nolte said, is "resistance to transcendence." By that, he meant that fascism was a rebellion against the liberating but destabilizing transformations of modern society.

In the countries where it took root, fascism began as a middle-class assault on the liberal elites who were creating that era's version of globalization. Jews were a special target, but they were also symbols of a larger internationalist movement. In one passage, Nolte described the focus of fascist protest in language that might apply to today's globalized world: "The leading class performs its task of establishing the technical and economic unity of the world, and emancipating all men for participation in this undertaking, in ever new political and intellectual compromises with the hitherto ruling powers: It is the society of synthesis."

The fascist revolt against "transcendence" was driven in part by rage against the perceived corruption of the European elites, who were thought to have grown rich during the booming, inflationary years of the 1920s at the expense of the hardworking middle class. The final malign motivation in Germany was shame and indignation over the nation's defeat in World War I. Fascism gave ordinary people an explanation of what had gone wrong in their lives -- and someone to blame.

I do see many of these same factors in the growing popularity of radical Islam in the Middle East. The baseline for this movement remains the Iranian revolution of 1979, which exploded in the region's most modern and, if you will, "transcendent" state. The shah's Iran was rushing to embrace the global economy. Its elite was liberal, secular, international -- and also wretchedly corrupt. Ordinary Muslims felt, with some justice, that they were being left out of the spoils of this new Iran -- that their hard work was being used to buy mansions on the Cote d'Azur. That radical populism lives on in President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, dressed in his ostentatiously humble golf jacket.

I remember how that revolutionary indignation swept the Middle East in the early 1980s, when I first began covering the region. The most popular preacher in Cairo in 1981 was Sheik Kishk, who would ridicule the corruption and Western ways of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and his family. That same year, Sadat was murdered by Muslim terrorists.

Today's Muslim radicals, like the Nazis in Germany, gain support by promising dignity for a people who feel shamed by defeat in war. That's the appeal of Hezbollah's leader, Hasan Nasrallah: The Arabs feel they have suffered 40 years of military humiliation from Israel. Nasrallah offers the tonic of defiance and, for the moment at least, a sort of victory. That makes him a hero, even though he brought on the ruination of Lebanon.

Back to President Bush and his "Islamic fascists." In many ways, this phrase does capture the rage that fuels America's enemies. What is most pernicious about the movement is that, as with European fascism, it has made Jews the symbol for larger forces that confound angry Muslims. This is perverse: The corrupt elites who obstruct Iranians, Egyptians, Syrians and Saudis today are their own rulers and their legions of fixers and bagmen, not Israeli Jews.

Yet I balk at the term. The notion that we are fighting "Islamic fascists" blurs the conflict, widening the enemy to many if not all Muslims. It's as if we were to call Hitler and Mussolini "Christian fascists," implying that it is their religion, not resistance to transcendence, that is the root cause of the problem. The revolution that began in Iran in 1979 must be contained so that it doesn't destabilize the region more than it already has. But it will only be broken from within, by people who are at last ready to transcend.

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