Obama Embraces a Bigot and a Fanatic, the Rev. Wright

From another thread:

okie wrote:

Lets just say it is an issue of trust. Anyone that esteems folks like Pastor Wright who apparently thinks America deserved 911, so does Obama think so too?

Do you think McCain or GW Bush think America deserved 911? Because Falwell thinks we did.

Quote:

Some of the black liberation theologians espouse reparations for descendants of slavery, so has Obama addressed that question? We don't really know, do we? Does Obama suspect the U.S. government has introduced drugs into the black community, or does Obama think the government invented HIV as a tool to commit genocide? And does Obama think the rich should be forfeiting their wealth and their property, because after all they stole it or have been using it to abuse people of color for a long long time? Does Obama think the country needs to be changed to the point of scrapping the constitution, after all, if we were founded on racist principles, why would you want to keep something around that is racist?

Obama taught Constitutional Law and has never written anything that would suggest scrapping it. In fact, in his speech he specifically says that the Constitution held the promise to resolve slavery and racism, not that it espoused racist principles.

Quote:

I can think of lots more questions that come up, cyclops, but I honestly don't know the answers to these questions. I'm sure Obama's speech writers can come up with something very good for him to recite, but does that tell us what he really thinks? I don't know, and I have serious doubts.

Do you really honestly not know the answers to these questions? Really? This is absurd. How about if I came out with "Does McCain believe in UFO's? I honestly don't know." It's true, after all. I have no idea whether McCain believes in UFOs. But since he has never indicated that he does, as Obama has never indicated that he believes any of the nonsense you ask about, I have no reason to even think that he would. You are allowing yourself to go down some fantasyland rabbit hole.

And Obama writes many of his own speeches, including his best ever last week.

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Free Duck, we have a dichotomy going on here with Obama, what he speaks, which if you analyze closely has some interesting expressions, then his other life with this church that espouses something wholly different. And when you begin to analyze his "wonderful" speeches, you begin to see the expressions in vague terms that resemble what this supposed church teaches, which is more a political organization than a church when you begin to examine the beliefs of the church. This is at least a man that is living a couple of different lives by design, or perhaps just a very confused man. As I have said many times before, I actually like the guy, but when we begin to examine his politics, it is more than troubling. This is not a casual relationship, and as smart as Obama is, he has most assuredly studied and is acutely aware of the black liberation theology, and if he had problems with this, he would have severed ties with it long ago. I find it very difficult to believe this man could innocently go along with this stuff this long without agreeing with most of it.

The other thing that is troubling is that he claims to be a Christian, fine, however reading about this stuff indicates this is much more about politics than religion. It is about the past and about hatreds and getting even. The other little aspect of this in my reading, it indicated as part of this theology the intersection of Christianity, black power, and Muslims, in that the Jews put Jesus on the cross, and more recently whites put blacks on the cross, thus the hatred for Jews and the white western world is a common denominator between the Muslims and BLT. I am not making this up, it is too bizarre to make up.

By the way, I am not one to take Falwell seriously, he is a religion hustler, in it to make money. Politicians humor the man to a point, but I do not know of any Republicans that worship in his church. What we are talking about here between Obama and his church is a much closer relationship. It is the dichotomy here that we see with Obama that makes me very unsure of what he really thinks and believes. With McCain, he is political, sure, but no dichotomy like this.

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okie wrote:

Free Duck, we have a dichotomy going on here with Obama, what he speaks, which if you analyze closely has some interesting expressions, then his other life with this church that espouses something wholly different. And when you begin to analyze his "wonderful" speeches, you begin to see the expressions in vague terms that resemble what this supposed church teaches, which is more a political organization than a church when you begin to examine the beliefs of the church. This is at least a man that is living a couple of different lives by design, or perhaps just a very confused man. As I have said many times before, I actually like the guy, but when we begin to examine his politics, it is more than troubling.

Please do share your painstaking analysis. I have read much of what he's written and looked at his actions as well and have no reason to be disturbed. What are you afraid will happen if he becomes president? What sorts of ideas do you suppose he espouses that are so dangerous? How thoroughly have you examined the "beliefs of the church"? What are these different lives that he's supposedly living?

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FreeDuck wrote:

Please do share your painstaking analysis. I have read much of what he's written and looked at his actions as well and have no reason to be disturbed. What are you afraid will happen if he becomes president? What sorts of ideas do you suppose he espouses that are so dangerous? How thoroughly have you examined the "beliefs of the church"? What are these different lives that he's supposedly living?

I would suggest you do some reading on BLT, (Black Liberation Theology) on which his church bases much of its teaching, Free Duck.

If he becomes president, I do not believe his interests and the best interests of America match. It will likely be incremental, as it always is. I do not believe he has the right priorities.

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I suggest you do more than regurgitate Fox News/Republican smear tactic talking pints.

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No, I did not. Instead I did a little searching the web in regard to the above subject. Try it, Roxxi. Type in Black Liberation Theology, and follow the trail of information.

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It's just a talking point being regurgitated by the right-wing bigots.

So I googled Black Liberation Theology and this is what popped up:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256078,00.html

Could this be any easier?

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okie wrote:

No, I did not. Instead I did a little searching the web in regard to the above subject. Try it, Roxxi. Type in Black Liberation Theology, and follow the trail of information.

Have you ever read a book okie? I mean one that did not have pictures or such words as POW! BAM! ? Yes you now present as a religious scholar could you please explain your take on Vatican II and how it effected north american catholicism? Since 40% of americans are catholic/10% are Methodist and 5% southern baptists should the pope endorse and be vetted in order to offer support to right to life candidates?

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free duck said:

Do you think McCain or GW Bush think America deserved 911? Because Falwell thinks we did.

He would be the only one who knows for sure... and that's only if there is an afterlife... :wink:

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okie wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:

Please do share your painstaking analysis. I have read much of what he's written and looked at his actions as well and have no reason to be disturbed. What are you afraid will happen if he becomes president? What sorts of ideas do you suppose he espouses that are so dangerous? How thoroughly have you examined the "beliefs of the church"? What are these different lives that he's supposedly living?

I would suggest you do some reading on BLT, (Black Liberation Theology) on which his church bases much of its teaching, Free Duck.

Where did you hear of this BLT (Mmmm, getting hungry.) and how is it connected to Obama. You claim that careful analysis of Obama's words and actions will reveal something, so please to share that analysis instead of asking me to do my own.

Quote:

If he becomes president, I do not believe his interests and the best interests of America match. It will likely be incremental, as it always is. I do not believe he has the right priorities.

How so? Which of his interests do you believe do not match with American interests? What exactly do you think he is going to do "incremental[ly]"? This is starting to sound kind of paranoid.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

free duck said:

Do you think McCain or GW Bush think America deserved 911? Because Falwell thinks we did.

He would be the only one who knows for sure... and that's only if there is an afterlife... :wink:

I always forget whether it's him or Robertson that is dead.

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FreeDuck wrote:

okie wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:

Please do share your painstaking analysis. I have read much of what he's written and looked at his actions as well and have no reason to be disturbed. What are you afraid will happen if he becomes president? What sorts of ideas do you suppose he espouses that are so dangerous? How thoroughly have you examined the "beliefs of the church"? What are these different lives that he's supposedly living?

I would suggest you do some reading on BLT, (Black Liberation Theology) on which his church bases much of its teaching, Free Duck.

Where did you hear of this BLT (Mmmm, getting hungry.) and how is it connected to Obama. You claim that careful analysis of Obama's words and actions will reveal something, so please to share that analysis instead of asking me to do my own.

Where have you been? Simply start reading up on Wright, his church, and Obama. The information is everywhere for anyone that is curious. You can read the following, but if you don't want to, do your own searches.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=c19d4d91-618e-40d3-a5d9-c07d7a87a5ba

Quote:

Quote:
If he becomes president, I do not believe his interests and the best interests of America match. It will likely be incremental, as it always is. I do not believe he has the right priorities.

How so? Which of his interests do you believe do not match with American interests? What exactly do you think he is going to do "incremental[ly]"? This is starting to sound kind of paranoid.

It is only paranoia if you are not informed. And it may seem like paranoia if you listen to Obama instead of judging him on what he does. Obama has been fully aware of the politics of his beliefs for a long long time, and he and his pastor already agreed that for campaign purposes he may need to distance himself from him at some point, but this is only for appearances purposes. He must subscribe into much of the beliefs or he would disassociate himself. He has not done that. The speech was nice according to some, but it did nothing really except ride the fence. The other possibility is he only aligned with Wright for votes, but that is no better, and really how do you know?

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okie wrote:

The speech was nice according to some, but it did nothing really except ride the fence. The other possibility is he only aligned with Wright for votes, but that is no better, and really how do you know?

According to some it was the best political speech in a generation. I think that you take Obama at his word that wright and him share a spiritual connection, it is not about politics.

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FreeDuck wrote:

From another thread:

Following FD's example, I will also post my answer to Okie's post on the Polls etc thread here:

--

okie wrote:

I don't know, cyclops. Lets just say it is an issue of trust. Anyone that esteems folks like Pastor Wright who apparently thinks America deserved 911, so does Obama think so too? [..] We don't really know, do we?

Ehm, yes you do. How many times does he need to say that he completely disagrees with what Wright said to satisfy you?

I'm beginning to think that this is just a question of, ahah, we found something bad we can associate him with, and it doesnt matter how often he repudiates said comments, we can just keep on "asking questions", such as: how do we know for sure he doesnt hate his country, etc? Well, how about it would be counter to every single thing he's written and said throughout his political life?

okie wrote:

Does Obama suspect the U.S. government has introduced drugs into the black community, or does Obama think the government invented HIV as a tool to commit genocide?

What about checking? Here, from last Friday's news:

[Obama] said he had been present during Wright's condemnations of U.S. foreign and domestic policies. But he said he was unaware that Wright had called HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, a U.S. government plot to wipe out African Americans -- a charge Obama called "out of line and off the wall."Of course, this should come as little surprise since anyone who types in "Obama" and "AIDS" into Google will find out that a) Obama has held a number of combative speeches about the need to fight AIDS; b) has a specific policy program on how to fight AIDS, and perhaps most important of all, c) has again and again stressed the need for people to test themselves, and has twice taken a public AIDS test himself to encourage other people to do it and take away whatever stigma there is to it.

But no, instead of typing <Obama aids> into Google it's easier to just play guilt by association and act like hey, you know, since his pastor has said something outrageous about AIDS, who knows whether Obama might believe it or not?

okie wrote:

I can think of lots more questions that come up, cyclops, but I honestly don't know the answers to these questions. I'm sure Obama's speech writers can come up with something very good for him to recite, but does that tell us what he really thinks?

The only reason to not know would be if you didnt actually care to find out the reassuring question, because it would be so much more convenient to just leave these questions hanging in the air, so the Democrat in the race for '08 can forever be insinuated to be unpatriotic, extremist etc. Actually looking into what the man has said, written and done throughout his political life would quickly dispel any of these questions, so that would just be inconvenient.

And he wrote that race speech himself, only even showing it to his closest advisers before going on-air with it.

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okie wrote:

Free Duck, we have a dichotomy going on here with Obama, what he speaks, which if you analyze closely has some interesting expressions, [..] when you begin to analyze his "wonderful" speeches, you begin to see the expressions in vague terms that resemble what this supposed church teaches, [..] when we begin to examine his politics, it is more than troubling.

Hi Okie,

FreeDuck asked you to expound on this. What "interesting expressions" in Obama's words are you referring to? What have you "analyzed" in his speeches that is dubious? What has your "examination" of his politics shown you that is "more than troubling"?

You have given a reference to Black Liberation Theology and a "Where have you been", but we already know about what Wright has said that offended you (and most of us). We already know about Wright's theology. That wasnt the question.

The question was, what has your analysis and examination of Obama's speeches and words yielded? What are those "interesting expressions" and "more than troubling" words you have found? Not in Wright's sermons, but in Obama's speeches etc.? Cause that's what you said.

Enough with insinuations and innuendo. Tell us already.

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nimh, sure Obama disavows what Wright says, but he still goes to church there. Now if this was a matter of statements by Wright that are out of left field, not supported by the basic doctrines of the church, then I agree with you that disavowing wild comments out of character is appropriate and the problem is solved. However, the comments he disavows are entrenched as part of the entire philosophy of Wright and the church. Kind of like belonging to the KKK, you can disavow statements by KKK members time after time, but at some point you need to disassociate yourself from the organization. Thats the way I see it. This church is based on something that is racial and political from the ground up, it is not a matter of offhand comments made here and there.

As far as words, there are many but start with "change," which means nothing without context, but has been used by Jeremiah Wright as part of the BLT, so there is the possible context. The word is a favorite of Marxists, and inasmuch as Black Liberation Theology is tied to Marxism, it does raise my curiosity. You as well as the flaming libs here will dismiss all of this of course, but it definitely needs to be looked into further. Wright seems to have had an affection for folks like Castro and other communist dictator types. Connect the dots.

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Obama church published
Hamas terror manifesto
Compares charter calling for murder
of Jews to Declaration of Independence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 20, 2008
12:45 pm Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily

JERUSALEM - Sen. Barack Obama's Chicago church reprinted a manifesto by Hamas that defended terrorism as legitimate resistance, refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist and compared the terror group's official charter - which calls for the murder of Jews - to America's Declaration of Independence.

The Hamas piece was published on the "Pastor's Page" of the Trinity United Church of Christ newsletter reserved for Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., whose anti-American, anti-Israel remarks landed Obama in hot water, prompting the presidential candidate to deliver a major race speech earlier this week.

Hamas, responsible for scores of shootings, suicide bombings and rocket launchings against civilian population centers, is listed as a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department.

The revelation follows a recent WND article quoting Israeli security officials who expressed "concern" about Robert Malley, an adviser to Obama who has advocated negotiations with Hamas and providing international assistance to the terrorist group.

In his July 22, 2007, church newsletter, Wright reprinted an article by Mousa Abu Marzook, identified in the publication as a "deputy of the political bureau of Hamas." A photo image of the piece was captured and posted today by the business blog BizzyBlog, which first brought attention to it. The Hamas article was first published by the Los Angeles Times, garnering the newspaper much criticism.

(Story continues below)

According to senior Israeli security officials, Marzook, who resides in Syria alongside Hamas chieftain Khaled Meshaal, is considered the "brains" behind Hamas, designing much of the terror group's policies and ideology. Israel possesses what it says is a large volume of specific evidence that Marzook has been directly involved in calling for or planning scores of Hamas terrorist offensives, including deadly suicide bombings. He was also accused of attempting to set up a Hamas network in the U.S.

Marzook's original piece was titled, "Hamas' stand" but was re-titled "A Fresh View of the Palestinian Struggle" by Obama's church newsletter. The newsletter also referred to Hamas as the "Islamic Resistance Movement," and added in its introduction that Marzook was addressing Hamas' goals for "all of Palestine."

In the manifesto, Marzook refers to Hamas' "resistance" - the group's perpetuation of anti-Israel terrorism targeting civilians - as "legal resistance," which, he argues, is "explicitly supported by the Fourth Geneva Convention."

The Convention, which refers to the rights of people living under occupation, does not support suicide bombings or rocket attacks against civilian population centers, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America noted.

Marzook refers to Hamas' official charter as "an essentially revolutionary document" and compares the violent creed to the Declaration of Independence, which, Marzook states, "simply did not countenance any such status for the 700,000 African slaves at that time."

Hamas' charter calls for the murder of Jews. Among its platforms is a statement that the "[resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!'"

In his piece, Marzook says Hamas only targets Israel and denies that Hamas' war is meant to be waged against the U.S., even though Hamas officials have threatened America, and Hamas' charter calls for Muslims to "pursue the cause of the Movement (Hamas), all over the globe."

Trinity Church did not respond to a phone message requesting comment.

Obama's campaign also did not reply to phone and e-mail requests today for comment.

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okie wrote:

He must subscribe into much of the beliefs or he would disassociate himself. He has not done that. The speech was nice according to some, but it did nothing really except ride the fence.

Jeebus, Okie. What about these words, of Obama's, from that very speech, is ambiguous?

[b]"we've heard my former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend white and black alike.[/b] I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely [..]. [b]But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply a religious leader's effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America[/b]; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam. As such, [b]Reverend Wright's comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together"[/b]
Yes, he also pointed out that there was more to the man than just those few outrageous quotes; and that there was a heck of a lot more to the church he attended than just Rev. Wright. But how can you read the above words, read those last two paras, and then conclude that Obama has not "disassociated himself" from "much of the beliefs" of Rev. Wright? What kind of cognitive dissonance does that require?

And that was just in Obama's speech. Obama further denounced the views of Wright both before and after his speech. Including some of the specific views that you have cited on this site - the one on AIDS, for example, as I showed above.

Here's more samples. Does Obama 'hate America like Rev. Wright does'? (That's a paraphrasing of about two dozen posts I've seen here.) Does he share Wright's view of America? This is from an interview he did on CNN:

Quote:

"I think one of the things that's most frustrating to me, listening to some of the comments of Reverend Wright, is, ironically, the book that I titled "The Audacity of Hope," drawing from one of his sermons, ends with my statement about my love of this country.

And, you know, that is who I am and what I believe, that this country is everything to me. But this country also has pain and anger and frustration. And, you know, I think that what you heard from Reverend Wright in these statements is part of that American history that we have to get beyond, and that, you know, it's very important for me to send a clear signal that that is not the essence of what America is."

Pretty clear-cut there. He understands what history Wright is coming from, but no, he does not agree; in fact, it's very important for him to make clear that -- this image Wright sketches? -- that is not the essence of what America is.

Does Obama identify with Wright's perspective? No, he says: that's the views of a different, past generation. His own views and experiences are very different:

Quote:

"part of what I think I see is Reverend Wright as somebody who grew up in the '60s, had very different life experiences than I had, has continued to harbor a lot of anger and frustration about discrimination that he may have experienced.

And, so, his life experiences have been very different than mine. And part of what is going on within the African-American community is a transition, in which some of the rhetoric and statements and -- and frustrations of the past have given way to opportunities that I have experienced, and -- which is part of the reason why I speak in very different terms."

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Fine, nimh, I realize that Obama supporters are going to turn a blind eye and accept his explanations, but I think the man is playing both sides of the issue when it is simply the right thing to do to run the other way as fast as possible, and he doesn't do it. Basically, it demonstrates his mode of politics, that of not taking a stand, just equivocating on the issue. Sorry, but that is not the way okie was raised, my parents taught me to look at an issue and if it was haywire, run the other way, take a stand for whats right, and stick to it. We are wasting our time with candidates like Obama, that is my personal opinion, and we could do a whole lot better. I have liked him, but I never knew what made him tick, but all of this is turning into distrust. I am sick of the Clintons and hope he takes her out, thats all, and bring on McCain, maybe we can get him to be a decent president. I just hope he picks a good vp, as we may need him or her.

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To echo Obama " Words matter " Obama sat there and never said a word as Wright spewed his racist poison to his congregation both old and young. His justificaion leaves me cold and this "typical white man" question his sincerity.

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Obama Embraces a Bigot and a Fanatic, the Rev. Wright

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