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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 08:58 pm
Steve -- That was my very thought!

I didn't hear the speech tonight. Anything important happen? Do we invade Iran tomorrow?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:07 pm
Panama ...... the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:18 pm
Bush asked for 87 billion dollars for the Iraq reconstruction and other expenses. It seems congress will approve it.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:21 pm
See BBB's thread on the speech.President's speech
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:56 pm
The speech was kind of a new low. Hegel came on before, and said he thought Bush had to address the nation in terms of the real and actual costs of this war and what it will mean; the plight of the MMDs; the timetable for bringing troops home; what it looks like for our country. Bush did none of this. He simply stood, almost emotionless, and gave the same boilerplate with no specifics. He did mention how well the reconstruction in Iraq is going, how we're beating the nasty terrorists, how those countries out there like Japan, Europe, the Arab nations should realize their responsibilities.
This was the opposite of a great speech. I suspect they're afraid that Bush and 9/11 no longer have the strong impact on the public it did before. Too much has happened. And, thinking about it, this speech gave any candidates precious little to go on. If this was a kick-off campaign speech, Bush better duck.

Did anyone catch the Bush adulation show on Showtime tonight? I don't get Showtime.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:59 pm
Sounds like it was pretty awful offal, Hobit.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 10:08 pm
Lead editorial, tomorrow's NYTimes:


The President's Speech
President Bush urged the American people to stay the course in Iraq last night. We wish he had announced a course correction.

It was impossible to watch Mr. Bush's somber speech without remembering that four months ago, when the president made his "Top Gun" landing on an aircraft carrier and declared an end to "major combat operations," the White House was worried about giving the world the impression that Americans were gloating.

Now, Washington has been compelled to recognize that it cannot succeed in securing Iraq alone and badly needs much more United Nations help. Yet the administration still resists paying the necessary price of accepting broad U.N. authority over rebuilding Iraq's institutions and economy. Telling members of the U.N. that they have a "responsibility" to step up to the plate may seem a little presumptuous given the way Mr. Bush ignored their earlier concerns at the time of the invasion. The United States needs to negotiate realistically with France, Germany and Russia on expanding the peacekeeping forces and getting financial help with the huge reconstruction costs.

Given the fact that no weapons of mass destruction have been uncovered in Iraq, the president needs to be much more up-front with the American people about why our troops are there. Polls show most Americans still believe that Iraq was behind the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, although there is no evidence connecting Saddam Hussein to the terror plot. That is in part because the president continues to draw a line between Sept. 11 and Iraq. There are still good reasons to maintain America's commitment in Iraq. But Mr. Bush's tendency to refer to everyone from Baath Party loyalists to guerrilla fighters as terrorists seems designed to confuse the public rather than clarify the administration's goals.

While Mr. Bush finally set a price tag on the upcoming cost of the Iraq effort, he still has not done nearly enough to level with the American people. The bulk of the $87 billion the president said he would request from Congress goes to the military and intelligence. The amount that would be left for things like restoring water and electricity seems very low, given recent information on the pathetic state of the country's infrastructure.

Mr. Bush's earlier attempts to evade setting a price tag on the Iraq effort were in part aimed at greasing the skids for the administration's tax cut program. Certainly now it is time to give up on the idea that the tax cuts temporarily approved during the president's tenure can remain in place. But while Mr. Bush is getting more specific about the numbers, he has yet to really tell Americans that they will have to make sacrifices to pay the bill.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 11:25 pm
From The Independent:

Quote:
US woos Europe as costs force Iraq U-turn
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
08 September 2003


President George Bush was last night explaining America's climbdown over Iraq, offering an olive branch to sceptical European leaders in a U-turn that has already seen him approach the UN for help in the reconstruction effort.

In a 15-minute television address to the American people, Mr Bush had the task of explaining how he intended to share the administration's financial and military burden in Iraq. He also needed to clarify why he was now wooing the very European allies he snubbed just a few months ago.

With his approval rating at its lowest since he took office in January 2001, Mr Bush was expected to plead for patience, more time and - most delicately - a lot more money. He made his address early today, British time, from the White House - his first such speech since the war began in March.

As senior members of his administration flagged his remarks in a carefully orchestrated media blitz over the weekend, it became clear that US requests for military contributions from important United Nations members were relatively modest. According to Colin Powell, the Secretary of State, no more than 15,000 troops were needed to complement the 150,000 US soldiers already on the ground alongside 10,500 British troops. Yesterday, about 120 British soldiers left their base in Cyprus for Iraq in the first of what was expected to be a series of new deployments.

General Powell, who consistently argued for a multilateral approach in Iraq, indicated in a television interview that troop numbers were less important than bringing the UN on board and broadening the scope of what until now has been seen as a US-led military occupation. "What we're really interested in ... is to get the international community to come together and participate in the political reconstruction of Iraq," he said.

While negotiations continue on formulating a new UN Security Council resolution that will satisfy aggrieved allies such as France and Germany, Mr Bush was expected to argue for more, not less, US commitment. His administration has recently characterised Iraq as the central battleground in the war on terrorism, while glossing over the fact that if this is the case, the US invasion itself has been largely responsible for making it so.

Condoleezza Rice, the National Security Adviser, said on CNN: "The key here is we must remain resolute. The cost of freedom and the cost of peace cannot be measured ... It is important that we put adequate resources to this task."

Mr Bush was expected to specify in his address how much money he would seek from Congress for the year beginning 1 October. Reports suggested the figure could be anywhere from $60bn (£40bn) to $80bn - enough to extend an occupation already costing about $1bn a week, and provide further funds for reconstruction.

Mr Bush's speech will serve as a direct rebuttal to his critics - including many of the competitors for next year's Democratic presidential nomination - who have called for US troops to be brought home.

But making the case will be complicated by growing dismay over the casualty rate in Iraq and fears that the Middle East could turn into another Vietnam. The number of US soldiers killed since the President declared an end to formal combat operations on 1 May has already exceeded the number who died during the war.

Two missiles were fired at a US transport plane taking off from Baghdad's airport yesterday, at the time that Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defence was leaving Iraq. The missiles missed their target.

The huge cost of maintaining the Iraq operation is a liability for the United States, which is running a record budget deficit. And the economic recovery, which the administration insists is taking place, is failing to stem the tide of mounting unemployment. Polls show that the economy is potentially a huge weakness for Mr Bush, just as it was for his father after the Gulf War 12 years ago.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 11:30 pm
A slightly (?) different conservative British view, from The Telegraph:
Quote:

Bush warns of challenges ahead over Iraq
By Toby Harnden in Washington
(Filed: 08/09/2003)


President George W Bush vowed to continue his fight against global terrorism in an address to the American people early this morning but acknowledged that there were challenges ahead and that more US money would be needed to finish the job in Iraq.

"We will do whatever is necessary, we will spend what is necessary, to achieve this essential victory in the war on terror, to promote freedom, and to make our nation more secure," Mr Bush said.

"Our strategy in Iraq has three objectives - destroying the terrorists . . . enlisting the support of other nations for a free Iraq . . . and helping Iraqis assume responsibility for their own defence and their own future."

Mr Bush repeated his policy change on Iraq, saying: "Members of the United Nations now have an opportunity, and the responsibility, to assume a broader role in assuring that Iraq becomes a free and democratic nation."

He also urged the Iraqi people to step up to the task of governing themselves. "They must rise to the responsibilities of a free people, and secure the blessings of their own liberty," he said.

He urged Americans to be patient during the coming months. "Two years ago, I told the Congress and the country that the war on terror would be a lengthy war, a different kind of war, fought on many fronts in many places," he said.

"Iraq is now the central front. Enemies of freedom are making a desperate stand there - and there they must be defeated. This will take time, and require sacrifice."

Mr Bush recognised that the stakes were high; that the Middle East "will either become a place of progress and peace, or it will be an exporter of violence and terror that takes more lives in America and in other free nations".

He added: "The triumph of democracy and tolerance in Iraq, in Afghanistan and beyond, would be a grave setback for international terrorism."

In an about-turn in policy last week, Mr Bush abandoned his long-standing opposition to a United Nations force and asked Mr Powell to negotiate a new UN resolution aimed at bringing in fresh troops.

The White House hopes that countries such as India, Pakistan and Turkey will contribute forces for the occupation. There are currently about 21,000 non-American troops in Iraq.

American officials said Mr Bush would ask Congress for $65-80 billion (£40-50 billion) to be spent on the Iraqi occupation. Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State, said it was anticipated that up to 15,000 non-American troops would be added to the 140,000-strong force.

"We are not expecting this new resolution to cause a large number of additional troops to be added from the international community," he told NBC television. "I would guess that perhaps there are 10,000 to 15,000 more who might be made available."

The last time Mr Bush spoke to his country was on May 1 when he was standing on the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln under a banner that read: "Mission Accomplished".

That appearance is currently viewed within the White House as a political albatross. It has provided much fodder for the nine Democratic presidential candidate as US casualties are sustained almost daily and disorder continues.

The decision to address the nation was taken before it became clear that Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian premier, was about to resign. That decision, and the Israeli attempt to kill Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the Hamas leader, made Mr Bush's task this morning much harder.

One of the primary Bush administration arguments for the Iraq war was that it would open up new possibilities for peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

Democrats, who just months ago had intended to focus on the economy during their primary campaigns, have instead begun to hammer relentlessly at Mr Bush's Iraq policy.

In private, White House aides say they desperately need the scalp of Saddam Hussein or, better still, Osama bin Laden, to turn the tide of public opinion back towards Mr Bush.

A poll released yesterday indicated for the first time since the September 11 attacks that a majority of Americans had an unfavourable opinion of Mr Bush.

The Zogby International poll found that 45 per cent of respondents rated Mr Bush's job performance as good or excellent, while 54 per cent said it was fair or poor. In a similar poll in August, Mr Bush's favourability rating was 52 per cent.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 04:09 am
I'm still wondering what cockeyed politician came up with "asymmetrical war." Oh, excuse me, "asymmetrical politician." Ah well, both could be oblique oxymorons.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 04:20 am
Perhaps Bush I and II also believe in an "asymmetrical economy?"
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 05:15 am
Lightwizard wrote:
I'm still wondering what cockeyed politician came up with "asymmetrical war." Oh, excuse me, "asymmetrical politician." Ah well, both could be oblique oxymorons.


Bush called the events of September 11, 2001 'act of war' at first (on September 12th), and three days later, defined it as a 'new type of war', i.e. an 'asymmetrical war'.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 06:54 am
Definitely an asymmetrical economy, Wizard. Good point! And now asymmetrical government, which has grown by one million bodies, not counting the government workers who can't be counted because technically the jobs have been "contracted out."
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 09:01 am
Would an "assymetrical phallacy" hang right or left?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 09:17 am
This entire administration is an asymmetrical phallacy, Hobit, and it hangs right, of course. We righteous lefties, when we get our hands on those guys, will hang them straight.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 09:24 am
According to the art terminology of asymmetrical (yes, I caught your jibe of assymetrical with the lack of M & M's -- what no candy?) the ears would have to be large enough to balance out the phallus.

A good example of asymmetry is a mantlepiece with a shelf. If you place everything symmetrically like a pair of candlesticks on both sides and a clock in the center, that isn't as visually interesting as the two candlesticks to the right and the clock to the left. It's more of an art terminology which leads me to believe the word was meant to refer to "The Art of War."

I'm sure Dubya was fed that word to use and did not ad lib. It's got more than two syllables after all. I'm also sure he practiced pronouncing it but has no idea how to spell it. It could be that he meant that he was unbalanced and therefore this was an asymmetrical war.

As far as Iraq being the central front of the war on terrorism, Dubya would be wiped out in an old Western gunfight. He's not looking over his shoulder at Afghanistan. You'd assume he does know what is going on there but it seems to be on the back burner, like it's not worth worrying about. The Taliban is regrouping and we do not have the military manpower to do the job because we don't even have the manpower to handle Iraq. All that bragging by Rummy about a warfront on two fronts rings false now.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 11:01 am
The war in Afghanistan may be on the media's back burner, but it hasn't gone away. It has intensified. See, there are these people who want you and I to die. Shocked They used to plan how to kill us here, but now they've been drawn to Afghanistan and Iraq. They are too busy fighting on their own turf to formulate ways to kill us here. Plus, it's hard to get the funding for their groceries, rent and bomb materials, since the Bush admin froze their financial sources. Its not so easy to be a terrorist in America these days. Even if you hate Bush, this is construed as good news. And, Bush is given credit for this by a majority of Americans. This month, 63% of Americans say Bush made the right choice about Iraq, and a majority say the risks and problems are worth the result. (I'm betting they understand the term 'assymetrical', as well.)

Bush, nor his administration created the term assymetrical. Curious that so many here seem unable to comprehend the term. Symmetrical refers to two standing armies. Legitimate, conventional warfare. Assymetrical is unconventional warfare-- almost always referring to terrorism.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 11:12 am
Sofia wrote:
The war in Afghanistan may be on the media's back burner, but it hasn't gone away. It has intensified. See, there are these people who want you and I to die. Shocked


Well, here in Europe, Afghanistan is still in the headlines, especially, since 225 people died there within the last three weeks in different attacks.
So, Sofia, the Taliban are now going to kill us, too?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 11:19 am
Two standing armies are not symmetrical -- they are rarely balanced and one is obviously stronger than the other (and not necessarily in numbers). Still cheap semantics attributed to rhetorical political double talk. It has Karl Rove written all over it. A salesman would use that to manipulate the customer he is selling. Some are easily sold, push overs in buying from a shark salesman and defenseless from such tactics. You won't heard the term from any sensible, rational military man.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 11:25 am
The ordinary citizen is a pushover for slick salesman, for any product including politics. I doubt very much they understand the use of the word in this case -- in one ear and out the other. It was designed to make Bush sound intelligent but to anyone with a modicum of intelligence, it just accentuated his lack of intelligence.
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