0
   

The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:05 am
timberlandko wrote:
OK ... I'll try this ... They brought the fight to us in Beirut in the 60's, and in Munich and Iran in the '70s, and again in Beirut in the 80s, and in Lockerbee, and in Mogadishu, and in Yemen, and in Kuwait, and in New York, and in Istanbul, and .... well, that's the whole point you miss. Its war, its been underway for a generation, and it has become far more difficult, and dangerous, to ignore.


Now you're throwing everything together in one big random mix. If you look at it that way, the only thing you can get out of it is some big Clash of Civilisations between "the world of Islam" and "the Western world", yeh. But the PLO, Al-Qaeda and the Somalian warlords are hardly one and the same kind. Palestinian terrorism was about a very specific cause, had a very specific aim, and in a way was therefore much more easy to handle than the messianistic violence of Al-Qaeda's religious zealots.
0 Replies
 
Suzette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:05 am
Walter, perhaps I didn't use the term correctly; however, I still find it somewhat ironic (although right-on) that they toppled Bush as the statue of Saddam had been toppled earlier. Smile Cool
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:12 am
The dream of living in perfect harmony is a dream most all share. For it is natural for mankind to want peace and happiness, regardless of one's point of view. Achieving such a lofty goal as compassion and mutual respect for each other often means reaching a compromise by giving up one's own idea of what is right and what is wrong. For what is perceived as good for one is not always in reality good for another. "In harmony" means being in balance. The past has clearly shown us that for one side to demand of the other to 'conform or else' is the very root of conflict. Also it is a means of control. Tolerance is not a means to an end; it is both the means and the end. In order for there to be harmony, harmony must first come from within one's self.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:12 am
Kara wrote:
In my opinion, Al-Qaeda has become a franchise.


Thats a good one, sharply observed I think.

Kara wrote:
Until we get rid of the thorn in the Muslim side -- the occupation of Israel, which has become a powerful symbol of everything they hate about the western world -- the terror will continue, fed by anger-mongering schools in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.


Thats true, too. In the end, even though you should clamp down on the actual terrorists, the only way to stop ever more from appearing is by leading by example. There are zealots out there "mongering anger" - but by, for example, letting Israel get away so easily with the illegal occupation of - and now a wall cris-cross through - Palestinian territory (or by propping up corrupt and undemocratic ME regimes), we're making it awfully easy for them to gain a willing audience in the Arab population at large ...

And yes,

Quote:
Timber is right in that education, a degree of economic prosperity, and more secular governments will help raise a generation that has a more enlightened view


... so what we can do is support, promote, even fund organisations, institutions, projects and movements that focus on education, free media, civil society ... if we spent half as much on that as on the military hardware, we might in the end need a lot less of the latter.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:23 am
nimh, your response to Steve, above, is excellent. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:39 am
nimh wrote:
Gautam wrote:
I just spoke to my friends in Istanbul - thankfully, they and their families are okay. I am sad beyond words right now. Istanbul and Turkish people are such a lovely place/race.

Look what you have done to our world Mr Bush and Mr Blair Sad


Sorry, I'm usually on your side, but how on heaven's name is what is probably an Al-Qaeda attack in Istanbul the result of B+B's actions?



Now my heart is truly in pieces Sad nimh doesnt like me anymore !!

Far to happy and excited to give you my reasons right now, but I will be back......though Kara has come very close..
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:45 am
The German Spiegel-tv produced a documentary about how the US-army 'occupies' a small village, which can be seen online here:

VIDEO

Although the commentary is in German, you may get an idea about what is going on, since you still can hear the soldiers. (For a better sound/video quality, I suggest, you click on the link "Film im externen Player öffnen" - so you can see the video on your separate real-player, if you've got one.)


The story is about a 82th Airbone Division unit, under the command of 24-year old Eric Brown. This group has got the order, to hinder Arabians enter Iraq from Syria, in Husaiba, close to the border, and to get control of that town.

The German text from Spiegel-online re this documentary is to be found HERE

(The title of this report refers to a soldier, who answered somethimg like: "When the Iranians f*ck up, we will level the complete country", and another added: "But from the air.")
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 11:48 am
Gautam wrote:
Now my heart is truly in pieces Sad nimh doesnt like me anymore !!


LOL!

Nah Gautam dont worry my heart goes out to those who dont always agree with me ...

Just let 'em not always disagree with me, either, and I'll be fine ;-)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 01:24 pm
nimh wrote:
But the PLO, Al-Qaeda and the Somalian warlords are hardly one and the same kind

Neither were Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, nor Tojo's Japan. Or, for that matter, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, or Kim the Elder's Korea. In referrence to the Santayana quote enshrined at Auschwitz, I'll submit those mistakes we cannot afford to repeat. What is underway once again is a loose confederation of disparately motivated assaults on liberty and human rights, united only in their opposition to and contempt for the same.

Just a note to those who may have noticed: A an unanticipated server reboot was required a few minutes ago, which took A2K offline for a bit. The cause is known, and measures are being taken to solve the problem.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 01:24 pm
Walter -- The new puppy chewed my speaker cables and there's no point my trying to get your link...(!) but I have heard a soldier's report (I assume it's the same one) on a right-wing radio show here which is disgusted with Bush and publicizes everything they can find that's going wrong. The "level Iraq, plow 'em under" stuff is also being heard on some of the more mainstream call-in shows from Americans who like their violence neat and quick...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 01:50 pm
I copy and paste this interesting report from ther British conservative daily Telegraph, since you have to register to view that online:
Quote:
Textbooks take a short cut through history
By Jack Fairweather
(Filed: 21/11/2003)


American administrators have purged the history textbooks of Saddam Hussein's Iraq, but instead of rewriting the country's past they chose to leave it out.

Large swathes of the 20th century have been cut out of the school books, with the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority anxious to avoid imposing a victor's version of events.

The result is that the new textbook will arrive in Iraq's 16,000 schools this month only half its former size.

As well as references to the former leader being removed, so too have potentially controversial subjects such as the Iran-Iraq war, the 1991 Gulf war, and all mentions of America, Kurds and Israelis.

"We have been told by the Americans that Iraq's history is a very sensitive topic and it would be better to deal with it later," said Fuad Hussein, the Iraqi in charge of the curriculum for the education ministry.

"We need to have a consensus across the whole of Iraqi society about how to talk about our past."

The cuts reflect the political challenges faced by the CPA as it rebuilds Iraq's schools, retrains its teachers and rewrites textbooks.

US administrators want Iraqis to write their own history, but do not want anti-American or radical religious propaganda - which they fear might be popular in the current climate - in the classroom.

"The Iraqis need time to write a history for the country which won't be discriminatory as it was under the former regime," a CPA spokesman said.

Plans to establish an educational committee to oversee the writing of a history syllabus for schools will take two or three years, Mr Hussein said.

But Huda Shahed Yousiph, who is studying to be a history teacher, said: "If the Americans write our history they will put in only good things about themselves. If that's the case I won't follow the book because the Americans destroyed us. That's what I'll teach."

source: Telegraph
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 02:15 pm
Walter, I don't know whether to laugh or cry about the Telegraph article.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 02:17 pm
Walter, You probably know that we do the same thing here. I have a friend on a state textbook commission who once regaled me (if that's the right phrase!) with the non-events in American history.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 02:31 pm
Walter, Sounds similar to how the US government treated us during WWII. Our government put us in concentration camps during the war, and never bothered to include that history in our school textbooks. Many in this country are still ignorant of the fact (after 50 years); and I still find people in this country that hears it for the very first time from me.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 02:32 pm
Suzette wrote:
Walter, perhaps I didn't use the term correctly; however, I still find it somewhat ironic (although right-on) that they toppled Bush as the statue of Saddam had been toppled earlier. Smile Cool


It isn't ironic if you consider who organized the protest, naughty Suzette.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 03:15 pm
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 03:43 pm
timberlandko wrote:
nimh wrote:
But the PLO, Al-Qaeda and the Somalian warlords are hardly one and the same kind

Neither were Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, nor Tojo's Japan. Or, for that matter, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, or Kim the Elder's Korea.


The relevant bit there would be that Stalin, Mao and Kim shared an ideology and a state system - and more specifically, shared an ideological justification (and perhaps motivation) for their "assaults on liberty and human rights". In a way that, say, Mobutu, Idi Amin and Khadafi do not, even if they all happen(ed) to be Africans.

You havent been fighting the same war against the same enemy for thirty years ... The only common label you could gather the nationalist terror of the 1970s PLO, the gangland violence of the Somali warlords and the fundamentalist zealotism of current-day Al-Qaeda under is indeed "Arab" or "Muslim" - and yeh, if that's what you take as perspective I guess it does look like there's some amorphous cultural onslaught you have to brace yourself against ...

Which would explain a lot about the catchall knee-jerk reactions some label 'appropriate defensive policy' ... But the more you shove people together in container-labels for the one 'enemy camp' - the more people you'll find in there ... hence my warnings up here.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 03:56 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I copy and paste this interesting report from ther British conservative daily Telegraph, since you have to register to view that online:
Quote:
Textbooks take a short cut through history
By Jack Fairweather
(Filed: 21/11/2003)


Walter, that actually makes total sense to me ...

I mean, what were the alternatives?

A) continue using Saddam's history textbooks. The Kurds would like that ... not. Imagine having to learn history from a textbook that celebrates a Leader that had your parents tortured - and from whom you're supposed to have been "liberated" since half a year or so ...

B) somehow write a new history book, in current conditions. Who would do it? How credible would it be? Actually, I would have totally expected the neocons to push for a complete new history textbook, with 'appropriate' contents - and can easily imagine the flak they would have rightly gotten for it.

No, to just say, lookit - we're in a phase of transition now, the old Truth doesn't hold up anymore, but we are not going to tell you what the new Truth is - you have to figure that out by yourself; so by ways of compromise, as the admistration-of-the-moment, we're just going to pragmatically leave the controversial bits out until you've worked them out - actually seems like a very liberal solution! :-)
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 04:29 pm
"Assaults on liberty and human rights
It is ongoing with subtle inclusions of Patriot Act 2.

The USA is NOT a Democracy. It is an Oligarchy and soon will be a Police State.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2003 05:47 pm
Actually, pistoff, The US is not a "Democrasy" in the strict sense. It is a freely suffraged constitutional democratic federal republic, which operates under an economic system of publicly participatory freemarket mercantile capitalism, altogether a more complex thing. A simplistic and derisive assessment of the nature you provide would be laughable but for the ignorance and/or total misunderstanding of politics and socio-economics it betrays.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 12/23/2024 at 08:37:27