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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 10:27 pm
Another smear campaign by the Repubs.
Timberlake is real typical of these Repub. smear masters. No evidence but then their motto is: Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 10:32 pm
Is it possible you didn't note timberlandko's quoted source? It's in the white space surrounded by a dashed box
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 10:40 pm
I'm sorry Roger, I must have missed where he claimed a source for 'lots of folks'. I thought he just laid it out there as truth if no one called him on it .... oops
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 10:41 pm
A smear then followed by more smear.
Exactly my point. Timberlake posted no facts. Merely joined in the smear campaign. Rolling Eyes Typical Repub. MO.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 10:55 pm
What king George would do to all that oppose him.
Be afraid, be very afraid .......


Quote:

August 21, 2003

Jose Padilla: No Charges and No Trial, Just Jail

by Robert A. Levy

Robert A. Levy is senior fellow in constitutional studies at the Cato Institute.

Jose Padilla is the U.S. citizen who supposedly plotted to detonate a "dirty bomb." Since his capture -- not on the battlefields of Afghanistan or Iraq, but at Chicago's O'Hare Airport -- he has not been charged with any crime. Yet, for more than a year, Padilla has been held incommunicado in a South Carolina military brig.

Padilla's indefinite detention, without access to an attorney, has civil libertarians up in arms. That's why the Cato Institute, joined by five ideologically diverse public policy organizations -- the Center for National Security Studies, the Constitution Project, the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, People for the American Way, and the Rutherford Institute -- filed a friend-of-the-court brief in Padilla v. Rumsfeld, now pending before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in New York.

Consider this specious logic, endorsed by the Bush administration: Under the Sixth Amendment, the right to counsel does not apply until charges are filed. The government has not charged Padilla. Ordinarily, U.S. citizens cannot be detained without charge. But the administration has avoided that technicality by designating Padilla as an "enemy combatant," then proclaiming that the court may not second-guess his designation.

Essentially, on orders of the executive branch, anyone could wind up imprisoned by the military with no way to assert his innocence. That frightening prospect was echoed by J. Harvie Wilkinson, the respected and steadfastly conservative chief judge of the Fourth Circuit. In a case involving another U.S. citizen, Yaser Hamdi, Wilkinson warned, "With no meaningful judicial review, any American citizen alleged to be an enemy combatant could be detained indefinitely without charges or counsel." Judge Wilkinson upheld Hamdi's detention but pointedly noted that Hamdi's battlefield capture was like "apples and oranges" compared to Padilla's arrest in Chicago. "We aren't placing our imprimatur upon a new day of executive detentions," Wilkinson cautioned.

An unambiguous federal statute and the U.S. Constitution both prohibit the executive branch from doing to Padilla what it is now doing. More than three decades ago, Congress passed Title 18, section 4001(a) of the U.S. Code. It states, "No citizen shall be imprisoned or otherwise detained by the United States except pursuant to an Act of Congress." Today, we have not had from Congress any statute that authorizes Padilla's detention.

Yes, Congress enacted the PATRIOT Act, which says that non-citizens suspected of terrorism can be detained, but only for seven days. After that, they have to be released or charged, unless the attorney general certifies every six months that they present a security risk. Two months earlier, Congress had passed a resolution empowering the president to use all necessary force against the 9/11 terrorists. But that resolution surely did not give the administration unfettered discretion to detain citizens without charge. If it had, then the ensuing PATRIOT Act would have afforded more protection to aliens than to citizens. In the wake of the 9/11 attacks, that proposition is incredible.

Reasonably construed, Congress' resolution on the use of military force triggered the president's commander-in-chief authority. He could then order seizure of enemy soldiers and detention of persons found in a zone of active combat. But he could not order the imprisonment, without charge, of an unarmed non-soldier far from active combat, especially a U.S. citizen on our own soil.

Nor is the administration justified in its reliance on Ex parte Quirin, the Supreme Court case involving eight Nazi saboteurs, one of whom was an American citizen. The executive branch acted in Quirin in accordance with congressional authorization. The eight Nazis were represented by counsel, charged, tried, and convicted. Here, by contrast, Padilla has been denied any chance to defend himself. He has seen no lawyer; he has not been charged, much less tried and convicted. And he has been imprisoned notwithstanding a 30-year-old statute that expressly forbids the unauthorized detention of U.S. citizens.

Padilla may deserve the treatment he is receiving -- perhaps worse. That is not the point. When Americans are taken into custody, they have the right to retain an attorney. Congress must first set the rules. Then an impartial judge, not the president, should make the ultimate decision as to whether the arrest and imprisonment comport with the Constitution. James Madison, in Federalist No. 47, put it succinctly: "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands ... may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."

This article was published in the Chicago Sun-times, Aug. 11, 2003.




SOURCE
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 11:00 pm
pistoff, read around on the threads a bit. I think you'll find my most liberal attribute is precisely the practice of providing links, references, and bibliographic citations, and most rarely are any of those to op-ed pieces. Most "Opinion" or "Commentary" I post is my own ... I'm more into digging into and presenting facts, figures,and hard news, then offering my thoughts pertaining thereto, than to quoting the thoughts of pundits who say things in line with my position. My practice in that regard really bugs some folks. You oughtta study the game before you start moving pieces. No problem here, though; you're new to this game, and I don't hold that against you. Hell, I figure you've probably got what it takes to engage in debate and discussion, the civil, rational, reasoned exchange and criticism of ideas and opinions. I look forward to that. I sure hope you do.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 11:08 pm
Debates?
Uh...no thanks. There is absolutely no point to debating. No one ever changes their views. I just use this place to vent. It's a bit of therapy for me. Posting POV is the method I prefer. I never expect anyone to agree with me on anything. That isn't my goal. I am not here to convert anyone to anything.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 11:19 pm
Tjhe point isn't converting anyone, IMO, its sharing and exploring views, perhaps expanding the boundaries of one's knowledge, and gaining understanding of and appreciation for divergent views and differing perspectives ... and doing so in civil and adult manner. Venting is fine. Some folks go in for that. Some don't. There are lots of reasons folks hang out at A2K. Enjoy yourself here however you care to, as long as its civil. I don't much give a damn if someone insults me personally, but others are more bothered by general nastiness. That calls up the part of my job here I'm not particularly fond of.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 11:25 pm
Fair enough
I will try hard not to call you any derogatory names or insult you personally. I will continue to point out falacies, as I have just done, from time to time though. Smile
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 11:56 pm
Call me anything you want, and feel free to call me on anything I say here. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not a participant in a popularity contest. I wouldn't see much point bein' here if everybody agreed with me. Just be adult about it, and try to treat the other members with a little respect.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 12:01 am
No, Gel, it is I who owe an apology to you. It was my mistaken idea that this:

Kara wrote:
Quote:
lots of folks who saw Wes and Tim fencing this morning were more than a little taken with the impression that Wes was more hothead than hero .


This is an issue that has bothered me about Wesley Clark. I'd like to know more about why he was suddenly decommissioned.

So do you like any of the Dem candidates, Timber?

Memo to self: Ask not and you shall not receive.


was a request for an opinion, which was given. My error.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 01:28 am
Oh, yeah ... it was that "lots of folks" thing that got all this goin' wasn't it? Haven't really hunted down any links on that. Here's one, and another... its an active topic in the conservative blogosphere; I've gotten quite a few emails. While its purely anecdotal, clients and business associates discussing it have expressed sentiment similar to mine, but then none of them are real liberal either. Its gotten next to no TV play, as far as I'm aware. I imagine NewsMax and that crowd are having fun with it too, but I haven't checked. Interesting that my comment stirred up so much fuss here ... musta hit a nerve, I guess. Then, my opinions often do.

Just for the heck of it, pistoff,
you wrote:
Timberlake is real typical of these Repub. smear masters. No evidence but then their motto is: Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts.


Care to trot out independently verifiable data, peer-reviewed studies appearing in accredited journals, academic books or other scholarly, non-partisan publications, sworn testimony or other legal documents, multiple independently sourced corroborative news articles, exclusive of opinion or commentary, or any of that sort of real evidence stuff, or is your comment, which contains, but does not support, at least four individual assertions of condition, performance, or state of being merely a statement of personal opinion lacking external validation?

And thanks, rog, for pointing that out ... I did get a little distracted there.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 02:00 am
It wasn't the topic .
I am not a liberal so I am not defending Clark. My observation derives from reading many of your comments. I could if I wished to spend a few hours, documenting these observations and also the smear tactics of Repubs. and yeah from Dems,as well and the far left etc. but... I won't. :wink:

Be glad. Be real glad. Smile
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 05:51 am
Timber is always spouting forth on the need for intellectual rigour....as this aside to pistoff

"Care to trot out independently verifiable data, peer-reviewed studies appearing in accredited journals, academic books or other scholarly, non-partisan publications, sworn testimony or other legal documents, multiple independently sourced corroborative news articles, exclusive of opinion or commentary, or any of that sort of real evidence stuff...."


Whereas Timbers reference of "Exclusive commentary by CK Rairden" in the Washington Post is just comment on comment on comment amounting to a pile of mush.

And I know nothing about Rush Limbaugh and care less.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 06:35 am
I think we might just see something useful come out of this visit. Bush is bringing Rice and Powell, not Rumsfeld and Cheney.

Powell is in Belgium en route talking to the Israeli ambassador. Then meeting with European foreign ministers for talks on Iran's nuclear program, and the other I.. country in that region whose name escapes me for the moment.

Blair has given Bush everything he wanted. Bush has given nothing back. The one thing that could justify the Iraq (that was it, how could I forget) mess is a general middle east settlement, at its core a viable Palestinian State. Not of course what the neocons and the Likudniks around Bush wanted at all. But they're back in the States. Bush has been allowed out on his own and is talking to people to whom he might feel obligated. They must be very worried.

Don't hold your breath, but there is a small chance we might see a real commitment on behalf of Bush to drive the Road Map to peace forward. That would bring a smile to Tony's face, and the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world, and America and Bush might regain some respect. What's the chance of Bush doing the honourable thing.?..well he's your President, you tell me.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 06:37 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Timber
Quote:
Gel, lots of folks who saw Wes and Tim fencing this morning were more than a little taken with the impression that Wes was more hothead than hero ... I suspect he'll take some heat for that venture into near intemperance from among The Other Eight


Timber, could you put more of a face than 'lots of folks' on your rheoric? Why the **** is it that republicans think that just because they utter it ..... its true? Back up what you claim for gospel just once ... give a source !!!!!!

DAMN Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
It was this that got things started .... and this that perpetuates it ....[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
timberlandko wrote:
Oh, yeah ... it was that "lots of folks" thing that got all this goin' wasn't it? Haven't really hunted down any links on that. Here's one, and another... its an active topic in the conservative blogosphere; I've gotten quite a few emails. While its purely anecdotal, clients and business associates discussing it have expressed sentiment similar to mine, but then none of them are real liberal either. Its gotten next to no TV play, as far as I'm aware. I imagine NewsMax and that crowd are having fun with it too, but I haven't checked. Interesting that my comment stirred up so much fuss here ... musta hit a nerve, I guess. Then, my opinions often do.

Just for the heck of it, pistoff,
you wrote:
Timberlake is real typical of these Repub. smear masters. No evidence but then their motto is: Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts.


Care to trot out independently verifiable data, peer-reviewed studies appearing in accredited journals, academic books or other scholarly, non-partisan publications, sworn testimony or other legal documents, multiple independently sourced corroborative news articles, exclusive of opinion or commentary, or any of that sort of real evidence stuff, or is your comment, which contains, but does not support, at least four individual assertions of condition, performance, or state of being merely a statement of personal opinion lacking external validation?

And thanks, rog, for pointing that out ... I did get a little distracted there.


If one takes the time to read through your posts one notices a lot of 'opine' presented as 'fact'.
For instance .... "Its gotten next to no TV play, as far as I'm aware. " #1 have you looked? Rhetoric presented as truth is no more than propaganda.

BTW I am listening to C-SPAN as I typ and they just reported on the exchange.. .. far right POV?
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 06:44 am
Chance?
What's the chance of Bush doing the honourable thing.?

It depends on what he is ordered to do by his bosses. I have no idea what they have on their minds.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 06:57 am
But that is my point pisstof

He's temporarily out of their control. And Bush is nominally the President. And Blair, to whom he owes a great deal, can be very persuasive.

I hope Powell has told the Israeli ambassador that the whole plan for Greater Israel is dead. That Israel will have to be content with its pre 67 borders, but in return gets a peaceful neighbourhood. The zealots left back in the US will go mad, but who cares?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 07:09 am
C-SPAN is about Padilla this am .. if you are interested
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2003 07:15 am
Quote:


Slain troops' parents could be hard on Bush
Tue 18 November, 2003 12:37

By Peter Graff

LONDON (Reuters) - Reg Keys, whose son Thomas was killed in Iraq, is not on the list of family members of fallen British servicemen invited to meet George W. Bush this week, but he wishes he was: he has a message for the U.S. president.

"I'd love to meet him, but I'd refuse his hand," he said. "I'd say: 'I can't shake that hand. It's stained with the blood of my son.'"

Bush's meetings with families of soldiers killed in Iraq have been billed as one of the centrepieces of his state visit to wartime ally Britain this week.

But as Prime Minister Tony Blair has already learned, the president is likely to find them a difficult audience.

Over the past months, parents and widows of slain soldiers have emerged as some of the war's most potent critics, many trying to balance pride in their husbands' and sons' sacrifice with anger over what they see as false justifications for war.

Lance-Corporal Thomas Keys, 20, was one of six British Royal Military Policemen who was killed by an angry mob while training Iraqi police on June 24 in a town near the southern city of Basra.

"I want to challenge Bush to meet me," Reg Keys told Reuters by telephone from his home in Wales. "I think I know more about what's going on in Iraq than he does, from phone calls with my son who was on the ground out there."

In interviews ahead of his visit to London, Bush stressed his plans to meet the families of soldiers who died in Iraq, to "tell them their loved ones did not die in vain. The actions we have taken will make the world more secure and the world more peaceful in the long run."

But Bush's comments have been partly overshadowed by widows and parents, several of whom have said they want no part of what Keys called "a propaganda means for his re-election".

"I'm proud of my son. He died doing his duty," he said. "But what you have to bring out is: Was their duty justified?"

His son died believing he had gone to war to protect his country from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, which have yet to be found, Keys said.

"I think we were all deceived and I think (Bush) has got a nerve to show his face after the deceit he's pointed toward us," he added. "My son goes off to war thinking he's protecting the country -- he's gone off deceived and lost his life deceived."

The Ministry of Defence said the meetings with the families of service members would be private and gave no details as to who had been invited or how they were selected. The MoD lists 53 British servicemen as having died in the conflict.

At a memorial service for them in London's St Paul's Cathedral last month, Blair did not speak. The sermon was given by Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, one of the war's steadiest critics.

Several family members said they did not want Blair to attend that service at all. Keys said he sought out the prime minister at a reception afterwards.

"I said that the blood of my son is on your hands. 'You are responsible. How do you react to that?'" Keys said.

"He looked white. I have to be fair to the man. He didn't dodge the question. He did say that he was responsible for the deaths, that he was trying to make Iraq a better place."

"I said: 'All you've done is kick the lid off a hornets' nest.'"



SOURCE
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