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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 07:56 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Gel, again you assume much. Don't bite down too hard, that's your own tail between your teeth.



(This was voted as the best e-mail joke in Australia in 2001.
Hope you enjoy it.)


After being nearly snowbound for two weeks last winter, a Seattle
man departed for his vacation in Miami Beach, where he was to meet
his wife the next day at the conclusion of her business trip to Minneapolis.

They were looking forward to pleasant weather and a nice time together.

Unfortunately, there was some sort of mix up at the boarding gate,
and the man was told he would have to wait for a later flight. He
tried to appeal to a supervisor but was told the airline was not
responsible for the problem and it would do no good to complain.

Upon arrival at the hotel the next day, he discovered that Miami Beach
was having a heat wave, and its weather was almost as uncomfortably
hot as Seattle's was cold. The desk clerk gave him a message that his
wife would arrive as planned. He could hardly wait to get to the pool
area to cool off, and quickly sent his wife an e-mail, but due to his
haste, he made an error in the e-mail address.
His message therefore arrived at the home of an elderly preacher's
wife whose even older husband had died only the day before.

When the grieving widow opened her e-mail, she took one look at the
monitor, let out an anguished scream, and fell to the floor in a dead faint.

Her family rushed to her room where they saw this message on the screen:

Dearest wife,
Departed yesterday as you know. Just now got checked in.
Some confusion at the gate. Appeal was denied. Received confirmation
of your arrival tomorrow.
Your loving husband.
P.S. Things are not as we thought. You're going to be surprised
at how hot it is down here.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 08:16 pm
That is funny, Gel ... good one. On an airtravel note, here's another:

A man walks up to an airline ticket counter, carrying three pieces of luggage. He tells the clerk he'd like a ticket to Toronto. The clerk proceeds to fill the request, then asks the man if there is anything else he would like. The man says indeed there is. He places one of his pieces of luggage on the the counter and says "I'd like this bag to go to Boston", follows with a second piece of luggage, declaring he'd like it sent to Caracas before arriving in Toronto, and finally, the third piece is hoisted to the counter, with a request it be sent to Toronto via Hong Kong and Tel Aviv. The clerk, taken aback and perplexed, exclaims "Sir, we can't do that!". The man responds "The hell you can't; you did it last week."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 08:24 pm
Timber, Good one ..... now back to work Smile

Iraq: How Will Washington 'Accelerate' Transfer Of Power To Iraqis?
By Jeffrey Donovan

The buzzword on Iraq in Washington this week seems to be "accelerate" -- as in accelerating the transfer of power to the Iraqi people. How the U.S.-led coalition will go about doing that remains unclear, but setting up a provisional Iraqi government appears to be a first step.

Washington, 14 November 2003 (RFE/RL) -- U.S. officials are planning big changes in Iraq, even if they're not exactly saying so.

Amid a surge in violence and reports that Washington is losing the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, the Bush administration has signaled that it's shifting tactics on the country's reconstruction by speeding up the transfer of authority to Iraqis.

Previously, Washington had insisted that a constitution be written before elections could be held. That process would take two or more years.

But recent events, including a suicide bombing that killed at least 18 Italians and nine Iraqis in Al-Nasiriyah this week, suggest that Washington may not have that much time to wait before handing over power.

After meeting yesterday with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said in Washington: "We're all interested in accelerating the process of putting in place a government for the people of Iraq reflecting the will of the Iraqi people and representing all the people of Iraq. And it has been our mutual goal -- of the United Kingdom and the United States and all of our coalition partners -- to do this as fast as we can."

Reflecting a new urgency, U.S. President George W. Bush also said yesterday that authority should be transferred faster to the Iraqi people.

But Bush declined to confirm reports that following talks this week in Washington with the U.S. administrator of Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, he has decided to abandon his previous plan for the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority to retain power until a constitution is drafted, adopted, elections held and a representative government chosen.

But standing next to Straw at the State Department, Powell acknowledged that the previous American plan would just take too long.

"There has been concern expressed that the time required to write a constitution, if you are going to go through an election process to determine who should be on that constitutional writing commission, could eat up a great deal of time -- more time than we think can be allowed before we start transferring sovereignty back. And so we are trying to work through those concerns and see if there's a way to work through them or to find alternatives that would speed up the process," Powell said.

Bremer's sudden trip back to Washington this week, and the shift in tack by the administration, came shortly after a CIA report was leaked to the U.S. media. That report concludes the United States is quickly losing the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. The report was given extensive coverage.

In an interview with RFE/RL, one observer, Middle East expert and former U.S. diplomat David Phillips, quipped: "It's rather remarkable that a report has to be released to the press in order to get the White House's attention."

Phillips, who is with the New York-based Council on Foreign Relations, says that although U.S. officials aren't yet going on record as saying so, the first step Washington is likely to take in Iraq is to turn over power to a provisional government.

That government would begin the work of restoring Iraqi governance while overseeing the writing and adopting of a constitution, as the provisional administration of President Hamid Karzai has done in Afghanistan. Phillips says elections could take place after a process lasting up to two years, as in the original U.S. plan.

It's just that the new plan would restore Iraqi sovereignty from the start, a position long held by France, the chief international critic of the war. Yesterday, French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said France is ready to help with reconstruction once power is handed over to a provisional Iraqi government. France wants that to happen by the end of the year, not by next summer, as some U.S. administration officials are now hinting.

If there is irony in this, Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser, doesn't see it. Briefing reporters yesterday at the White House, she said "nothing has changed" in the U.S. approach.

"Nobody has ever tried to be locked in stone about the forms by which, or the mechanisms by which, we would try to transfer more authority [to Iraqis]. It is still important that the Iraqi people have a permanent constitution. It's still important that they have elections for a permanent government. Nothing has changed. But what is also important is that we find ways to accelerate the transfer of authority to the Iraqi people," Rice said.

U.S. officials have so far offered no details on how power will be transferred to a provisional Iraqi government. But Phillips, who says he's spoken a lot about this issue with Iraqis, has his own ideas about what should be done.

"It's important that everybody feel represented. And I've long advocated that the way that you do that is by emphasizing local government -- by developing a federal system with maximum power-sharing that allows the regions and local leaders to control levers of governance at the community and at the provincial level," Phillips said.

Phillips says the coalition could get the process started by having the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council promulgate a basic law that enshrines constitutional principles. He believes the provisional government could include the Governing Council and ministers that have already been appointed.

Then, Phillips would like to see Iraq's 18 provinces send delegates to establish an interim assembly. He says the process of going to political and tribal leaders and asking them to assign representatives to the assembly could be accomplished in two or three months.

Once that interim assembly is established, Phillips says it can designate a constitutional commission that can begin a drafting process that would take six months. Another six months of town meetings and consultations would make sure that the Iraqi people feel ownership in the outcome.

In the end, Phillips says that once the constitution is ratified and national elections held, the United States can -- in his words -- "claim some kind of victory." But he cautions that if Iraqis don't truly feel part of the process, they will end up resenting the coalition, as well as each other.

"If that's the case, you run the risk of Iraq imploding -- the worst-case scenario actually being the result, which is widespread ethnic and religious violence, the country's fragmentation, and Iraq's neighbors like Turkey adventuring across the border to assert their interests," Phillips said.


Copyright (c) 2003. RFE/RL, Inc.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 08:56 pm
A special award for Condie
The Double Speak Award. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 09:02 pm
Oh, what the hell. I can cite opinion congruent with my own, too.


Quote:
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/small_logo.gif From StrategyPage.Com

Hooey, Hogwash and Malarkey from the Critics of the Iraq War

by Austin Bay
November 11, 2003


The first jab at the Bush administration from the "peace at any price" crowd -- the charge of "unilateralism" -- had a rather elastic definition, but then hooey always has a high rubber content.

Unilateral? The United States had spent 12 years providing the spine behind U.N. Security Council Resolution 687 (which ended Desert Storm and sanctioned Saddam). Bush also put Resolution 1444 through the Security Council -- a last chance for Saddam to meet 687's requirements.

Before and after the Taliban collapse in Afghanistan, the Bush administration coordinated humanitarian aid with the United Nations and a host of organizations. Humanitarian cooperation across the spectrum of aid and development organizations is standard procedure for America, no matter who runs the White House. Frankly, the World Food Program and similar agencies would flop without extensive U.S. political, financial and logistical support. The Bush administration provides that support to these "multilateral" agencies.

So scotch "unilateral."

Then came the "rush to war" hokum, a charge utterly ignoring the long war with Saddam that began Aug. 2, 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. In retrospect, the U.S. reaction to Saddam's provocations in 1994 and 1996 was slow and inadequate. Rush to war? In early 2003, leftist "human shields" rushed to Baghdad, to protect Iraqis from U.S. bombs. In November 2003, however, there's no peacenik rush to put their bodies between U.N. facilities and Al Qaeda car bombers.

Once Operation Iraqi Freedom kicked off, the defeatist cant became "quagmire." The New York Times' R W Apple declared in late March (on the front page) that Central Command's attack was a "quagmire." Of course, CENTCOM pulled off one of the most successful military offensives in history.

Pundits dub the next tripe theme "The Imminent Lie." This hogwash maintains Bush "lied," alleging the president said that Saddam was an imminent threat to attack with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. Actually, in his 2003 State of the Union address Bush said just the opposite, that we couldn't wait until the threat was imminent.

Now we've come to the long trial in Iraq. Dictatorships are the biggest cause of terrorism and the biggest cause of poverty on this planet. The Iraqi people have a truly blessed opportunity -- the chance to build a democracy in the politically dysfunctional Middle East. However, defeatist poobahs chant, "No one told us the job would be tough."

Malarkey. Early on, defense and policy analysts publicly vetted post-Saddam challenges. In a recent column, I trotted out a quote from an article I wrote in The Weekly Standard's Dec. 9, 2002, issue. Forgive me, it must trot again:

"U.S. and allied forces liberating Iraq will attempt -- more or less simultaneously -- to end combat operations, cork public passions, disarm Iraqi battalions, bury the dead, generate electricity, pump potable water, bring law out of embittering lawlessness, empty jails of political prisoners, pack jails with criminals, turn armed partisans into peaceful citizens, rearm local cops who were once enemy infantry, shoot terrorists, thwart chiselers, carpetbaggers and black marketeers, fix sewers, feed refugees, patch potholes, get trash trucks rolling, and accomplish all this under the lidless gaze of Peter Jennings and Al Jazeera."

Winning a war is difficult. Ask the World War II generation.

Every experienced strategist understands warfare is, at its most basic level, a clash of human wills. The motive will of a man who spends years preparing to smash a jet into a skyscraper is large in big letters. His cohorts are betting that America is a sitcom nation with a short attention span. We'll change channels, cut and run.

Mature Americans recognize that everyone has a leadership role, especially in times of crisis. The cooperation and common trust demonstrated by Americans evacuating the World Trade Center not only saved thousands of lives, it was indicative of America's capacity for individual leadership.

Self-critique is one thing, the acid of self-doubt spurred by lies is something else. It's time for every American to be a leader, to bury these lies -- from unilateralism, to quagmire, to "no one told us" -- and get on with the hard business of winning the War on Terror.

COPYRIGHT 2001 - 2003 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 09:07 pm
everybody's got one Laughing
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 09:24 pm
Timber, your recent posts seem to indicate that you bear the attitude that war is always desirable, that it is fun,and that it is the most noble of human endeavours. Is this a misreading of your opinion on my part, or is this truly how you feel? Sad
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 09:36 pm
Quote:
Berlusconi said his support for the United States was partly motivated out of gratitude to the Americans who saved Europe from Nazism and Communism over the past century.

He called on Europe not to forget these sacrifices, saying it was necessary to show "loyalty."


Gelisgesti, I heard an interview on NPR the other week with a high-ranking French diplomat or official (I tuned in after the talk got underway) and he replied to critics who said the French were ungrateful after the US saved them in WWII. He said that the French will always be grateful to America -- he would himself, to his dying day -- but that the US had saved France so that the country could be free. It is now free to disagree, free to be its own self. There is no disloyalty in thinking for itself. They are two different things, he said. We will always love and thank the Americans. But we are free and must think for ourselves.

I see Iraq in this light. We "freed" the country (remains to be seen...) and what will happen if they pick a way we don't want them to go? The old conundrum: I saved your life. What do you owe me?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 09:40 pm
Quote:
The man responds "The hell you can't; you did it last week."


Laughing
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 09:48 pm
That's a misreading, hbob, and perhaps indicative that you do not read carefully or that you remember what you would like to think the author has written.

Anywho, back to opinions ... here's a longish, but fascinating piece from The Weekly Standard, an opinionated source if ever there was one. This article mixes opinion with what, if it is actual reportage and can be independently verified, is quite significant. Apparently, there has been yet another "High Level Leak" from our old freinds the CIA. Founded or not, the story is getting a hell of a lot of attention; Weekly Standard's website is returning a "Server Too Busy" error. I recall an article from back in April, appearing in a mainstream newspaper, that ties in to this. I'll try to find it and post it here if its still available.


Quote:
From the November 24, 2003 issue of The Weekly Standard

Case Closed
The U.S. government's secret memo detailing cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.

by Stephen F. Hayes
11/24/2003, Volume 009, Issue 11



OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda--perhaps even for Mohamed Atta--according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum obtained by THE WEEKLY STANDARD.

The memo, dated October 27, 2003, was sent from Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith to Senators Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller, the chairman and vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. It was written in response to a request from the committee as part of its investigation into prewar intelligence claims made by the administration. Intelligence reporting included in the 16-page memo comes from a variety of domestic and foreign agencies, including the FBI, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the National Security Agency. Much of the evidence is detailed, conclusive, and corroborated by multiple sources. Some of it is new information obtained in custodial interviews with high-level al Qaeda terrorists and Iraqi officials, and some of it is more than a decade old. The picture that emerges is one of a history of collaboration between two of America's most determined and dangerous enemies.

According to the memo--which lays out the intelligence in 50 numbered points--Iraq-al Qaeda contacts began in 1990 and continued through mid-March 2003, days before the Iraq War began. Most of the numbered passages contain straight, fact-based intelligence reporting, which in some cases includes an evaluation of the credibility of the source. This reporting is often followed by commentary and analysis.

The relationship began shortly before the first Gulf War. According to reporting in the memo, bin Laden sent "emissaries to Jordan in 1990 to meet with Iraqi government officials." At some unspecified point in 1991, according to a CIA analysis, "Iraq sought Sudan's assistance to establish links to al Qaeda." The outreach went in both directions. According to 1993 CIA reporting cited in the memo, "bin Laden wanted to expand his organization's capabilities through ties with Iraq."

The primary go-between throughout these early stages was Sudanese strongman Hassan al-Turabi, a leader of the al Qaeda-affiliated National Islamic Front. Numerous sources have confirmed this. One defector reported that "al-Turabi was instrumental in arranging the Iraqi-al Qaeda relationship. The defector said Iraq sought al Qaeda influence through its connections with Afghanistan, to facilitate the transshipment of proscribed weapons and equipment to Iraq. In return, Iraq provided al Qaeda with training and instructors."

One such confirmation came in a postwar interview with one of Saddam Hussein's henchmen. As the memo details:


4. According to a May 2003 debriefing of a senior Iraqi intelligence officer, Iraqi intelligence established a highly secretive relationship with Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and later with al Qaeda. The first meeting in 1992 between the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) and al Qaeda was brokered by al-Turabi. Former IIS deputy director Faruq Hijazi and senior al Qaeda leader [Ayman al] Zawahiri were at the meeting--the first of several between 1992 and 1995 in Sudan. Additional meetings between Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda were held in Pakistan. Members of al Qaeda would sometimes visit Baghdad where they would meet the Iraqi intelligence chief in a safe house. The report claimed that Saddam insisted the relationship with al Qaeda be kept secret. After 9-11, the source said Saddam made a personnel change in the IIS for fear the relationship would come under scrutiny from foreign probes.
A decisive moment in the budding relationship came in 1993, when bin Laden faced internal resistance to his cooperation with Saddam.


5. A CIA report from a contact with good access, some of whose reporting has been corroborated, said that certain elements in the "Islamic Army" of bin Laden were against the secular regime of Saddam. Overriding the internal factional strife that was developing, bin Laden came to an "understanding" with Saddam that the Islamic Army would no longer support anti-Saddam activities. According to sensitive reporting released in U.S. court documents during the African Embassy trial, in 1993 bin Laden reached an "understanding" with Saddam under which he (bin Laden) forbade al Qaeda operations to be mounted against the Iraqi leader.
Another facilitator of the relationship during the mid-1990s was Mahmdouh Mahmud Salim (a.k.a. Abu Hajer al-Iraqi). Abu Hajer, now in a New York prison, was described in court proceedings related to the August 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania as bin Laden's "best friend." According to CIA reporting dating back to the Clinton administration, bin Laden trusted him to serve as a liaison with Saddam's regime and tasked him with procurement of weapons of mass destruction for al Qaeda. FBI reporting in the memo reveals that Abu Hajer "visited Iraq in early 1995" and "had a good relationship with Iraqi intelligence. Sometime before mid-1995 he went on an al Qaeda mission to discuss unspecified cooperation with the Iraqi government."

Some of the reporting about the relationship throughout the mid-1990s comes from a source who had intimate knowledge of bin Laden and his dealings. This source, according to CIA analysis, offered "the most credible information" on cooperation between bin Laden and Iraq.


This source's reports read almost like a diary. Specific dates of when bin Laden flew to various cities are included, as well as names of individuals he met. The source did not offer information on the substantive talks during the meetings. . . . There are not a great many reports in general on the relationship between bin Laden and Iraq because of the secrecy surrounding it. But when this source with close access provided a "window" into bin Laden's activities, bin Laden is seen as heavily involved with Iraq (and Iran).
Reporting from the early 1990s remains somewhat sketchy, though multiple sources place Hassan al-Turabi and Ayman al Zawahiri, bin Laden's current No. 2, at the center of the relationship. The reporting gets much more specific in the mid-1990s:


8. Reporting from a well placed source disclosed that bin Laden was receiving training on bomb making from the IIS's [Iraqi Intelligence Service] principal technical expert on making sophisticated explosives, Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed. Brigadier Salim was observed at bin Laden's farm in Khartoum in Sept.-Oct. 1995 and again in July 1996, in the company of the Director of Iraqi Intelligence, Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti.
9 . . . Bin Laden visited Doha, Qatar (17-19 Jan. 1996), staying at the residence of a member of the Qatari ruling family. He discussed the successful movement of explosives into Saudi Arabia, and operations targeted against U.S. and U.K. interests in Dammam, Dharan, and Khobar, using clandestine al Qaeda cells in Saudi Arabia. Upon his return, bin Laden met with Hijazi and Turabi, among others.

And later more reporting, from the same "well placed" source:


10. The Director of Iraqi Intelligence, Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti, met privately with bin Laden at his farm in Sudan in July 1996. Tikriti used an Iraqi delegation traveling to Khartoum to discuss bilateral cooperation as his "cover" for his own entry into Sudan to meet with bin Laden and Hassan al-Turabi. The Iraqi intelligence chief and two other IIS officers met at bin Laden's farm and discussed bin Laden's request for IIS technical assistance in: a) making letter and parcel bombs; b) making bombs which could be placed on aircraft and detonated by changes in barometric pressure; and c) making false passport [sic]. Bin Laden specifically requested that [Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed], Iraqi intelligence's premier explosives maker--especially skilled in making car bombs--remain with him in Sudan. The Iraqi intelligence chief instructed Salim to remain in Sudan with bin Laden as long as required.
The analysis of those events follows:


The time of the visit from the IIS director was a few weeks after the Khobar Towers bombing. The bombing came on the third anniversary of a U.S. [Tomahawk missile] strike on IIS HQ (retaliation for the attempted assassination of former President Bush in Kuwait) for which Iraqi officials explicitly threatened retaliation.

IN ADDITION TO THE CONTACTS CLUSTERED in the mid-1990s, intelligence reports detail a flurry of activities in early 1998 and again in December 1998. A "former senior Iraqi intelligence officer" reported that "the Iraqi intelligence service station in Pakistan was Baghdad's point of contact with al Qaeda. He also said bin Laden visited Baghdad in Jan. 1998 and met with Tariq Aziz."


11. According to sensitive reporting, Saddam personally sent Faruq Hijazi, IIS deputy director and later Iraqi ambassador to Turkey, to meet with bin Laden at least twice, first in Sudan and later in Afghanistan in 1999. . . .
14. According to a sensitive reporting [from] a "regular and reliable source," [Ayman al] Zawahiri, a senior al Qaeda operative, visited Baghdad and met with the Iraqi Vice President on 3 February 1998. The goal of the visit was to arrange for coordination between Iraq and bin Laden and establish camps in an-Nasiriyah and Iraqi Kurdistan under the leadership of Abdul Aziz.

That visit came as the Iraqis intensified their defiance of the U.N. inspection regime, known as UNSCOM, created by the cease-fire agreement following the Gulf War. UNSCOM demanded access to Saddam's presidential palaces that he refused to provide. As the tensions mounted, President Bill Clinton went to the Pentagon on February 18, 1998, and prepared the nation for war. He warned of "an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers, and organized international criminals" and said "there is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein."

The day after this speech, according to documents unearthed in April 2003 in the Iraqi Intelligence headquarters by journalists Mitch Potter and Inigo Gilmore, Hussein's intelligence service wrote a memo detailing coming meetings with a bin Laden representative traveling to Baghdad. Each reference to bin Laden had been covered by liquid paper that, when revealed, exposed a plan to increase cooperation between Iraq and al Qaeda. According to that memo, the IIS agreed to pay for "all the travel and hotel costs inside Iraq to gain the knowledge of the message from bin Laden and to convey to his envoy an oral message from us to bin Laden." The document set as the goal for the meeting a discussion of "the future of our relationship with him, bin Laden, and to achieve a direct meeting with him." The al Qaeda representative, the document went on to suggest, might provide "a way to maintain contacts with bin Laden."

Four days later, on February 23, 1998, bin Laden issued his now-famous fatwa on the plight of Iraq, published in the Arabic-language daily, al Quds al-Arabi: "For over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples." Bin Laden urged his followers to act: "The ruling to kill all Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."

Although war was temporarily averted by a last-minute deal brokered by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, tensions soon rose again. The standoff with Iraq came to a head in December 1998, when President Clinton launched Operation Desert Fox, a 70-hour bombing campaign that began on December 16 and ended three days later, on December 19, 1998.

According to press reports at the time, Faruq Hijazi, deputy director of Iraqi Intelligence, met with bin Laden in Afghanistan on December 21, 1998, to offer bin Laden safe haven in Iraq. CIA reporting in the memo to the Senate Intelligence Committee seems to confirm this meeting and relates two others.


15. A foreign government service reported that an Iraqi delegation, including at least two Iraqi intelligence officers formerly assigned to the Iraqi Embassy in Pakistan, met in late 1998 with bin Laden in Afghanistan.
16. According to CIA reporting, bin Laden and Zawahiri met with two Iraqi intelligence officers in Afghanistan in Dec. 1998.

17. . . . Iraq sent an intelligence officer to Afghanistan to seek closer ties to bin Laden and the Taliban in late 1998. The source reported that the Iraqi regime was trying to broaden its cooperation with al Qaeda. Iraq was looking to recruit Muslim "elements" to sabotage U.S. and U.K. interests. After a senior Iraqi intelligence officer met with Taliban leader [Mullah] Omar, arrangements were made for a series of meetings between the Iraqi intelligence officer and bin Laden in Pakistan. The source noted Faruq Hijazi was in Afghanistan in late 1998.

18. . . . Faruq Hijazi went to Afghanistan in 1999 along with several other Iraqi officials to meet with bin Laden. The source claimed that Hijazi would have met bin Laden only at Saddam's explicit direction.

An analysis that follows No. 18 provides additional context and an explanation of these reports:


Reporting entries #4, #11, #15, #16, #17, and #18, from different sources, corroborate each other and provide confirmation of meetings between al Qaeda operatives and Iraqi intelligence in Afghanistan and Pakistan. None of the reports have information on operational details or the purpose of such meetings. The covert nature of the relationship would indicate strict compartmentation [sic] of operations.
Information about connections between al Qaeda and Iraq was so widespread by early 1999 that it made its way into the mainstream press. A January 11, 1999, Newsweek story ran under this headline: "Saddam + Bin Laden?" The story cited an "Arab intelligence source" with knowledge of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. "According to this source, Saddam expected last month's American and British bombing campaign to go on much longer than it did. The dictator believed that as the attacks continued, indignation would grow in the Muslim world, making his terrorism offensive both harder to trace and more effective. With acts of terror contributing to chaos in the region, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait might feel less inclined to support Washington. Saddam's long-term strategy, according to several sources, is to bully or cajole Muslim countries into breaking the embargo against Iraq, without waiting for the United Nations to lift if formally."


INTELLIGENCE REPORTS about the nature of the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda from mid-1999 through 2003 are conflicting. One senior Iraqi intelligence officer in U.S. custody, Khalil Ibrahim Abdallah, "said that the last contact between the IIS and al Qaeda was in July 1999. Bin Laden wanted to meet with Saddam, he said. The guidance sent back from Saddam's office reportedly ordered Iraqi intelligence to refrain from any further contact with bin Laden and al Qaeda. The source opined that Saddam wanted to distance himself from al Qaeda."

The bulk of reporting on the relationship contradicts this claim. One report states that "in late 1999" al Qaeda set up a training camp in northern Iraq that "was operational as of 1999." Other reports suggest that the Iraqi regime contemplated several offers of safe haven to bin Laden throughout 1999.


23. . . . Iraqi officials were carefully considering offering safe haven to bin Laden and his closest collaborators in Nov. 1999. The source indicated the idea was put forward by the presumed head of Iraqi intelligence in Islamabad (Khalid Janaby) who in turn was in frequent contact and had good relations with bin Laden.
Some of the most intriguing intelligence concerns an Iraqi named Ahmed Hikmat Shakir:


24. According to sensitive reporting, a Malaysia-based Iraqi national (Shakir) facilitated the arrival of one of the Sept 11 hijackers for an operational meeting in Kuala Lumpur (Jan 2000). Sensitive reporting indicates Shakir's travel and contacts link him to a worldwide network of terrorists, including al Qaeda. Shakir worked at the Kuala Lumpur airport--a job he claimed to have obtained through an Iraqi embassy employee.
One of the men at that al Qaeda operational meeting in the Kuala Lumpur Hotel was Tawfiz al Atash, a top bin Laden lieutenant later identified as the mastermind of the October 12, 2000, attack on the USS Cole.


25. Investigation into the bombing of the USS Cole in October 2000 by al Qaeda revealed no specific Iraqi connections but according to the CIA, "fragmentary evidence points to possible Iraqi involvement."
26. During a custodial interview, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi [a senior al Qaeda operative] said he was told by an al Qaeda associate that he was tasked to travel to Iraq (1998) to establish a relationship with Iraqi intelligence to obtain poisons and gases training. After the USS Cole bombing in 2000, two al Qaeda operatives were sent to Iraq for CBW-related [Chemical and Biological Weapons] training beginning in Dec 2000. Iraqi intelligence was "encouraged" after the embassy and USS Cole bombings to provide this training.

The analysis of this report follows.


CIA maintains that Ibn al-Shaykh's timeline is consistent with other sensitive reporting indicating that bin Laden asked Iraq in 1998 for advanced weapons, including CBW and "poisons."
Additional reporting also calls into question the claim that relations between Iraq and al Qaeda cooled after mid-1999:

27. According to sensitive CIA reporting, . . . the Saudi National Guard went on a kingdom-wide state of alert in late Dec 2000 after learning Saddam agreed to assist al Qaeda in attacking U.S./U.K. interests in Saudi Arabia.

And then there is the alleged contact between lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague. The reporting on those links suggests not one meeting, but as many as four. What's more, the memo reveals potential financing of Atta's activities by Iraqi intelligence.





The Czech counterintelligence service reported that the Sept. 11 hijacker [Mohamed] Atta met with the former Iraqi intelligence chief in Prague, [Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir] al Ani, on several occasions. During one of these meetings, al Ani ordered the IIS finance officer to issue Atta funds from IIS financial holdings in the Prague office.
And the commentary:


CIA can confirm two Atta visits to Prague--in Dec. 1994 and in June 2000; data surrounding the other two--on 26 Oct 1999 and 9 April 2001--is complicated and sometimes contradictory and CIA and FBI cannot confirm Atta met with the IIS. Czech Interior Minister Stanislav Gross continues to stand by his information.
It's not just Gross who stands by the information. Five high-ranking members of the Czech government have publicly confirmed meetings between Atta and al Ani. The meeting that has gotten the most press attention--April 9, 2001--is also the most widely disputed. Even some of the most hawkish Bush administration officials are privately skeptical that Atta met al Ani on that occasion. They believe that reports of the alleged meeting, said to have taken place in public, outside the headquarters of the U.S.-financed Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, suggest a level of sloppiness that doesn't fit the pattern of previous high-level Iraq-al Qaeda contacts.

Whether or not that specific meeting occurred, the report by Czech counterintelligence that al Ani ordered the Iraqi Intelligence Service officer to provide IIS funds to Atta might help explain the lead hijacker's determination to reach Prague, despite significant obstacles, in the spring of
2000. (Note that the report stops short of confirming that the funds were transferred. It claims only that the IIS officer requested the transfer.) Recall that Atta flew to Prague from Germany on May 30, 2000, but was denied entry because he did not have a valid visa. Rather than simply return to Germany and fly directly to the United States, his ultimate destination, Atta took pains to get to Prague. After he was refused entry the first time, he traveled back to Germany, obtained the proper paperwork, and caught a bus back to Prague. He left for the United States the day after arriving in Prague for the second time.

Several reports indicate that the relationship between Saddam and bin Laden continued, even after the September 11 attacks:


31. An Oct. 2002 . . . report said al Qaeda and Iraq reached a secret agreement whereby Iraq would provide safe haven to al Qaeda members and provide them with money and weapons. The agreement reportedly prompted a large number of al Qaeda members to head to Iraq. The report also said that al Qaeda members involved in a fraudulent passport network for al Qaeda had been directed to procure 90 Iraqi and Syrian passports for al Qaeda personnel.
The analysis that accompanies that report indicates that the report fits the pattern of Iraq-al Qaeda collaboration:


References to procurement of false passports from Iraq and offers of safe haven previously have surfaced in CIA source reporting considered reliable. Intelligence reports to date have maintained that Iraqi support for al Qaeda usually involved providing training, obtaining passports, and offers of refuge. This report adds to that list by including weapons and money. This assistance would make sense in the aftermath of 9-11.
Colin Powell, in his February 5, 2003, presentation to the U.N. Security Council, revealed the activities of Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Reporting in the memo expands on Powell's case and might help explain some of the resistance the U.S. military is currently facing in Iraq.


37. Sensitive reporting indicates senior terrorist planner and close al Qaeda associate al Zarqawi has had an operational alliance with Iraqi officials. As of Oct. 2002, al Zarqawi maintained contacts with the IIS to procure weapons and explosives, including surface-to-air missiles from an IIS officer in Baghdad. According to sensitive reporting, al Zarqawi was setting up sleeper cells in Baghdad to be activated in case of a U.S. occupation of the city, suggesting his operational cooperation with the Iraqis may have deepened in recent months. Such cooperation could include IIS provision of a secure operating bases [sic] and steady access to arms and explosives in preparation for a possible U.S. invasion. Al Zarqawi's procurements from the Iraqis also could support al Qaeda operations against the U.S. or its allies elsewhere.
38. According to sensitive reporting, a contact with good access who does not have an established reporting record: An Iraqi intelligence service officer said that as of mid-March the IIS was providing weapons to al Qaeda members located in northern Iraq, including rocket propelled grenade (RPG)-18 launchers. According to IIS information, northern Iraq-based al Qaeda members believed that the U.S. intended to strike al Qaeda targets during an anticipated assault against Ansar al-Islam positions.

The memo further reported pre-war intelligence which "claimed that an Iraqi intelligence official, praising Ansar al-Islam, provided it with $100,000 and agreed to continue to give assistance."


CRITICS OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION have complained that Iraq-al Qaeda connections are a fantasy, trumped up by the warmongers at the White House to fit their preconceived notions about international terror; that links between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden have been routinely "exaggerated" for political purposes; that hawks "cherry-picked" bits of intelligence and tendentiously presented these to the American public.

Carl Levin, a senior member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, made those points as recently as November 9, in an appearance on "Fox News Sunday." Republicans on the committee, he complained, refuse to look at the administration's "exaggeration of intelligence."

Said Levin: "The question is whether or not they exaggerated intelligence in order to carry out their purpose, which was to make the case for going to war. Did we know, for instance, with certainty that there was any relationship between the Iraqis and the terrorists that were in Afghanistan, bin Laden? The administration said that there's a connection between those terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Iraq. Was there a basis for that?"

There was, as shown in the memo to the committee on which Levin serves. And much of the reporting comes from Clinton-era intelligence. Not that you would know this from Al Gore's recent public statements. Indeed, the former vice president claims to be privy to new "evidence" that the administration lied. In an August speech at New York University, Gore claimed: "The evidence now shows clearly that Saddam did not want to work with Osama bin Laden at all, much less give him weapons of mass destruction." Really?

One of the most interesting things to note about the 16-page memo is that it covers only a fraction of the evidence that will eventually be available to document the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. For one thing, both Saddam and bin Laden were desperate to keep their cooperation secret. (Remember, Iraqi intelligence used liquid paper on an internal intelligence document to conceal bin Laden's name.) For another, few people in the U.S. government are expressly looking for such links. There is no Iraq-al Qaeda equivalent of the CIA's 1,400-person Iraq Survey Group currently searching Iraq for weapons of mass destruction.

Instead, CIA and FBI officials are methodically reviewing Iraqi intelligence files that survived the three-week war last spring. These documents would cover several miles if laid end-to-end. And they are in Arabic. They include not only connections between bin Laden and Saddam, but also revolting details of the regime's long history of brutality. It will be a slow process.

So Feith's memo to the Senate Intelligence Committee is best viewed as sort of a "Cliff's Notes" version of the relationship. It contains the highlights, but it is far from exhaustive.

One example. The memo contains only one paragraph on Ahmed Hikmat Shakir, the Iraqi facilitator who escorted two September 11 hijackers through customs in Kuala Lumpur. U.S. intelligence agencies have extensive reporting on his activities before and after the September 11 hijacking. That they would include only this brief overview suggests the 16-page memo, extensive as it is, just skims the surface of the reporting on Iraq-al Qaeda connections.

Other intelligence reports indicate that Shakir whisked not one but two September 11 hijackers--Khalid al Midhar and Nawaq al Hamzi--through the passport and customs process upon their arrival in Kuala Lumpur on January 5, 2000. Shakir then traveled with the hijackers to the Kuala Lumpur Hotel where they met with Ramzi bin al Shibh, one of the masterminds of the September 11 plot. The meeting lasted three days. Shakir returned to work on January 9 and January 10, and never again.

Shakir got his airport job through a contact at the Iraqi Embassy. (Iraq routinely used its embassies as staging grounds for its intelligence operations; in some cases, more than half of the alleged "diplomats" were intelligence operatives.) The Iraqi embassy, not his employer, controlled Shakir's schedule. He was detained in Qatar on September 17, 2001. Authorities found in his possession contact information for terrorists involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the 1998 embassy bombings, the 2000 attack on the USS Cole, and the September 11 hijackings. The CIA had previous reporting that Shakir had received a phone call from the safe house where the 1993 World Trade Center attacks had been plotted.

The Qataris released Shakir shortly after his arrest. On October 21, 2001, he flew to Amman, Jordan, where he was to change planes to a flight to Baghdad. He didn't make that flight. Shakir was detained in Jordan for three months, where the CIA interrogated him. His interrogators concluded that Shakir had received extensive training in counter-interrogation techniques. Not long after he was detained, according to an official familiar with the intelligence, the Iraqi regime began to "pressure" Jordanian intelligence to release him. At the same time, Amnesty International complained that Shakir was being held without charge. The Jordanians released him on January 28, 2002, at which point he is believed to have fled back to Iraq.

Was Shakir an Iraqi agent? Does he provide a connection between Saddam Hussein and September 11? We don't know. We may someday find out.

But there can no longer be any serious argument about whether Saddam Hussein's Iraq worked with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda to plot against Americans.



Stephen F. Hayes is a staff writer at The Weekly Standard.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 10:47 pm
Took some doin', but I found that earlier article I mentioned. There are some striking cross-references, such as the mention in both pieces of liquid paper, or "White-Out", having been used to obscure sensitive names, and of coincident names and place references. Perhaps thats corroborative, perhaps it brings to question the provenance of the Weekly Standard article. I wonder what, if anything, will come of this. I note too that the Weekly Standard piece is getting lots of play in the conservative blogosphere, but I haven't noticed any mainstream media pickup as of yet.

Quote:
http://www.thestar.com/images/star/nav/star_banner.gif?GXHCThe Toronto Star


Apr. 26, 2003. 08:50 PM

Documents link Iraq, bin Laden
Star reporter finds terror chief's name in Iraqi dossier, covered with White-Out



TORONTO STAR STAFF

Top-secret Iraqi intelligence documents, unearthed by the Toronto Star in the bombed-out headquarters of the dreaded Mukhabarat intelligence service in Baghdad, have established the first clear link between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda organization.
The documents were found by correspondent Mitch Potter, the Star's Jerusalem bureau chief. Potter, who has been in and out of Iraq since the war began, was digging through the rubble of the Mukhabarat's Baghdad headquarters with his translator Amir when they uncovered the intelligence treasure trove.

Bin Laden's name appears three times in the handwritten Iraqi file, but each of the references was clumsily concealed with White-Out and then blackened with ink, "presumably by agents of the Mukhabarat," writes Potter, who was travelling with Amir and Inigo Gilmore of London's Sunday Telegraph.

In his dispatch, Potter details how his translator, sitting on the end of his hotel room bed today, carefully scraped away the White Out with a scalpel to reveal bin Laden's name hidden underneath.

And he writes of Amir's stunned reaction when the name became apparent: "It says Bin Laden! It says Bin Laden!" The full account will appear in tomorrow's Star.

The discovery of the document coincides with the Friday capture of Farouk Hijazi, an Iraqi spymaster the United States claims was the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Hijazi, according to U.S. allegations, met bin Laden prior to the Sept. 11 attacks during Hijazi's term as Iraq's ambassador to Turkey.

"The document in question is in every way possible entirely like the hundreds of others we've been poring over in our spare hours these many nights in the safety of our hotel room while intermittent gunfire pops away in the distance," Potter writes.

Spies from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, who scoured the building after it was bombed into rubble, apparently missed the document.

The presence of bin Laden's name on the document has been verified by four Arabic interpreters.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2003 11:37 pm
Kara wrote:
Quote:
Berlusconi said his support for the United States was partly motivated out of gratitude to the Americans who saved Europe from Nazism and Communism over the past century.

He called on Europe not to forget these sacrifices, saying it was necessary to show "loyalty."


Gelisgesti, I heard an interview on NPR the other week with a high-ranking French diplomat or official (I tuned in after the talk got underway) and he replied to critics who said the French were ungrateful after the US saved them in WWII. He said that the French will always be grateful to America -- he would himself, to his dying day -- but that the US had saved France so that the country could be free. It is now free to disagree, free to be its own self. There is no disloyalty in thinking for itself. They are two different things, he said. We will always love and thank the Americans. But we are free and must think for ourselves.

I see Iraq in this light. We "freed" the country (remains to be seen...) and what will happen if they pick a way we don't want them to go? The old conundrum: I saved your life. What do you owe me?



Hi B...

I would sum it up as 'Honor dies where interest lies' and there is a whole lota interest under that Iraqi dirt!
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 12:03 am
Timber, if such a document existed # 1 ... Bush would have it decophaged to his ass and parachute onto an aircraft carrier with his bare assed evidence showing and #2 ..... how does that square with Bush's admission on camera that there is no known linkage between Iraq and 9/11?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 12:25 am
Quoting from THE TRANSCRIPT of Under Secretary for Policy Douglas Feith remarks at the Council on Foreign Relations (Thursday, November 13, 2003) :
Quote:
[...]
We know the list of terrorist-sponsoring states with WMD programs - Iran, Syria, Libya and North Korea. Iraq used to be in that category but no longer is. Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, was a sadistic tyranny that developed and used weapons of mass destruction, launched aggressive attacks and wars against Iran, Kuwait, Israel and Saudi Arabia, and supported terrorists by providing them with safe harbor, funds, training and other help. It had defied a long list of legally binding U.N. Security Council resolutions. It undid the U.N. inspection regime of the 1990s. It eviscerated the economic sanctions regime and it shot virtually daily at the U.S. and British aircraft patrolling Iraq's northern and southern no-fly zones. In sum, containment of Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a hollow hope. The best information available from intelligence sources said that, one, Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons and was pursuing nuclear weapons; and, two, if Saddam Hussein obtained fissile material from outside Iraq as opposed to producing it indigenously, he could have had a nuclear weapons within a year. Those assessments, and most of the underlying information, were not recent products of the intelligence community. They were consistent with the intelligence that predated the administration of George W. Bush, and they were consistent with the intelligence from cooperative foreign services and with the United Nations' estimates of weapons unaccounted for. It was reasonable - indeed necessary - for the U.S. government to rely on the best information it had available. And while we haven't yet found, and may not find, stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons in Iraq, David Kay reports that the Iraq survey group has obtained corroborative evidence of Saddam's nuclear, chemical and biological programs, covert laboratories, advanced missile programs, and Iraq's program active right up to the start of the war to conceal WMD-related developments from the U.N. inspectors. The Iraqi dictator posed a serious threat. Given the nature of that threat, seen in light of our experience with the 9-11 surprise attack, and the crumbling one after another of the pillars of containment, it would have been risky in the extreme to have allowed him to remain in power for the indefinite future. Intelligence is never perfect, but that's not grounds for inaction in the face of the kind of information the President had about Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Saddam's demise has freed Iraqis of a tyrant, deprived terrorists of a financier and supporter, eliminated a threat to regional stability, taken Iraq off the list of rogue states with WMD programs, and created a new opportunity for free political institutions to arise in the Arab world. All of this serves our cause in the global war on terrorism.

[...]
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 12:41 am
Quote:
US War Dead in Iraq Exceeds Early Vietnam Years
Reuters

Thursday 13 November 2003

PHILADELPHIA - The U.S. death toll in Iraq has surpassed the number of American soldiers killed during the first three years of the Vietnam War, the brutal Cold War conflict that cast a shadow over U.S. affairs for more than a generation.

A Reuters analysis of Defense Department statistics showed on Thursday that the Vietnam War, which the Army says officially began on Dec. 11, 1961, produced a combined 392 fatal casualties from 1962 through 1964, when American troop levels in Indochina stood at just over 17,000.in Baghdad on Wednesday brought to 397 the tally of American dead in Iraq, where U.S. forces number about 130,000 troops -- the same number reached in Vietnam by October 1965.

The casualty count for Iraq apparently surpassed the Vietnam figure last Sunday, when a U.S. soldier killed in a rocket-propelled grenade attack south of Baghdad became the conflict's 393rd American casualty since Operation Iraqi Freedom began on March 20.

Larger still is the number of American casualties from the broader U.S. war on terrorism, which has produced 488 military deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Philippines, Southwest Asia and other locations.

Statistics from battle zones outside Iraq show that 91 soldiers have died since Oct. 7, 2001, as part of Operation Enduring Freedom, which President Bush launched against Afghanistan's former Taliban regime after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington killed 3,000 people.

The Bush administration has rejected comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam, which traumatized Americans a generation ago with a sad procession of military body bags and television footage of grim wartime cruelty.

Recent opinion polls show public support for the president eroding as he heads toward the 2004 election, partly because of public concern over the deadly cycle of guerrilla attacks and suicide bombings in Iraq.

On Thursday, heavy gunfire and explosions echoed across Baghdad as U.S. troops pounded rebel positions for a second night, and administration officials sought ways to accelerate a transfer of power to the Iraqi people.

U.S. COMBAT POWER

Because U.S. involvement in Vietnam increased gradually after the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954, there is little consensus on when the war in Southeast Asia began.

Some date the war to the late 1950s. Others say it began on Aug. 5, 1964, when Lyndon Johnson announced air strikes against North Vietnam in retaliation for a reported torpedo attack on a U.S. destroyer in the Gulf of Tonkin.

However, the Army's start date for the Vietnam War has been set by its Center of Military History as Dec. 11, 1961, when two helicopter companies consisting of 32 aircraft and 400 soldiers arrived in the country, an Army public affairs specialist said.

``It was the first major assemblage of U.S. combat power in Vietnam,'' explained Army historian Joe Webb.

Vietnam casualties, which amounted to 25 deaths from 1956 through 1961, climbed to 53 in 1962, 123 in 1963 and 216 in 1964, Pentagon statistics show.

At the time, the U.S. presence in Vietnam consisted mainly of military advisers. President John F. Kennedy increased their number from about 960 in 1961 to show Washington's commitment to containing communism.

But not until 1965, after Congress had approved the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, did Washington begin its massive escalation of the war effort. With a huge influx of soldiers, casualties in Vietnam soared to 1,926 in 1965 and peaked at 16,869 in 1968, the year of the Tet Offensive, data show.

In a major revision of U.S. military history in 1995, former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara said he believed the Gulf of Tonkin torpedo attack never occurred.

More than 58,000 U.S. military personnel died in Vietnam before the war ended in the mid-1970s.

In another comparison, British forces that created Iraq in the aftermath of World War One suffered 2,000 casualties from tribal reprisals, guerrilla attacks and a jihad proclaimed from the Shi'ite holy city of Kerbala, before conditions stabilized in 1921, according to U.S. military scholars.

Reuters included military deaths both on and off the battlefield for Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, for comparison with Vietnam War statistics that made no distinction between hostile and non-hostile casualties.

On Thursday, U.S. combat deaths totaled 270 for Iraq and 28 for other battle zones, including Afghanistan.


-------
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 02:04 am
Well, that does indicate that people die in combat, and as the number of combat personnel in an active war zone increases, casualties increase.

Quote:
From the D-Day Museum Website

How many Allied and German casualties were there on D-Day, and in the Battle of Normandy?

"Casualties" refers to all losses suffered by the armed forces: killed, wounded, missing in action (meaning that their bodies were not found) and prisoners of war. There is no "official" casualty figure for D-Day. Under the circumstances, accurate record keeping was very difficult. For example, some troops who were listed as missing may actually have landed in the wrong place, and have rejoined their parent unit only later.

In April and May 1944, the Allied air forces lost nearly 12,000 men and over 2,000 aircraft in operations which paved the way for D-Day.

Total Allied casualties on D-Day are estimated at 10,000, including 2500 dead. British casualties on D-Day have been estimated at approximately 2700. The Canadians lost 946 casualties. The US forces lost 6603 men. Note that the casualty figures for smaller units do not always add up to equal these overall figures exactly, however (this simply reflects the problems of obtaining accurate casualty statistics).

Casualties on the British beaches were roughly 1000 on Gold Beach and the same number on Sword Beach. The remainder of the British losses were amongst the airborne troops: some 600 were killed or wounded, and 600 more were missing; 100 glider pilots also became casualties. The losses of 3rd Canadian Division at Juno Beach have been given as 340 killed, 574 wounded and 47 taken prisoner.

The breakdown of US casualties was 1465 dead, 3184 wounded, 1928 missing and 26 captured. Of the total US figure, 2499 casualties were from the US airborne troops (238 of them being deaths). The casualties at Utah Beach were relatively light: 197, including 60 missing. However, the US 1st and 29th Divisions together suffered around 2000 casualties at Omaha Beach.

The total German casualties on D-Day are not known, but are estimated as being between 4000 and 9000 men.

Naval losses for June 1944 included 24 warships and 35 merchantmen or auxiliaries sunk, and a further 120 vessels damaged.

Over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or went missing during the Battle of Normandy. This figure includes over 209,000 Allied casualties, with nearly 37,000 dead amongst the ground forces and a further 16,714 deaths amongst the Allied air forces. Of the Allied casualties, 83,045 were from 21st Army Group (British, Canadian and Polish ground forces), 125,847 from the US ground forces. The losses of the German forces during the Battle of Normandy can only be estimated. Roughly 200,000 German troops were killed or wounded. The Allies also captured 200,000 prisoners of war (not included in the 425,000 total, above). During the fighting around the Falaise Pocket (August 1944) alone, the Germans suffered losses of around 90,000, including prisoners.

Today, twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles.

Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing. Thousands more fled their homes to escape the fighting.


At Pearl Harbor, US Dead numbered over 2400, nearly half from the Battleship Arizona alone. When HMS Hood was sunk by DKM Bismark, only 3 of her crew of 1415 survived, and those two appalling casualty figures both occurred in battles measured in minutes, not months. In 4 days, The USMC took over 3300 casualties at Tarawa in November of 1944, including over 1000 killed. Japanese lossess are estimated to have been somewhere around 25, 000, almost all killed. Fewer than 400 prisoners were taken.

So, what's your point?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 02:31 am
Breaking: 2 large explosions in Istanbul, in the vicinity of a downtown synagog; cause and casualties unknown, "Many ambulances and firetrucks, heavy smoke". nothing on the web or TV yet, just now hitting live-feed news tickers. If its anything, we'll surely hear more soon. I'm going to bed. G'night.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 02:58 am
It was against two synagoges (Neve-Shalom and Beth-Israel). 11 deaths until now, tv pictures came from CNN Türk shortly after the explosions happened at 08:30 GMT, showing people on stretches and a great crater.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 04:59 am
from timber's quote above
Quote:
The United States had spent 12 years providing the spine behind U.N. Security

What is this 'spine' thing? It keeps popping up in American nationalist rhetoric, all proud of itself, like an adolescent boner, and with an identical lack of brain.

"Resolute", the same. As if the word meant something self-evidently good. Never mind that a tatooed biker heading towards his wife to beat her with a motorcylce chain is 'resolved'.

These words ought to be expunged, and industrial strength Tide pumped into the mouths of all speakers guilty of their use. What would be the loss? America without a boner?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2003 06:23 am
From the article in the Standard:

Quote:
... CIA and FBI officials are methodically reviewing Iraqi intelligence files that survived the three-week war last spring. These documents would cover several miles if laid end-to-end. And they are in Arabic. They include not only connections between bin Laden and Saddam, but also revolting details of the regime's long history of brutality. It will be a slow process.
emphasis mine.

Uh. How do we know what's in them if they are still being reviewed? And why does no one address the issue that Potter and others were able to paw through the documents, even removing some of them to other locations, before those papers were secured? Yeah, I know, war is messy.

==
Speaking of messy, I have never been in favor of using body counts as reference points. They turn quickly into score cards without significance. Just because you are killing more of the enemy doesn't mean you are winning.
==
I do remember being about twelve, sitting on Stu Brown's front steps after delivering my Manchester Herald/Hartford Times paper route and reading that the 1ooth GI had been killed in a country called Viet Nam and saying "Where the hell is that?" I don't know what my point is here, I do know I have always grieved for the deaths of young men and women in faraway places and hoped for better leaders and times.
0 Replies
 
 

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