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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 08:21 pm
2nd
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 09:04 pm
Just reposting this e-mail----can't vouch for it's authenticity ---maybe some of you older folks can remember reading about this?



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 6:20 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients
Subject: It's deja vu all over again



The article, reproduced below, shows how remarkably similar circumstances in Iraq today are like those in Germany in August of 1945.

History repeating itself... Administration In Crisis Over Burgeoning Quagmire August 12, 1945

WASHINGTON DC (Reuters) President Truman, just a few months into his young presidency, is coming under increasing fire from some Congressional Republicans for what appears to be a deteriorating security situation in occupied Germany, with some calling for his removal from office.

Over three months after a formal declaration of an end to hostilities, the occupation is bogged down. Fanatical elements of the former Nazi regime who, in their zeal to liberate their nation from the foreign occupiers, call themselves members of the Werwolf (werewolves) continue to commit almost-daily acts of sabotage against Germany's already-ravaged infrastructure, and attack American troops. They have been laying road mines, poisoning food and water supplies, and setting various traps, often lethal, for the occupying forces.

It's not difficult to find antagonism and anti-Americanism among the population--many complain of the deprivation and lack of security. There are thousands of homeless refugees, and humanitarian efforts seem confused and inadequate.

In the wake of the budding disaster, some have called for more international participation in peacekeeping.

A Red Cross official said that, "...the German people will be more comfortable if their conquerors weren't now their overlords. It makes it difficult to argue that this wasn't an imperialistic war when the occupying troops in the western sector are exclusively American, British and French."

The administration, of course, claims that, given the chaos of the recent war, such a situation is to be expected, and that things will improve with time. As to the suggestion to internationalize the occupying forces, the administration had no official comment, but an unofficial one was a repetition of the quote from General McAuliffe, when asked to surrender in last winter's Battle of the Bulge--"Nuts."

In an attempt to minimize the situation, a White House spokesman pointed out that the casualties were extremely light, and militarily inconsequential, particularly when compared to the loss rates prior to VE Day. Also, the attacks seem to be dying down with each passing month. But this statement was leaped upon by some as heartless, trivializing the deaths and injuries of young American men.

Many critics back in Washington seem now to be prescient, with their previous warnings of just such an outcome a little over a year ago.

One congressman said that "...it's time to ask whether the German people are better off now than they were a few months ago. Yes, a brutal dictator has been deposed, but at least the electricity and water supply were mostly working, and the trains running on time. After years of killing them and destroying their infrastructure with American bombs, it seems to me that the German people have suffered enough without the chaos that our occupation, with its inadequate policing, is bringing."

It's not clear how much support the Werwolf has among the populace, who may be afraid to speak their true minds, given the fearfully overwhelming "Allied" presence in the country. But it is possible that, like the guerilla forces themselves, the people have been inspired by Propaganda Minister Josef Goebbels' pre-victory broadcasts, and those of Radio Werwolf.

"God has given up the protection of the people . . . Satan has taken command." Goebbels broadcast last spring. "We Werewolves consider it our supreme duty to kill, to kill and to kill, employing every cunning and wile in the darkness of the night, crawling, groping through towns and villages, like wolves, noiselessly, mysteriously."

While no new broadcasts of Goebbels' voice have been heard since early May,
no one can be certain as to whether he is alive or dead, and continuing to help orchestrate the attacks and boost morale among the forces for German liberation. As long as his fate, and more importantly, that of the former leader Adolf Hitler himself, remains unresolved, the prospects for pacifying the brutally conquered country may be dim.

Although Grand-Admiral Donitz made a radio announcement of Hitler's brave death in battle to the beleaguered German people on the evening of May 1, some doubt the veracity of that statement, and there has been no evidence to support it, or any body identified as the former Fuehrer's. Rumors of his whereabouts continue to abound, including reported sightings as far away as South America, and many still believe that he is hiding with the "Edelweiss" organization, with thousands of Wehrmacht troops, in a mountain stronghold near the Swiss border.

Many have criticized flawed intelligence for our failure to find him, causing some, in the runup to next year's congressional elections, to call for an investigation.

A staffer of one prominent Senator said, "For months, starting last fall, we were told by this administration that Hitler would make a last stand in a 'National Redoubt' in Bavaria. General Bradley diverted troops to the south and let the Russians take Berlin on the basis of this knowledge. But now we find out that there was no such place, and that Hitler was in Berlin all along. And now we're told that we can't even be sure of where he is, or whether he's alive or dead."

For many, marching in the streets with signs of "No Blood For Soviet Socialism," and "It's All About The Coal," this merely confirmed that the administration had other agendas than its stated one, and that the war was unjustified and unjustifiable.

General Bradley's staff has protested that this is an unfair criticism--that the strategic decision made by General Eisenhower was driven by many factors, of which Hitler's whereabouts was a minor one, but this hasn't silenced the critics, some of whom have bravely called for President Truman's impeachment, despite the fact that most of these decisions were made even before he became president in April.

But some have taken the criticism further, and say that failure to get Hitler means a failed war itself.

"Sure, it's nice to have released all those people from the concentration camps, but we were told we were going to war against Hitler, even though he'd done nothing to us," argued one concerned anti-war Senator. "Now they say that we have 'Victory in Europe,' but it seems to me that if they can't produce the man we supposedly went to war against, it's a pretty hollow victory. Without this man that they told us was such a great threat to America, how can even they claim that this war was justified?"
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 09:40 pm
That is really weird, but they say history repeats itself. How ironic! Never would have thought there would be any resemblance between Germany and Iraq.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 10:03 pm
Familiar with the term "flak?" Once again, percy, you have put something in without any attribution. What you do give is an email address. Who is BOLTTJT@aol,com? I clicked it, and came up with a new message form. That's one of the reasons it's so difficult to accept so much of what you say.

If you study this further, you will see that this is one of the later attempts by the Bush people to do a justification of the mess they've gotten us in. Condi Rice is pushing this very comparison hard right now, but Powell has abandoned it.

The Werewolves were a group, but the only mission they ever accomplished - before the end of the war - was the assassination of the mayor of Aachen. Otherwise - nada.

You surprise me, percy. There is so much information available, so easily, yet you don't seem to check out facts. All you have to do is look up Werewolves in google, and you'll get a lot of history.

But that's also the case with Fox and the New York Post. Checking facts, accurate information, fair and balanced news is not a strong point with them. That's one of the reasons they lost their case. When you care about what you're reading, or passing on to others, it would be honest and ethical, and intelligent, to make sure of what you say by checking first.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 10:08 pm
Alright, lets dissect this into probable and improbable.
Probable:
Quote:
Fanatical elements of the former Nazi regime who, in their zeal to liberate their nation from the foreign occupiers, call themselves members of the Werwolf (werewolves) continue to commit almost-daily acts of sabotage against Germany's already-ravaged infrastructure, and attack American troops. They have been laying road mines, poisoning food and water supplies, and setting various traps, often lethal, for the occupying forces.

Werwulf has been documented.

Quote:
It's not difficult to find antagonism and anti-Americanism among the population--many complain of the deprivation and lack of security. There are thousands of homeless refugees, and humanitarian efforts seem confused and inadequate.

In the wake of the budding disaster, some have called for more international participation in peacekeeping.

Two difficulties:
a) The occupation of post war Germany was a joint effort by France, Britain, Russia, and the US. Should the piece not speak of "anti-allied" sentiment?
b) "Peacekeeping" did not enter the lexicon until the aftermath of the 1967 Arab-ISraeli War.

Quote:
God has given up the protection of the people . . . Satan has taken command." Goebbels broadcast last spring. "

National Socialist ideology rejected Christianity in favour of "Aryan" mythology. Neither God or the Devil were welcome.

Quote:

A Red Cross official said that, "...the German people will be more comfortable if their conquerors weren't now their overlords. It makes it difficult to argue that this wasn't an imperialistic war when the occupying troops in the western sector are exclusively American, British and French.

See above comment for the national identities of the occupation forces. Also consider the atrocities commited by Soviet occupation troops. An actual article from 1945 (as opposed to a poorly executed falsification like this one) would have mentioned the Soviet forces.

Quote:
Rumors of his whereabouts continue to abound, including reported sightings as far away as South America, and many still believe that he is hiding with the "Edelweiss" organization, with thousands of Wehrmacht troops, in a mountain stronghold near the Swiss border.

Rumours of Nazi reconstitution of forces in South America did not begin until the mid 1950s.

Quote:
For many, marching in the streets with signs of "No Blood For Soviet Socialism," and "It's All About The Coal," this merely confirmed that the administration had other agendas than its stated one, and that the war was unjustified and unjustifiable.

Anachronistic language use like this does not aid your efforts.

Quote:
"Sure, it's nice to have released all those people from the concentration camps, but we were told we were going to war against Hitler, even though he'd done nothing to us," argued one concerned anti-war Senator. "Now they say that we have 'Victory in Europe,' but it seems to me that if they can't produce the man we supposedly went to war against, it's a pretty hollow victory. Without this man that they told us was such a great threat to America, how can even they claim that this war was justified?"

More anachronistic language. You are insulting our collective intelligence with this post.

I am not surprised that those on the right would endeavor to equate the war in Iraq with WWII, since they have appropriated 11th September as Pearl harbour. This amateurish attempt at what I hope was sarcasm shows the danger of acquiring one's knowledge of history from watching too many John Wayne movies.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 10:16 pm
Hobit - this is in the Bush play book. We'll know they're hitting bottom when they get to Grenada. What a grand and glorious story that was!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 10:23 pm
mamaj, Should have checked out [email protected] myself, but too lazy and/or too tired. However, hobit's detailed presentation that repudiates the statements presented by percy is very well done, and more convincing. It's vague enough with some truths for most of us 'old' folks to buy into these posts. Gotta be more careful in the future. percy does say he can't vouch for it's authenticity, and now we know he can't.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 10:27 pm
Quote:
percy does say he can't vouch for it's authenticity, and now we know he can't.
Which was probably part of a plan to shout rightoeously from the rooftops that we were atttacking him when the falsification was pointed out. Good grief! Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 11:13 pm
Type "Weapons of mass destruction" in the google.com search and click the "I'm Feeling Lucky" bar. Read the standard-looking error page CAREFULLY!
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 11:15 pm
Allright...its back up. I read he had taken it down for a while. Smile
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 11:19 pm
hobit, I'm very glad that people like you are on A2K to "protect" us naive old folks. Wink Thank ye.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 11:22 pm
Keine Probleme! Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 12:54 am
Thanks, hobitbob!


One of the most interesting differences is, IMHO, that the allies kept the German administration running - there were some hours of thinking, what seals, stamps, coat of arms could be used (solution: those of pre-WWI and/or Weimar Republic).
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 02:26 am
Quote:
Karl Rove has got to be nervous.

The man who last year advised Republican candidates to "focus on war" is finding out that the Bush doctrine of pre-emption cannot pre-empt anarchy.


MoDo in the NYT
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 06:41 am
This it?




These Weapons of Mass Destruction cannot be displayed
The weapons you are looking for are currently unavailable. The country might be experiencing technical difficulties, or you may need to adjust your weapons inspectors mandate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please try the following:

Click the Regime change button, or try again later.

If you are George Bush and typed the country's name in the address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly. (IRAQ).

To check your weapons inspector settings, click the UN menu, and then click Weapons Inspector Options. On the Security Council tab, click Consensus. The settings should match those provided by your government or NATO.
If the Security Council has enabled it, The United States of America can examine your country and automatically discover Weapons of Mass Destruction.
If you would like to use the CIA to try and discover them,
click Detect weapons
Some countries require 128 thousand troops to liberate them. Click the Panic menu and then click About US foreign policy to determine what regime they will install.
If you are an Old European Country trying to protect your interests, make sure your options are left wide open as long as possible. Click the Tools menu, and then click on League of Nations. On the Advanced tab, scroll to the Head in the Sand section and check settings for your exports to Iraq.
Click the Bomb button if you are Donald Rumsfeld.



Cannot find weapons or CIA Error
Iraqi Explorer
Get the WMD 404 T-shirt.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 07:28 am
French writer, intellectual, Bernard-Henri Lévy pursues the Daniel Pearl story:

...Most of the book, though, is reported on the ground. Mr. Lévy made five trips to Pakistan, two each to India, the United States and Britain, and one each to Bosnia and Dubai. And his conclusion is anything but fictional: that Pakistan's military secret service, the Inter-Services Intelligence, widely known as I.S.I., is deeply involved with both the Islamic fundamentalist groups responsible for Mr. Pearl's death and with Al Qaeda...
...More critically, as he advanced in his research, Mr. Lévy came to view the official Pakistani version that Mr. Sheikh acted alone as a cover-up for a far darker reality, one that placed Mr. Sheikh at the heart of a complex network of Islamic fundamentalist groups, many linked to the I.S.I. and Al Qaeda.
Less clear, Mr. Lévy admits, is why Mr. Pearl was killed. He nonetheless speculates that Mr. Pearl was pursuing evidence that Al Qaeda and North Korea were receiving nuclear secrets from Pakistani scientists with ties to the I.S.I. and fundamentalist groups. "In other words," Mr. Lévy writes, "I bet on a Daniel Pearl busy gathering proof of Pakistan's collusion between the leading rogue states and terrorist networks of the world."...
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/30/books/30BHL.html

And we know about the interrelationships of ISI with our intelligence services.

Has anyone noticed the media, in the past couple of weeks, touting a strong economic upturn? As a worried investor, I sure have, though I swear I'm not seeing anything to give us heart. Where's the job creation? Are we simply getting BS from the administration which the media are picking up? Will I have enough kibble to feed my latest investment (see photo)?

http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL203/985067/1830704/32896607.jpg
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 07:35 am
Hobit wrote:

Which was probably part of a plan to shout rightoeously from the rooftops that we were atttacking him when the falsification was pointed out. Good grief!

The bit about not being able to find Hitler made me doubt it. Laughing Laughing Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 07:41 am
Oh my Gawd, tartarin. Is that a cute puppy or what???

I don't always agree with Maureen Dowd but she is spot-on in today's NYTimes. Karl Rove should indeed be nervous.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 08:22 am
I dunno Kara. I get nervous when Karl gets nervous. I don't think he likes to remain nervous for long...
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 09:23 am
Tartarin, what is he/she? (why is ther not an "awwww" smiley?)
0 Replies
 
 

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