0
   

Hillary Clinton for President - 2008

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 05:42 pm
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So, NH broke the rule and now MI - who has a long history of rule-breaking on this issue - thinks that gives them the green light to do so also?

Nope.


New Hampshire getting a pass to ignore the reforms that were passed gives us a green light to wage warfare against the entire corrupt primary system.

Michigan needs to schedule their primary before thanksgiving next time.


It doesn't matter to me if you want to be irrelevant then, too. You don't have the power, or any sort of 'right,' to buck the schedule at will.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 05:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So, NH broke the rule and now MI - who has a long history of rule-breaking on this issue - thinks that gives them the green light to do so also?

Nope.


New Hampshire getting a pass to ignore the reforms that were passed gives us a green light to wage warfare against the entire corrupt primary system.

Michigan needs to schedule their primary before thanksgiving next time.


It doesn't matter to me if you want to be irrelevant then, too. You don't have the power, or any sort of 'right,' to buck the schedule at will.


Keep disenfranchising voters, and more and more of them will find a reason to vote for Republicans.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 06:20 pm
You want fair? The only way to go is to do away with caucasus which are controlled by a minority of people, take away the vote of politicians who control the democratic partys delegates and have every state vote at the same time instead of allowing certain states to vote at times most advantageous to certain politicians. Im not voting democratic for one of the few times in my life and until the democratics give me back the right to vote for who I want Im a republican. There may be more of me out there than you think.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 06:34 pm
rabel22 wrote:
You want fair? The only way to go is to do away with caucasus which are controlled by a minority of people, take away the vote of politicians who control the democratic partys delegates and have every state vote at the same time instead of allowing certain states to vote at times most advantageous to certain politicians. Im not voting democratic for one of the few times in my life and until the democratics give me back the right to vote for who I want Im a republican. There may be more of me out there than you think.


Caucuses are not controlled by a 'minority of people.' And I'd like to know which states were moved in order to benefit which candidates, exactly?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 06:35 pm
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So, NH broke the rule and now MI - who has a long history of rule-breaking on this issue - thinks that gives them the green light to do so also?

Nope.


New Hampshire getting a pass to ignore the reforms that were passed gives us a green light to wage warfare against the entire corrupt primary system.

Michigan needs to schedule their primary before thanksgiving next time.


It doesn't matter to me if you want to be irrelevant then, too. You don't have the power, or any sort of 'right,' to buck the schedule at will.


Keep disenfranchising voters, and more and more of them will find a reason to vote for Republicans.


Not a single voter was disenfranchised by the DNC's decision. Neither you nor any other voter enjoyed any inherent right to vote in any primary at all; no right was removed from you by that decision. You still have the perfect right to vote however you like in the upcoming elections.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 06:59 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So, NH broke the rule and now MI - who has a long history of rule-breaking on this issue - thinks that gives them the green light to do so also?

Nope.


New Hampshire getting a pass to ignore the reforms that were passed gives us a green light to wage warfare against the entire corrupt primary system.

Michigan needs to schedule their primary before thanksgiving next time.


It doesn't matter to me if you want to be irrelevant then, too. You don't have the power, or any sort of 'right,' to buck the schedule at will.


Keep disenfranchising voters, and more and more of them will find a reason to vote for Republicans.


Not a single voter was disenfranchised by the DNC's decision.


They are trying. Whether they succeed or not is up to the Credentials Committee.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
Neither you nor any other voter enjoyed any inherent right to vote in any primary at all; no right was removed from you by that decision.


What a great argument for voting for the Republicans in the general election.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
You still have the perfect right to vote however you like in the upcoming elections.


I'll be watching to see whether or not the Credentials Committee lets me be disenfranchised. And I'll vote accordingly in future general elections.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 07:14 pm
You're using the wrong word. 'Disenfranchisement' refers to removing your right to vote. It has legal meaning. But in this case, you didn't have a 'right' to vote for anything. You weren't disenfranchised, and neither was anyone else from FL or MI, because you never had any right to vote in the primary in the first place. This is the primary reason why both the lawsuits against the DNC went absolutely nowhere - no jurisdiction over matters of a private organization.

Now, we can say that you were morally offended (though I don't really think you were), and that you are going to vote Republican. But the interesting thing is, the Republicans voted to only recognize half of Michigan's votes as well. They've disenfranchised you as much as the Dems did. Are you willing to call them out on it as well?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 07:47 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You're using the wrong word. 'Disenfranchisement' refers to removing your right to vote. It has legal meaning. But in this case, you didn't have a 'right' to vote for anything. You weren't disenfranchised, and neither was anyone else from FL or MI, because you never had any right to vote in the primary in the first place. This is the primary reason why both the lawsuits against the DNC went absolutely nowhere - no jurisdiction over matters of a private organization.

Now, we can say that you were morally offended (though I don't really think you were), and that you are going to vote Republican.


I do not accept the proposition that I have no legal right to participate in the nomination process.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
But the interesting thing is, the Republicans voted to only recognize half of Michigan's votes as well. They've disenfranchised you as much as the Dems did. Are you willing to call them out on it as well?


What the Republicans did was nothing like what the Democrats did. The Republican primary in Michigan was reduced to 50%, but it was still allowed to have a respectable influence on the selection of the nominee.

The Michigan Democratic primary was never allowed to have any influence at all on the selection of the nominee.

If the Democrats had done as the Republicans did, I wouldn't feel a bit disenfranchised with a 50% reduction. But now the only thing I'm going to accept is full voting rights, with delegate apportionment based only on the results of the primary.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 07:56 pm
The delegate proportionment won't change from the current state, which was a compromise proposed by the Michigan Democratic party. So if that's what you truly believe, you ought to go ahead and decide to vote McCain. The only people who would argue for it to be changed are the MDP themselves, and they aren't going to argue against the compromise that they themselves put forth.

As for your belief that you have an inherent right to participate in a private organization's event,

Quote:
Florida Voter's Lawsuit Dismissed

By Krissah Williams
A federal judge in Tampa has again tossed out a lawsuit filed by a Florida political consultant angry that his vote in the state's Democratic primary will not count. Victor DiMaio's lawsuit contended that the Democratic National Committee is discriminating against Florida voters. DiMaio argued that party leaders unfairly allowed Nevada and South Carolina to hold their presidential primaries prior to February 5, in part because of the sizable minority populations in both states, but punished Florida and Michigan for skirting the rules.

"How do you ignore the fourth largest state in the nation and millions of Florida voters who exercised their right to vote?" DiMaio said in a statement before the ruling.

Judge Richard A. Lazzara agreed with the DNC, which said that it its practices are not discriminatory and political parties have a constitutional right to determine how delegates are selected in their nominating process. The party has stripped Florida and Michigan of all their delegates for bucking party rules and holding their primaries early.

The fight among over the delegates is set to continue this weekend when the Rules and Bylaws Committee of the DNC is scheduled to meet in Washington to hear appeals by Florida and Michigan. Supporters of both Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have planned protests.

DiMaio's suit is the third filed against the DNC over its decision to strip Florida of its convention delegates. U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and Rep. Alcee Hastings, both Democrats from Florida, filed a lawsuit that was dismissed in late 2007 and a Florida Democratic state senator filed a suit last week.

CNN is reporting that DiMaio is preparing to appeal to the Supreme Court.


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/28/florida_voters_lawsuit_dismiss.html

You did not have a legal right to vote in the Michigan Democratic primary election.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 08:10 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The delegate proportionment won't change from the current state, which was a compromise proposed by the Michigan Democratic party. So if that's what you truly believe, you ought to go ahead and decide to vote McCain. The only people who would argue for it to be changed are the MDP themselves, and they aren't going to argue against the compromise that they themselves put forth.


It isn't a matter of "voting for McCain". I was going to do that anyway because of Obama's horrid record on guns.

It is a matter of voting for every single Republican on the ballot, forever (or at least until I feel like forgiving this outrage -- which won't be anytime soon). That will include many Democrats I would otherwise have voted for.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
As for your belief that you have an inherent right to participate in a private organization's event,

Quote:
Florida Voter's Lawsuit Dismissed

By Krissah Williams
A federal judge in Tampa has again tossed out a lawsuit filed by a Florida political consultant angry that his vote in the state's Democratic primary will not count. Victor DiMaio's lawsuit contended that the Democratic National Committee is discriminating against Florida voters. DiMaio argued that party leaders unfairly allowed Nevada and South Carolina to hold their presidential primaries prior to February 5, in part because of the sizable minority populations in both states, but punished Florida and Michigan for skirting the rules.

"How do you ignore the fourth largest state in the nation and millions of Florida voters who exercised their right to vote?" DiMaio said in a statement before the ruling.

Judge Richard A. Lazzara agreed with the DNC, which said that it its practices are not discriminatory and political parties have a constitutional right to determine how delegates are selected in their nominating process. The party has stripped Florida and Michigan of all their delegates for bucking party rules and holding their primaries early.

The fight among over the delegates is set to continue this weekend when the Rules and Bylaws Committee of the DNC is scheduled to meet in Washington to hear appeals by Florida and Michigan. Supporters of both Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have planned protests.

DiMaio's suit is the third filed against the DNC over its decision to strip Florida of its convention delegates. U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and Rep. Alcee Hastings, both Democrats from Florida, filed a lawsuit that was dismissed in late 2007 and a Florida Democratic state senator filed a suit last week.

CNN is reporting that DiMaio is preparing to appeal to the Supreme Court.


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/28/florida_voters_lawsuit_dismiss.html

You did not have a legal right to vote in the Michigan Democratic primary election.


I refuse to accept the proposition that I have no right to participate in the nomination process.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 10:02 pm
So what? Nobody cares what you refuse. Legally your rights have not been violated.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 04:52 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So what? Nobody cares what you refuse. Legally your rights have not been violated.

Cycloptichorn


Your opposition to democracy is duly noted.

I know who to vote for if I end up disenfranchised.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 07:04 am
The Democratic caucus system just makes me laugh.

It reminds me of unions. Dated, wasteful, and pretty much out of touch.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 07:39 am
nimh wrote:
even Clinton supporters at the party rules committee rejected her demand to count both of the rogue primaries of Michigan and Florida in full, and not assign Obama a single delegate from Michigan. Instead, they used the allocation that the Michigan Democrats had been arguing for already for months (69/59), when they decided to halve the voting rights of these delegates. [..]

And make no mistake: this was already a compromise the rules committee opted for. The Obama campaign had argued for a 50/50 split of Michigan delegates, and apparently Donna Brazile said yesterday on ABC with George Stephanopoulos that he had the votes on the committee to get the 50/50 split. But he took the high road and compromised for the 69/59 split.

This is probably also what NBC's Chuck Todd was referring to when he wrote that during the extended luncheon meeting the committee broke for, "Florida was not a problem," but on Michigan "it looked as if the agreement they were going to come to was going to pass by a razor-thin, one or two person, majority, [so] they went back because they didn't want that. They wanted a closer show of unaninimity."

And that's how they got to the current solution. There was a majority for an even stricter rejection of Hillary's claims.


So what really happened at the meeting of the Rules and Bylaws Committee?

They broke for an extended, three-hour private lunch break after all. What was discussed?

Well, now we know.

The Obama camp came looking for a 50/50 split of Michigan delegates. After all, the DNC had decided previously to strip the state of its delegates if it would break the rules; it broke the rules anyway; changing the rules midway during the game would be cheating. And the Clinton campaign's Harold Ickes had voted for that decision himself.

Moreover, unlike in Florida, there was even just one major candidate on the ballot, making the result something very different from a fair reflection of the preferences of Michigan Democrats. There are many Dems in Michigan who stayed at home because their preferred candidate wasnt on the ballot and the DNC told them their vote wouldnt count anyway; you cant then fairly decide that the elections that went on regardless count anyway.

Now here's the crucial part: Obama's camp had the votes on the committee to approve its solution. But it didnt, because it wanted to seek a compromise to meet Hillary supporters halfway. This is what the committee's co-chair James Roosevelt says:

Quote:
Roosevelt said the Obama camp's proposal for Michigan was for a 50-50 split, and, "it was pretty clear the votes were there for the 50-50 split on Michigan, but they did not push for that," Roosevelt said. "I believe that the supporters of Obama on the committee believed that if Senator Clinton netted delegates out of Michigan there was a possibility of resolving this on an amicable basis," Roosevelt said.

So instead of pushing its own take through with a bare majority, Obama's people decided to go part of the way with the Michigan Democratic party's solution.

The Michigan Dems have been proposing for many weeks now to divide the delegates as follows: 69 for Hillary, 59 for Obama. These numbers are also based on the primary results, but take into account the ways they werent representative. They take into account that of the people who went to the polls, those who preferred Hillary could and did vote for her, while those who voted Uncommitted thus were basically voting 'not Hillary'. Moreover, they take into account that Hillary got more votes than she would have gotten if there had been serious opponents on the ballot. Regarding these same considerations, Roosevelt says, the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) also "took into account exit polling data and the fact that there were about 30,000 uncounted write-in ballots".

The result was a broad compromise. "[T]he Michigan Democratic Party, and a leading Clinton ally in the state, Governor Jennifer Granholm, as well as Senator Carl Levin, [..] all agreed" to the 69-59 split of Michigan delegates.

But the Clinton camp would absolutely not budge. Not just did it want 4 extra delegates for Clinton, to reflect the full percentage she got in her race against nobody; it did not want to assign any delegates to Obama at all. The rest of the delegates should remain uncommitted, so those could in their turn be divided up between Hillary and Obama - giving her a greater share of the state's vote than she even got against nobody in the actual primary. Roosevelt says the Clinton presidential campaign continued to dispute the attempt at compromise; and meanwhile Clinton partisans attending the meeting "booed and heckled frequently during the public, televised morning and evening sessions."

That was too much for even some of the committed Clinton supporters in the committee. And so, whereas earlier the assumption was that the meeting would draw into a second day, over two-thirds of the committee members sided with the compromise the same day. They went with a 69/59 division to best reflect the preferences of the Michigan Democrats and halved the vote of these delegates as sanction for the party breaking the primary rules. The Clinton camp's opposition to the motion was defeated by 19 to 8 votes.

In so many ways, the course of events at the RBC seem to illustrate exactly what went wrong with the Clinton campaign...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 07:42 am
oralloy wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
I am curious. Who is the last Democrat you voted for?

Jennifer Granholm, 2002.

Who has agreed with the current solution.

cjhsa wrote:
The Democratic caucus system just makes me laugh.

It reminds me of unions. Dated, wasteful, and pretty much out of touch.

You realise that the Republicans have caucuses too, right? The Republicans use the caucus system in no less than 17 states.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 07:45 am
Indeed.

And what is right about the Obama campaign...!

Not just the campaigns themselves but more general philosophies/ approaches of the two candidates.

I don't want to load this with too much meaning, but that's one of the central arguments about Obama vs. Hillary, right? Go into a negotiation in a positive, proactive way, trying to solve the problem -- or go into it in pure fighting mode, trying to will the opponents into submission.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 07:54 am
nimh wrote:
oralloy wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
I am curious. Who is the last Democrat you voted for?

Jennifer Granholm, 2002.

Who has agreed with the current solution.


I don't share that agreement. I will only accept having Michigan's delegates apportioned according to the will of Michigan's voters.

Having a revote would be fine with me. Otherwise, the January 15 primary.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 08:04 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

And this differs from Republicanism how?

I think that there are many issues where Dems disagree, but the general attitude towards aggressive, unprovoked warfare is decidedly a negative one amongst the vast majority of Democrats.

Cycloptichorn


Oh really? From WWI & WWII to Korea and Vietnam our involvements all started and nearly completed under Democrat presidents.


You have a good point on Vietnam, but we didn't exactly start aggressive wars in the other cases, did we?

The words 'aggressive, unprovoked' should really provide the context here..

Cycloptichorn


In WWI we had provocations from both the "Allies" and the Central Powers. The submarine warfare and diplomatic gaffes of the Germans got lots of media hype from British sympathizers, but the fact is that we also had long-standing disputes with Britain about freedom of the seas, which they violated systematically starting in 1914. More importantly, the then vast colonial empires of both the British and the French (which they were attempting to expand in the war) violated our long-standing policy on that vital issue. Finally their unprovoked aggression against the Ottoman Empire (which started at Gallipoli, early in 1915), and organized provocation of an Arab uprising, was a clear violation of our policy on that matter, and of course was the event that released the whirlwind which we are dealing with today.

Woodrow Wilson campaigned on a pledge to stay out of the war, and cynically violated it, covering up his duplicity and abandonment of our long-standing anti colonial policy with vaporous words about ''ending war forever'. Instead he merely set the stage for the Soviet revolution, WWII, The Cold War, and the Islamist resurgence with which we are dealing today.

Perhaps not "unprovoked" or "aggressive" in a strict literal sense, but stupid, aggressive, and contrary to our basic interests and long-standing policies in fundamental and real ways. Moreover utterly disastrous in its effects.

Same goes for Roosevelt in WWII. We knowingly provoked the war with Japan by cutting off their supplies of petroleum and steel, and did so in the context of deliberately conning the public into our entry in the European War against Nazi Germany. Certainly not much to admire in the Japanese empire in Southeast Asia, but then there was nothing to admire in the French, British, and Dutch empires that preceeded it in ALL of the lands the Japanese invaded.

By your strict definition, our entry into the War in Korea (under President Truman) was unprovoked, exactly as in Vietnam. In both cases we acted with the same motives -- namely to contain or limit Soviet expansion.

The realities of history involve some harsh lessons that don't really fit the neat taxonomy you appear to be applying in these matters.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 08:43 am
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So what? Nobody cares what you refuse. Legally your rights have not been violated.

Cycloptichorn


Your opposition to democracy is duly noted.

I know who to vote for if I end up disenfranchised.


If you are disenfranchised, by definition, you cannot vote. So your statement is truly ironic.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2008 02:26 pm
Prominent Hillary backer Dianne Feinstein calls it a day:

Quote:
Hillary Supporter Dianne Feinstein: The Race Is Over, Make Hillary Veep

One of Hillary's most prominent supporters, Senator Dianne Feinstein, minces no words in saying that the race is over:

    "I think after the campaigns are wrapped up today, it is in fact a moment of truth," Feinstein told CNN. "I think a decision has to be made about whether keeping this nomination wide open is in the best interest of winning in November. I do not believe that it is, and I'm a very strong supporter of Hillary being placed on ticket as a vice presidential candidate."
As noted below, in their private meeting yesterday uncommitted Senators discussed the idea of Hillary as veep. It's one thing for Hillary supporters like Feinstein to call for Obama to offer her a spot on the ticket. The real tell will be if prominent neutral parties call for the same in significant numbers.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 06/02/2025 at 07:17:35