Hillary Clinton for President - 2008

If you recall, Obama was asked to prove his blackness. Remember the headlines -- Is He Black Enough?

FreeDuck wrote:

If you recall, Obama was asked to prove his blackness. Remember the headlines -- Is He Black Enough?

WHO was this question directed at? Were the racist white people worried that he wasn't "black enough" (whatever that means)?

OR was it the bigots and racists within the black community who were asking these questions?

That is essentially what they are asking now. Whatever he is, for some people it will never be 'enough'. But I don't think there are enough people like that to keep him from winning.

FreeDuck wrote:

If you recall, Obama was asked to prove his blackness. Remember the headlines -- Is He Black Enough?

WHO was this question directed at? Were the racist white people worried that he wasn't "black enough" (whatever that means)?

OR was it the bigots and racists within the black community who were asking these questions?

FreeDuck wrote:

That is essentially what they are asking now. Whatever he is, for some people it will never be 'enough'. But I don't think there are enough people like that to keep him from winning.

I hope his loss is due to his politics. Somehow, I do not think that will be the case however. Racism is alive and well.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:

Do you think white people get a pass in today's society, or with the media?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway. I think white people, or maybe white male candidates, get the benefit of the doubt with the media. A white candidate would not be hounded into both rejecting and denouncing the verbal endorsement of someone they didn't know at all and whose words/ideas they had already publicly denounced. A white candidate would probably not be asked whether or not they agreed with Harry Belafonte's characterization of George Bush, especially if they didn't know Harry Belafonte. I think that a candidate who does not look like the typical white-anglo-male candidate will be asked to prove their loyalty and love of their country over and above one who does.

I couldn't disagree more.

If Colin Powell, Michael Steel, Kenneth Blackwell, Lynn Swann, Condy Rice, or any other black man or woman ran for President on the GOP ticket we can rest assured they will not be asked to prove their loyalty and love for this country. They may very well be asked to prove their blackness though.

If you recall, Obama was asked to prove his blackness. Remember the headlines -- Is He Black Enough? (Oddly enough, Colin Powell is the only other person that Tim Russert ever asked to comment on Belafonte's remarks.) But you raise a point -- if a black person were to run on the GOP ticket his patriotism is less likely to be questioned. Why is that?

A black Republican is unlikely to have his or her patriotism questioned, because, generally, Democrats have a bigger problem with an excess of patriotism, not a shortage, and Republicans are as likely to call a fellow Republican unpatriotic as a Democrat is to call one of their own a racist.

woiyo wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:

That is essentially what they are asking now. Whatever he is, for some people it will never be 'enough'. But I don't think there are enough people like that to keep him from winning.

I hope his loss is due to his politics. Somehow, I do not think that will be the case however. Racism is alive and well.

Yes it is. And, my fear for the man's life grows stronger every day as he inches closer to the nomination. There are a lot of crazy lunatics out there.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

If Colin Powell, Michael Steel, Kenneth Blackwell, Lynn Swann, Condy Rice, or any other black man or woman ran for President on the GOP ticket we can rest assured they will not be asked to prove their loyalty and love for this country.

I dont share your optimism. The fact that they're part of the Republican party themselves [dont know about Powell] will inoculate them to a significant extent to the worst of this "does he really love his country, who is he really, behind the facade, and can we trust him" stuff, for sure. Republicans are butch, after all, everyone knows that... but they'll still face more of it than any white Republican would, especially if they're only the moderate/pragmatic kind of Republican (Powell, Rice) rather than the true believer kind (Blackwell).

I do recall, and still find it very interesting how the question seemed to have disappeared so suddenly without Obama ever really answering it. My theory is that the question was answered by the real or perceived effort of the Clinton campaign to employ race, with negativity, in its strategy.

What I also found interesting was how the question seemed only to have been posed by blacks, whereas with Republican blacks, white liberals somehow find themselves qualified to ask the question too.

A black Republican is unlikely to have his or her patriotism questioned, because, generally, Democrats have a bigger problem with an excess of patriotism, not a shortage, and Republicans are as likely to call a fellow Republican unpatriotic as a Democrat is to call one of their own a racist.

Are you certain that factors like Obama's relationship (whatever it is) with Ayers and proclaimed close relationship with Rev Wright who has demonstrated that, even independently of "rare" overheated moments in his sermons, he isand has long been a committed believer in Black liberation theology didn't have a particularly strong influence in Obama's experience?

I know we disagree on this, but I believe that if Wright's radical beliefs had rubbed off in any meaningful way on Obama, we would have seen some evidence - hell, any kind of evidence - of that by now, in any of Obama's political actions, in either of his books, in any of his speeches, or in anything he has said or done over the past ten or fifteen years, basically.

I know: we've been here. Challenged with the question whether there is anything concrete Obama ever said or did that shows evidence that Wright's radical beliefs have significantly influenced him, all Okie and others came up with was stuff like not wearing a flag pin, while you at length insisted that there is just no possible way to know. Regardless of the fact that there is apparently nothing of note in anything Obama has said, written or done over the past ten years that reveals such an influence, and that his work and writings have in fact revealed an at length elaborated life philosophy that stands in direct contradiction with BLT beliefs on race, I know, you nevertheless maintain that there is still just no way for us to know how much his thinking is really influenced by Wright's postulations.

I consider this a little silly.

As for the question whether "Obama's relationship (whatever it is) with Ayers ... didnt have a particularly strong influence in Obama's experience" - considering that the only things they ever shared, apart from occasionally crossing paths at social occasions, was that they sat on the board of a charity together and that Ayers once hosted a fundraiser for him, yes, I'm pretty sure that his "relationship with Ayers" didnt have "a particularly strong influence" on him.

I mean jeez, George.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I do recall, and still find it very interesting how the question seemed to have disappeared so suddenly without Obama ever really answering it. My theory is that the question was answered by the real or perceived effort of the Clinton campaign to employ race, with negativity, in its strategy.

What I also found interesting was how the question seemed only to have been posed by blacks, whereas with Republican blacks, white liberals somehow find themselves qualified to ask the question too.

A black Republican is unlikely to have his or her patriotism questioned, because, generally, Democrats have a bigger problem with an excess of patriotism, not a shortage, and Republicans are as likely to call a fellow Republican unpatriotic as a Democrat is to call one of their own a racist.

I don't think any post of yours has ever confused me as much as this one. Firstly, are you saying that "is he black enough" is a question that Obama should or should have to answer? I've read the third paragraph three times now and don't think I quite understand you. I'll keep at it, though.

Compared to the other candidates, we have relatively little information with which to confirm Obama's assertions about his basic beliefs and intentions.

That inevitably makes things like the Wright relationship - by all appearances a significant one - and even the sustained long-term connection with Ayers in a foundation that targets neighborhood political action and organizers relatively significant. (the social relationship appears to have started with a courtesy call made by the candidate for state senate for political reasons.) If, on the other hand, these things are merely random things, indicative of nothing, it seems reasonable to expect we would also find some other long-term associations on the other side as counter-examples. However, none have arisen.

I think your own prejudices are showing here.

In the first place I was not arguing that Obama is certainly not quite what he has presented himself to be, but rather that Nimh's flat out dismissal of it without ANY consideration of the possibilities was itself a bit of bias in what he claimed was a dispassionate rational analysis.

You call McCain's record "confused" and evidence of frequent pandering -- a very odd description of a Senator who stood almost alone against his party for over four years on several critical issues - some of which did (and could have done) him no political good.

Frankly there isn't much to see in Obama's record in the Illinois Senate except a lot of "present" votes, in which he took no side at all. South Chicago politics are not exactly a pristine thing, and it is clear that Obama carefully aligned himself with the local political powers who were important to him.

Even if one were to suscribe to your rather odd "generational theory", do you suppose the views of any particular generation are necessarily superior and more valuable than any other?? Those are interesting class distinctions you are making -- do you apply similar things to other groups of people?? Just where does that logic lead you??

I just donated to her campaign...