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If Obama Wins

 
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:02 pm
Re: If Obama Wins
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
I will not complain..... if Hillary wins.... I will not crow.... If McCain wins.... I will keep silent.

I find that I no longer give a damn. People always need a dj and they usually pay cash.


Exactly-- People always need a dj. You've made it through the Bush years just fine, ay?

I also think it's a good idea to turn off the TV and the radio and not look at the paper for a while-- you may find some peace of mind. It's a feeding frenzy-- the bad economy, whose going to be prez, who murdered, raped and pillaged recently, etc.

A buttload of ill-will in the media.
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:24 pm
yeah... the news is currently only receiving a perfunctory glance from me....
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Gala
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:33 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
yeah... the news is currently only receiving a perfunctory glance from me....


Glad to hear it. If we were still in the days of the 3 networks... it's this 24 hour s*** that sucks the life out of you.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:47 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
real life wrote:
btw Cyclo, your references to 'my party' are funny. I am an Independent.


That's common amongst many of your kind these days Laughing

Cycloptichorn


I've been an Independent for decades.

My point is , I've supported centrist Democratic candidates. So have other Independents.

Why don't the Dems have any interest in promoting centrist candidates anymore?

You cannot make the case that either HillyBill or Obama represent centrist politics.

Wouldn't it make sense for YOUR party to put aside Liberal 'wish lists' and focus on reaching the middle?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:50 pm
real life wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
real life wrote:
btw Cyclo, your references to 'my party' are funny. I am an Independent.


That's common amongst many of your kind these days Laughing

Cycloptichorn


I've been an Independent for decades.

My point is , I've supported centrist Democratic candidates. So have other Independents.

Why don't the Dems have any interest in promoting centrist candidates anymore?

You cannot make the case that either HillyBill or Obama represent centrist politics.

Wouldn't it make sense for YOUR party to put aside Liberal 'wish lists' and focus on reaching the middle?


The right-wing has shifted the middle. We're going to shift it back for the next 8 years or so.

What do you define as 'centrist?' You seem to know what it isn't, can you tell me what you would consider to be centrist policies?

Cycloptichorn
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engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:51 pm
nimh wrote:
One is the presentation of Obama's side as the smart and educated one and Hillary supporters just being "the great unwashed".

This is the only board I routinely puruse so maybe I don't see a larger picture, but I thought the Clinton supporters were characterized as party insiders and older voters while Obama supporters were the young and idealistic. I think many people would rather be the latter than the former, but I've never heard of Clinton as the champion of the poor. I thought that was Edwards.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 01:54 pm
engineer wrote:
I've never heard of Clinton as the champion of the poor. I thought that was Edwards.

Well Edwards was definitely the politician who was the champion of the poor in his speeches, platform and overall campaign. He put that theme center front of everything.

With Hillary, it's not as clear in terms of substance. I do think that the reason she appeals to lower-income and -education Democrats while Obama sweeps the higher-income and -education voters is because she lays a stronger emphasis on bread-and-butter issues. With Obama, the prime emphasis more often lies on postmaterialist things like "changing the culture of Washington" or the like. But yeah, apart from health insurance there arent any great substantive differences that sets them apart in policy.

But then we werent talking about Hillary and Obama themselves, but about their supporters. Obama appeals disproportionally to the overlapping groups of the higher-educated and the well off, that's shown in most every poll out there. And it shows. It shows in how Obama supporters dominate the new media, but it also occasionally comes out in a kind of classist prejudice. Wherein Hillary supporters are put down as a kind of rubes, and their preference is typecast as some kind of irrational knee-jerk thing that, you know, the less informed are just more prone to. It's a distant echo, perhaps, of the way that prototypical coastal elite liberals caricaturise those "rednecks" who insist on voting Republicans - as in, you know, they must just be dumb. This one is much more subtle and much less pronounced, but the same flavour comes through sometimes. And that's one of the two main ways in which Obama's supporters have put me off.

Just my personal impression, of course.. but hey, she asked :wink:
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 01:56 pm
Quote:

With Hillary, it's not as clear in terms of substance. I do think that the reason she appeals to lower-income and -education Democrats while Obama sweeps the higher-income and -education voters is because she lays a stronger emphasis on bread-and-butter issues.


Or, massive name rec. versus new guy, or white vs. black.

Lots of possible reasons, not all based on policy.

Doesn't matter to me if you want to look at things like this as classism or elitism or any -ism.

Cycloptichorn
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 01:58 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
maporsche wrote:
nimh wrote:
that you'll also have a lot more brash, condescendingly agressive, smug and intolerant ones too, and those are the ones you tend to remember.. maybe. I dunno.


YES!


Just to be clear, you realize that nimh was talking about the really nasty pro-Hillary comments here right? Or do I have that wrong?

You have that wrong. Other way round.

Also, I already guessed that Maporsche would recognize everything I described.. perhaps Bear would too, and - sorry, cant think of the name - rabel? revel?
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Gala
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 02:00 pm
engineer wrote:
This is the only board I routinely puruse so maybe I don't see a larger picture, but I thought the Clinton supporters were characterized as party insiders and older voters while Obama supporters were the young and idealistic. I think many people would rather be the latter than the former, but I've never heard of Clinton as the champion of the poor. I thought that was Edwards.


The "characteristics" of a voter for whichever candidate is the thorn in my side.

Clinton: Less educated, black or white older women
Obama: College educated white women, young people

Endlessly repetitive.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 02:01 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
And as far as looking down their noses, is their anything more dismissive and condescending than implying that Obama supporters are cultish (read brainwashed)?

Hey, I actually support Obama as a candidate now. (Not that this includes anything practical of course, I mean, I'm in Hungary.) I think he's the better guy compared to Hillary. But yeah, I would probably have come round a lot sooner if it werent for the stuff I described about Obama's supporters. I know its irrational to be put off a candidate by his supporters, I mean he cant help it, but there you go.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 02:09 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Or, massive name rec. versus new guy

Yeah see, I think that those supporting Hillary on the whole damn well know why they do so. That its not a question of, "oh if they only just knew our guy better, surely they would come to see he's the better one".

Consider this: throughout the last month, the polling has shown a race in flux. But what's the flux? It's undecideds and those supporting a third candidate shifting en masse towards Obama. But Hillary's supporters are on the whole staying put. If you were right, wouldnt you see the Hillary supporters crossing over en masse too, now that Obama's blanketing the airwaves and dominating the news? Looks to me like he wins over the undecideds now that they learn more about him, but that Hillary supporters have enough reason of their own to support their woman to stay put.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lots of possible reasons, not all based on policy.

But I already said that there isnt much actual substantive policy stuff between them. But I do think there's a clear difference in the focus of their message, the emphasis they lay, the way they present it, the priorities they make.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 03:39 pm
nimh wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
And as far as looking down their noses, is their anything more dismissive and condescending than implying that Obama supporters are cultish (read brainwashed)?

Hey, I actually support Obama as a candidate now. (Not that this includes anything practical of course, I mean, I'm in Hungary.) I think he's the better guy compared to Hillary. But yeah, I would probably have come round a lot sooner if it werent for the stuff I described about Obama's supporters. I know its irrational to be put off a candidate by his supporters, I mean he cant help it, but there you go.


I don't think it's irrational, I just haven't seen the same kinds of things that you and maporsche have described. But like engineer, this is the only board I participate in and somewhat spottily at that. Clearly I'm missing something.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Feb, 2008 03:47 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
I don't think it's irrational, I just haven't seen the same kinds of things that you and maporsche have described.


Just to clarify, it's not that I don't think there are any obnoxious Obama supporters, it's that I don't see those people as being representative in any way of Obama supporters in general -- certainly not a sizable enough chunk. But I'm beating a dead horse.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2008 12:22 am
I am one of those who don't like Obama because I don't think he goes into specifics of his policies. And I do wonder why many of the younger more educated people dismiss persons who are 60 or 70 years of age as less educated. We may not have the formal education of the younger generations but experience is a better teacher than formal education. I associated with young collage educated people in a steel mill (long gone now) who weren't smart enough to wipe their own a-s but were willing to give me orders that cost the company I worked for thousands of dollars even though I warned them they were making a mistake. But being educated they dismissed me as not being educated enough to contradict them. Obama supporters.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2008 12:39 am
If only they had listened...

Damn those Obama supporters, way back when!

Cycloptichorn
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2008 12:59 am
Cyclo
I think your a really smart person but your reading comprehenson really sucks. Your post didn't even address the point of my post. Education as opposed to experience and the fact that some educated people reject out of hand people they regard as uneducated.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2008 06:54 am
Hey Rabel22, I already guessed that you'd share some of these feelings.. I just didnt get your name quite right!

nimh wrote:
Also, I already guessed that Maporsche would recognize everything I described.. perhaps Bear would too, and - sorry, cant think of the name - rabel? revel?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2008 08:35 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
snood wrote:
Blatham,

That thing you said about the Dem nominee likely becoming president - I sure wish I was as confident as you are about that.

I guess I just can't yet get over the habit of giving a lot of weight to those who would vote for anyone before a Dem, a woman (and another whole subset of those who wouldn't ever vote for Hillary), or a black.

My thinking has moved significantly since this whole quest by Obama began. Maybe it can move past fearing this particular red-eyed beast.


old friend

Unless something really weird happens, we've got the presidency (a black or a woman) and larger majorities in both houses. That's the high probability. Over in the right wing world, they know it too.


Blatham, old son, do you long to be called Skip, Cap or Coach? That was a nice little pep talk you gave snood, and just the tone I'd expect from a Progressive mentor. If he was on my team I might channeled George Patton, slapped his face and told him to stop crying, but then we're not big on empathy in our conference.

Maybe I don't reside in the Right Wing World, because I sure don't know that a Democratic victory in November is a done deal. I admit that it will be a close one (assuming McCain wins the nomination), but its way too soon to be getting so cocky. But hey, I know -- Coach has to show the team he believes.

You're not a cheater like Belichick are you?


Preferred pep-talk handle would be Turd Gipper.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2008 08:43 am
rabel22 wrote:
I am one of those who don't like Obama because I don't think he goes into specifics of his policies. And I do wonder why many of the younger more educated people dismiss persons who are 60 or 70 years of age as less educated. We may not have the formal education of the younger generations but experience is a better teacher than formal education. I associated with young collage educated people in a steel mill (long gone now) who weren't smart enough to wipe their own a-s but were willing to give me orders that cost the company I worked for thousands of dollars even though I warned them they were making a mistake. But being educated they dismissed me as not being educated enough to contradict them. Obama supporters.

I think all the candidates can claim to be well educated, so I don't think younger people are supporting Obama because they see him as educated. Nor is Obama that young. He's in his mid forties, putting him well within the spectrum of Presidential candidates, though young for this year's crowd. Ravel, you should call those you referred to above to see who they are voting for. My guess is that they are all firmly in the camp of ... Romney.
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