If Obama Wins

Ann coulter hasn't been the center of attention lately... that's what that's about...

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

real life wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
These three:

.....forcing women to register for the military draft is a centrist position...

.......support for homosexual marriage is a centrist position......

...... allowing illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses is a centrist position.....

Please remember that you are so far to the right, that everything looks left to you.

Cycloptichorn

On what basis, other than your opinion , do you claim that these are centrist positions?

Because they all are based upon the dual ideas of equality and pragmatism.

Cycloptichorn

'Because I think they are fair-minded concepts' doesn't equate with 'centrist'.

The idea of 'centrist' is that they would find a large degree of support in both political parties, i.e . the political center.

I know this is a concept that is not discussed in Berkeley much. But that is what the word actually means.

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real life wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
real life wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
These three:

.....forcing women to register for the military draft is a centrist position...

.......support for homosexual marriage is a centrist position......

...... allowing illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses is a centrist position.....

Please remember that you are so far to the right, that everything looks left to you.

Cycloptichorn

On what basis, other than your opinion , do you claim that these are centrist positions?

Because they all are based upon the dual ideas of equality and pragmatism.

Cycloptichorn

'Because I think they are fair-minded concepts' doesn't equate with 'centrist'.

The idea of 'centrist' is that they would find a large degree of support in both political parties, i.e . the political center.

I know this is a concept that is not discussed in Berkeley much. But that is what the word actually means.

I have no idea why my location matters. It's another stupid stereotype on your part. I moved here from Texas last year so my girl could attend graduate school.

Cycloptichorn

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snood wrote:

Blatham,

That thing you said about the Dem nominee likely becoming president - I sure wish I was as confident as you are about that.

I guess I just can't yet get over the habit of giving a lot of weight to those who would vote for anyone before a Dem, a woman (and another whole subset of those who wouldn't ever vote for Hillary), or a black.

My thinking has moved significantly since this whole quest by Obama began. Maybe it can move past fearing this particular red-eyed beast.

old friend

Unless something really weird happens, we've got the presidency (a black or a woman) and larger majorities in both houses. That's the high probability. Over in the right wing world, they know it too.

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Berkeley has been the main feature attraction of all the Talk Shows on the AM dial lately because of the city council's idea to remove/block the Marines recruitment center and treat it on the same basis, as they say, as a porn shop or sex offender, in that they can't be within a certain feet of a school or other public areas. Talk Radio is now all wound up and trying to get all federal monies removed from Berkeley in retaliation for treating the marines like sex offenders.

I'm pretty sure that's the not so subtle dig he's attempting to make by referring to it.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

These three:

Do you think forcing women to register for the military draft is a centrist position?

Do you think support for homosexual marriage is a centrist position?

Do you think allowing illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses is a centrist position?

Please remember that you are so far to the right, that everything looks left to you.

Cycloptichorn

If 57% of the nation is against same sex marriage (source) it doesn't seem accurate to describe the position as being "so far to the right."

I do think that a position supporting same sex civil unions which provide legal rights similar to those granted married couples can be considered centrist.

With 77% of Americans against allowing illegal immigrants to obtain driver licenses (source) it doesn't seem accurate to describe that position as being "so far right," and approval of the process is certainly not a centrist position. (BTW - Hillary Clinton does not support the position)

I haven't been able to find any recent or comprehensive poll results on the question of whether or not women should be required to register for the draft. 1945 over 70% of Americans favored women being drafted, but the thinking back then was that they would serve as nurses or administrative workers. In 2001 a poll of women in Montana found that about 52% of those polled believed that women should be required to register. We do know that between 70% and 80% of all Americans oppose reinstatement of the draft and perhaps this is why the question about whether women should be required to register hasn't been often asked.

In any case I can't find evidence of whether Clinton's position on this issue (shared by all of the Dem candidates) is a centrist or leftist one. Perhaps someone else can find the necessary info.

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blatham wrote:

snood wrote:
Blatham,

That thing you said about the Dem nominee likely becoming president - I sure wish I was as confident as you are about that.

I guess I just can't yet get over the habit of giving a lot of weight to those who would vote for anyone before a Dem, a woman (and another whole subset of those who wouldn't ever vote for Hillary), or a black.

My thinking has moved significantly since this whole quest by Obama began. Maybe it can move past fearing this particular red-eyed beast.

old friend

Unless something really weird happens, we've got the presidency (a black or a woman) and larger majorities in both houses. That's the high probability. Over in the right wing world, they know it too.

Blatham, old son, do you long to be called Skip, Cap or Coach? That was a nice little pep talk you gave snood, and just the tone I'd expect from a Progressive mentor. If he was on my team I might channeled George Patton, slapped his face and told him to stop crying, but then we're not big on empathy in our conference.

Maybe I don't reside in the Right Wing World, because I sure don't know that a Democratic victory in November is a done deal. I admit that it will be a close one (assuming McCain wins the nomination), but its way too soon to be getting so cocky. But hey, I know -- Coach has to show the team he believes.

You're not a cheater like Belichick are you?

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Blatham, why did you have to publically observe that Finn was being more mellow in his posts of late? Now he's out to prove you wrong. :wink:

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ebrown_p wrote:

maporsche wrote:
What a frustrating campaign.

I've realized today that I DO like Obama.

I do not like how his followers are acting.

It's a religious zeal, coupled with a willingness to overlook any perceived flaw in their candidate.

This is the same feeling that I had when I decided to leave christianity. There was too much unquestioning zeal and willingness to overlook facts in favor of beliefs.

Ma,

As a strong Obama supporter, I would like to know how to make you feel better about our attempts to get him elected.

You should understand that it is a political campaign (and not all zeal is inappropriate in this context). We realize that Obama is not divinely inspired and I don't think it is religious.

We do feel that he will be a great president, and is the best of the candidates. I personally am very excited about his candidacy.

What can we do to make you more comfortable?

There's not much you can do. It's not you that I'm referring too. There are other supporters on this board who have a "everything Clinton does is wrong" and "everything Obama does is right" attitude.

There are attacks on Clinton that are very similar to Republican attacks from years ago. I know you've seen it, and several republican posters have pointed out the hypocrisy here.

The vitriol is disturbing.

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Butrflynet wrote:

Blatham, why did you have to publically observe that Finn was being more mellow in his posts of late? Now he's out to prove you wrong. :wink:

It was nimh, but hey I'm still Mellow Man. Look at my most recent response to Cyclo.

The one aimed at blatham was a love bite.

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That's very similar to the arguments that Bush supporters make about his detractors: that instead of having factual and reasonable reasons not to like someone, the opponents must be irrational and driven by vitriol.

You're comfortable with this?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

That's very similar to the arguments that Bush supporters make about his detractors: that instead of having factual and reasonable reasons not to like someone, the opponents must be irrational and driven by vitriol.

You're comfortable with this?

Cycloptichorn

Those posters who relish in calling Bush names, mocking his speech and his chimplike appearance WERE vitriolic.

This is not much different than the personal attacks against Clinton's laugh, her showing of emotion, flat out calling her a liar, etc.

In reference to my other points.....tell me 3 things you don't like about Obama.

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maporsche wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's very similar to the arguments that Bush supporters make about his detractors: that instead of having factual and reasonable reasons not to like someone, the opponents must be irrational and driven by vitriol.

You're comfortable with this?

Cycloptichorn

Those posters who relish in calling Bush names, mocking his speech and his chimplike appearance WERE vitriolic.

This is not much different than the personal attacks against Clinton's laugh, her showing of emotion, flat out calling her a liar, etc.

In reference to my other points.....tell me 3 things you don't like about Obama.

1, I would be happier if he had waited till later to run for Prez. 4 or 8 more years of experience would have made him an unbeatable candidate, and I'm worried that he would be damaged from a loss to Hillary in the primaries.

2, I wish that he had a better record with the Excelon company in IL. I don't really have a problem with nuclear power, but I think that many Dems do and it's important to show that all of your actions have been above-board.

3, I think that Obama doesn't debate very well. He is disorganized on many of his points, and while he has a good emotional impact, he isn't as effective as others in getting a solid point across. If he had Hillary's debate skills, with his morality and plan, he'd be unbeatable by her.

I could list more if ya like. He isn't perfect, he isn't a messiah. But he makes me excited about the possibility of changing not only the party in charge of Washington, but in changing the whole way politics happen. We all want to see that; I think that Americans of all stripes agree that where we are today isn't where we want to be.

Maybe Obama won't be able to get it done. It's possible that his detractors are right and Washington will be so resistant to change that nothing is going to be much different. But goddamnit we are going to try. This matters to me.

Cycloptichorn

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Sorry, I meant to references to his policy positions. I know I didn't make that clear.

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maporsche wrote:

Sorry, I meant to references to his policy positions. I know I didn't make that clear.

No worries.

His policy positions are essentially the same as Clinton's. I don't really disagree with either of them on much of anything.

I've heard Obama talk about cutting taxes on the middle class, and even though that would be me, I cringe every time I hear it. I don't think it's fiscally responsible to be doing that at this time.

Cycloptichorn

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maporsche wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's very similar to the arguments that Bush supporters make about his detractors: that instead of having factual and reasonable reasons not to like someone, the opponents must be irrational and driven by vitriol.

You're comfortable with this?

Cycloptichorn

Those posters who relish in calling Bush names, mocking his speech and his chimplike appearance WERE vitriolic.

This is not much different than the personal attacks against Clinton's laugh, her showing of emotion, flat out calling her a liar, etc.

Good point. I'll have to keep it mind.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

real life wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
real life wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
These three:

.....forcing women to register for the military draft is a centrist position...

.......support for homosexual marriage is a centrist position......

...... allowing illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses is a centrist position.....

Please remember that you are so far to the right, that everything looks left to you.

Cycloptichorn

On what basis, other than your opinion , do you claim that these are centrist positions?

Because they all are based upon the dual ideas of equality and pragmatism.

Cycloptichorn

'Because I think they are fair-minded concepts' doesn't equate with 'centrist'.

The idea of 'centrist' is that they would find a large degree of support in both political parties, i.e . the political center.

I know this is a concept that is not discussed in Berkeley much. But that is what the word actually means.

I have no idea why my location matters. It's another stupid stereotype on your part. I moved here from Texas last year so my girl could attend graduate school.

Cycloptichorn

Well, lessee, from today's news..........

Quote:

from http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_8151578

Berkeley isn't exactly known for 'centrist' politics. Are you unaware of what's going on in your backyard?

Or just unaware that the things you've listed as 'centrist'............ aren't?

Can you show that these positions have broad support in the political center?

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I have nothing to do with either the Marines, the Code Pink protesters, or the City Council who voted to allow them to protest outside permanently.

What does any of that have to do with me? Specifically, please. Your argument is specious at best and downright idiotic at worst. I guarantee that there are people in your locality who have made decisions and done things which have nothing to do with you, or that you don't support whatsoever. Should you be blamed for where you happen to live?

Weak argument.

If Americans - and women who fought for equality especially - truly believe in our creeds, then applying the draft to women is only fair. They are not only just as capable as men at any task, they are Americans and owe our country the same service as men do.

If Americans truly believe that homosexuals are people who deserve rights equal to all other people, and I have no reason to believe that they do not believe this, then there is no reason why they should not have some sort of civil unions. It would add stability to their lives and be a net boon for society. There is no downside to society in this, as it has never been argued by anyone that homosexuals stop being gay, or stop engaging in whatever behaviors they like, due to lack of marriage rights.

If Americans believe that those who are here illegally should not be deported - and they consistently have shown that this what they believe - then we should find some way to document those that are here. Under every proposed plan, it will take some time for those who are here to become legal citizens, whether they have to pay fines, wait in line, learn English, whatever. If they are not to leave then the documentation serves to bind them to the laws of society. Cops will be able to tell who is who. Someone who rear-ends you can be held accountable. They can start paying taxes into the systems that they take advantage of. The licensing process will ensure that those who are here - who I will remind you are driving, every day, whether they are licensed or not - are better trained drivers. This increases safety for everyone.

---

These issues will not be defined by the right-wing forever. Your party has used the politics of fear and division for a long time. You're currently watching what that has gotten you: Minorities in the House and Senate which are only going to grow larger this year. An extremely likely loss in the WH. A huge shift in the amount of governors. In short, by this time next year the vast majority of those elected in America will likely be Democrats. The center isn't where you think it is any longer. Better get used to it.

If you like, I can show you opinion polling where Americans prefer Dem leadership on every political issue, even taxes, terrorism, and national defense. That alone should be proof enough that your views aren't even close to the center any longer.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

If Americans - and women who fought for equality especially - truly believe in our creeds, then applying the draft to women is only fair. They are not only just as capable as men at any task, they are Americans and owe our country the same service as men do.

If Americans truly believe that homosexuals are people who deserve rights equal to all other people, and I have no reason to believe that they do not believe this, then there is no reason why they should not have some sort of civil unions. It would add stability to their lives and be a net boon for society. There is no downside to society in this, as it has never been argued by anyone that homosexuals stop being gay, or stop engaging in whatever behaviors they like, due to lack of marriage rights.

If Americans believe that those who are here illegally should not be deported - and they consistently have shown that this what they believe - then we should find some way to document those that are here. Under every proposed plan, it will take some time for those who are here to become legal citizens, whether they have to pay fines, wait in line, learn English, whatever. If they are not to leave then the documentation serves to bind them to the laws of society. Cops will be able to tell who is who. Someone who rear-ends you can be held accountable. They can start paying taxes into the systems that they take advantage of. The licensing process will ensure that those who are here - who I will remind you are driving, every day, whether they are licensed or not - are better trained drivers. This increases safety for everyone.

Thanks for the sermon on what you think SHOULD be.

However, your view of what most Americans 'should' believe...........and what they actually DO believe are two different things.

I asked you to show that these positions actually ARE supported by the political center...............not why you think they SHOULD be.

Can you show that these positions ARE centrist?

No, you can't because they aren't.

Simple as that.

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btw Cyclo, your references to 'my party' are funny. I am an Independent.

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