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It's Gonna Get Ugly For Barack and Hillary

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 02:20 am
ebrown_p wrote:
I am confident that either Hillary or Obama will have a very energized, unified and committed Democratic base working to elect McCain (and end the war in Iraq).

I would prefer that this wraps up quickly.

But, the longer primary battle does keep the Democrats on the front pages much more.... if they are smart (and keep in mind they are both Democrats) this could even be an advantage.


If the super-delegates end up giving the nomination to Hillary there's going to be hell to pay.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 08:43 am
Finn... I think everyone in the Democratic party understands this.

There will be lots of pressure on the super delegates to side with candidate that the voters supported. If Obama has a majority of pledged delegates, I am almost certain the super delegates will follow suit.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 09:59 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Finn... I think everyone in the Democratic party understands this.

There will be lots of pressure on the super delegates to side with candidate that the voters supported. If Obama has a majority of pledged delegates, I am almost certain the super delegates will follow suit.


It would be nice if that happens, but why should they?
Many of the superdelegates are politicians in their own right,so they will most likely vote in a manner that helps their own political careers along, no matter what the voters want.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 10:04 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Finn... I think everyone in the Democratic party understands this.

There will be lots of pressure on the super delegates to side with candidate that the voters supported. If Obama has a majority of pledged delegates, I am almost certain the super delegates will follow suit.


We shall all see in the coming months. There will very likely also be a hard fought struggle over the seating & counting of delegates from Michigan and Florida. The late timing of the Democrat Convention creates additional complications - some of this stuff could end up in the courts about then.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 10:40 am
The democrat party is beginning to make me nervous. What business of the national party is it when the states have their primary or caucuses. The delegates should be seated if there has been a vote by the state. The national democratic party telling the individual states what to do is looking more and more like the republicans and their lock step government. And Obama is going to negotiate with the Republicans. Just as congress just did over the stimulus plan. Until he learns that some people don't negotiate he is going to be steamrolled and a very poor leader.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 10:45 am
bm
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 11:06 am
rabel22 wrote:
And Obama is going to negotiate with the Republicans. Just as congress just did over the stimulus plan. Until he learns that some people don't negotiate he is going to be steamrolled and a very poor leader.

Its called bipartisanship, rabel, wake up. Reaching across the aisle, and it isn't mean spirited like those meanie partisan Republicans. How long have we had to endure Democrats preaching bipartisanship and not being mean spirited and unfair, good grief, practice what you preach. Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 11:09 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
I am confident that either Hillary or Obama will have a very energized, unified and committed Democratic base working to elect McCain (and end the war in Iraq).

I would prefer that this wraps up quickly.

But, the longer primary battle does keep the Democrats on the front pages much more.... if they are smart (and keep in mind they are both Democrats) this could even be an advantage.


If the super-delegates end up giving the nomination to Hillary there's going to be hell to pay.

And if they don't, there will still be the same to pay, to Ms. Clinton and her royal husband, and their minions.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 11:33 am
Hillary thought she had the superdelegates in her pocket up until Teddy broke from the pack by going to Obama. Question of the day is how many will follow and how many FBI files did the Clintons keep 'just in case'?

Could be why Howard Dean is hinting the fix is already in for Hillary.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 11:39 am
Or the hints could be intended to incite enough coverage to keep the fix from happening.

Dean could just as easily be working to sway the super-delegates to match the popular vote, knowing that Obama is the more electable of the two.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 12:02 pm
JPB wrote:
Or the hints could be intended to incite enough coverage to keep the fix from happening.

Dean could just as easily be working to sway the super-delegates to match the popular vote, knowing that Obama is the more electable of the two.


That would take them to a brokered convention (something Dean absolutely does not want). It would also mean that some superdelegates that have endorsed Obama would have to vote for Clinton.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 12:15 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Finn... I think everyone in the Democratic party understands this.

There will be lots of pressure on the super delegates to side with candidate that the voters supported. If Obama has a majority of pledged delegates, I am almost certain the super delegates will follow suit.


Understanding it is one thing, resolving it is another.

Which of these two candidates is going to bow out rather than split the party?

The time is now for both of their ambitions.

Hillary doesn't want to wait four or twelve years, and she might be hard pressed to preserve her leadership status through such a long period of time. In addition, as superficial as it is, 12 years are much less kind to a woman than a man.

Obama can taste it. 2008 may be the perfect storm for him, and in some part of his mind he has to wonder if it can be repeated in four or twelve years. His sort of appeal of freshness, hope and vision is tough to maintain over 4 to 12 years of hard slogging politics, and that assumes he wins reelection.

Assuming the rest of the primaries play out to the scenario of no clear winner by the convention, Obama has to be leading in delegates, and that lead has to be large enough to overcome whatever delegates flow to Clinton when Florida and Michigan are reincorporated (and they will be) into the process. It probably also has to be large enough to overcome a majority of the super-delegates voting for Hillary.

If he has one delegate less than Hillary it's over for him and that is how it should be since this is the calculus he promotes.

On the other hand, Hillary has the super-delegate wild card. I saw one of these folks on TV last night and he was adamant that he will be voting for Clinton no matter how his state primary goes, and no matter who is in the lead going into the Convention.

I can understand why Obama supporters would be upset about an outcome that involved Hillary winning thanks to the super-delegates, and there could be court challenges, but the fact is that the Party created the super-delegates and gave them the freedom to vote however they wished. I doubt that the law is applied to party elections as it is applied to civil elections, and I suspect that the party by-laws will determine the outcome.

The super-delegate dilemma is yet another source of irony in this race. The proportional rule was adopted by the Democrats to address the possibility that a minority candidate might do very well nationally, but not well enough in more than one or two states. It at least created the appearance that the playing field had been levelled, but the Party leaders didn't want to take the chance that this rule could result in the nomination of someone like Jesse Jackson who would have no chance in the general election, and so they created the super-delegate failsafe.

How ironic would it be if these super-delegates deprive a black candidate, who has a real shot of winning the presidency, of the nomination and his chance to make history?

Ultimately, if it comes down to the super-delegates it is going to come down to seasoned political professionals who have forged alliances and incurred political debt over many years. Many of these super-delegates still have ongoing political careers. I would not hold my breath waiting for these folks to make their decision based on what is "fair," and they will be under pressure from both sides. Instead they will calculate how their vote effects their own career or honors alliances and pays off debts. If they see their careers being better of with Clinton than Obama, they will vote for Clinton.

This of course leads to another possible irony. Will "Above Politics" Obama find himself forced to cut deals with these super-delegates?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 03:54 pm
Finn,

The worst case scenario that you are salivating over is not very likely. It will be a big mess if the delegate counts are very close at the end of all the primaries.

We agree that if Hillary has more pledged delegates (i.e. delegates awarded by voters in primaries or caucuses) than Obama in May. Obama will almost certainly bow out with no hard feelings for everyone involved.

If Obama clearly has more pledged delegates than Hillary. She will end up dropping out because there is no way that superdelegates are going to overturn the will of the voters (this is where the pressure will come in). The Democratic leadership will talk to each superdelegate and then to the Clinton campaign to make it clear that Obama before the convention. This, by the way, is similar to the way that Romney dropped out.

So for the mess you envision to happen, the delegates have to be very close. This is mathematically unlikely for a couple of reasons--- the biggest of which is that as one candidate pulls ahead... the press narrative changes. Money starts flowing to one candidate and not the other, and the buzz favors one more than the other in the final contests.

I am confident that this contest will be finished by early May. It will probably be decided by Pennsylvania.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 02:42 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Finn,

The worst case scenario that you are salivating over is not very likely. It will be a big mess if the delegate counts are very close at the end of all the primaries.

We agree that if Hillary has more pledged delegates (i.e. delegates awarded by voters in primaries or caucuses) than Obama in May. Obama will almost certainly bow out with no hard feelings for everyone involved.

If Obama clearly has more pledged delegates than Hillary. She will end up dropping out because there is no way that superdelegates are going to overturn the will of the voters (this is where the pressure will come in). The Democratic leadership will talk to each superdelegate and then to the Clinton campaign to make it clear that Obama before the convention. This, by the way, is similar to the way that Romney dropped out.

So for the mess you envision to happen, the delegates have to be very close. This is mathematically unlikely for a couple of reasons--- the biggest of which is that as one candidate pulls ahead... the press narrative changes. Money starts flowing to one candidate and not the other, and the buzz favors one more than the other in the final contests.

I am confident that this contest will be finished by early May. It will probably be decided by Pennsylvania.


I'm not quite salivating ebrown, but I am looking forward to it. If you weren't personally invested in the outcome you would be too. Such an outcome is a the stuff of dreams for political junkies. That it will help the Republicans in the general elections is an excellent side benefit.

I'm glad that you're so confident e-brown. It means you won't find my musings on the possibility annoying. Right? Cool
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 07:16 am
You are correct Finn, but the way the Democrats will avoid a brokered convention is just as politically "interesting" but with a better result from my perspective.

I was amused by how well Huckabee (and even Romney) did yesterday.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 07:21 am
Pretty danged close to a Huckasweep.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 12:17 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
You are correct Finn, but the way the Democrats will avoid a brokered convention is just as politically "interesting" but with a better result from my perspective.

I was amused by how well Huckabee (and even Romney) did yesterday.


I was too
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 09:02 am
Fuckabee
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 09:12 am
Someone had to say it....
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nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2008 09:53 am
Quote:
Former Colorado Sen. Gary Hart, a Democratic strategist campaigning for Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, said he is almost certain the battle won't end until the convention. There are only three ways a floor fight can be avoided, Hart said.

"One is a massive swing of voters one way or the other, which I think is improbable. Second, a massive swing of superdelegates, which I think is equally improbable. Or a resolution of Michigan and Florida, which is improbable," Hart said. "So if you throw out those possibilities, you see that it is coming to the floor."

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8506703


I'm sure the media is hoping Hart is right about this.

And today, Al Sharpton is in Florida collecting signatures in order to sue the DNC should they decide to seat the delegates from the earlier election.
0 Replies
 
 

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