Some Hell/Death/Sin questions

Lords will be done
Our belief is that all things were created spiritually before they were created physically. In what we refer to as the 'preexistence' our spirits were all created by our Father in Heaven. The "Plan of Salvation" was proposed but Satan and those that followed him rejected it and they were cast out. Hanse Satan is a fallen angel but originally he was our brother. I don't know the Father's will in all things. I suspect some things that Satan did/does as well as some things we do, as we exercise our free agency, aggravate him. At least I know my kids do things that aggravate me.

I guess you can't pick your family you only get to pick your friends. Members of our Church and Non-members alike are my brothers and sisters each following the Lords will according to their own conscience. Hopefully doing the best they can. As for Satan, well I just avoid him where I can so it really doesn't come up as an issue but I suppose yes Hitler, Stalin, Jack the Ripper are all part of the brotherhood of man just not a part I like to lay claim to. The terrorist so often mentioned on the posts here are doing their best to follow what they belive to be the will of the lord and though I disagree with them they're my brothers too.

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Hey, how come I check/correct the spelling but after I post it goes back to my draft version??

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As per the original question about sin/death/hell...

The answer is always going to be clouded by the fact that those who ascribe to religion consider their individual sources (and their individual interpretations) to be credible and absolute. The problem is, if you polled 100 members of a congregation in the same church about the same question, they would all have widely varying opinions; each of which would be based on a conglomeration of their own interpretation of contradictory scripture and biased by the education they received from ministers. Rarely do people in this day and age use their own minds, instead relying on the persuasion of millions of others.

So you have everyone who has their own individual faith that they're right, combined with the anonymity of the forum environment... yeah, its hard to get straight dope. All we're doing is condensing eons of religious debate into one thread.

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Don't you feel the same way about your sources?

Why do some of you keep saying things that amount to "we believers do not think for ourselves"? Do you realize that most freethinkers, non-believers, etc (from my experience) state the same things, as the very same questions and give the very same answers as each other? Where did you (general) get it from? Did it just pop into your head? Or did you hear it or read it somewhere and then decide for yourself how you felt about the information?

Do not assume that I don't think or that I don't read or that I don't learn merely because I do not view things as you do. That "you" applies to whomever it applies to.

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Arella, It seems that only the Mormon cult believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Scripture clearly disputes this and makes it verly clear that Satan was, in no way, a brother to Jesus. Or us for that matter. He does, however try to prod us at every opportunity.

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Uffda wrote:

Hey, how come I check/correct the spelling but after I post it goes back to my draft version??

You need to click OK for the changes to be accepted.

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Intrepid wrote:

Arella, It seems that only the Mormon cult believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Scripture clearly disputes this and makes it verly clear that Satan was, in no way, a brother to Jesus. Or us for that matter. He does, however try to prod us at every opportunity.

I completely agree. I was talking to a gentleman in a Christian Chatroom and knew he was LDS. I flat out asked him if this is what he believed. He danced all around it. He never would give me a straight yes or no answer. When he told me to read it in The Book of Moses I ended the convo. :wink:

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Here's a response I found on another site.

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So let's go to the definition of "brother". As I see it, brothers are humans (and non-human beings) that have a common parent, either a father or a mother or both. What do we see here? God is the father of all. That would certainly make Jesus and the Devil brothers. In fact, it makes all of us brothers, even women. It does not say so, but I would certainly take it from this passage that Satan was a son of God. Since both Jesus and Satan are sons of God, Jesus and Satan are brothers.

I don't see what all the hoopla is about. From the Christians I know, it seems that Christians in general believe that God is the father of all. This makes the statement "Jesus and Satan are brothers" a trite tautology. So I don't see what all it's all about...........

But take another look at the religions of both Huckabee and Romney. Their beliefs imply that God is Satan! Here is the proof: God created everything, so God created Satan. Satan is evil. Creation of an evil entity is itself an evil act (for example, Hitler creating Auschwitz). Therefore, God is evil. Since God is the Supreme Being, he is the Supreme Being of Evil. Therefore, God is Satan. But let anyone in the Presidential race try to say that. But it's what their religions imply.

We can go one step further. God created Satan. God is Satan. Therefore, God created himself, which is a contradiction. Nothing can create itself. That says that all this is make-believe, that there is no God or Satan, and that if Jesus existed, he was a human being just like the rest of us.

http://beyondgod.blogspot.com/2007/12/jesus-and-devil-brothers.html

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I can agree up to a point on we are all brothers because we are creations of God. However, Jesus Himself called people (paraprhasing) sons of the devil or you are of your father the devil. Xingu what you posted where it "is implied God is satan" is exactly where I have a problem with calling satan a brother in any way, shape, or form.

So I guess what really needs to be defined is are we talking biological siblings or spiritual?

I am trying to find clarification on this from anyone within the LDS faith. I have seen documentaries on the LDS faith but I believe there are few documentaries out there about religion that tell the whole story.

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Opposition in all things
In ref to the post from another site I don't agree with the supposition that if God created Evil (or allowed evil to be created) he is therefore an evil god. We believe opposition is necessary for our growth. I don't think God made a mistake when he allowed Satan into our world.

I'm reminded of the Darwin 'monkey trials' where the prosecutor said maybe 'you're related to a monkey but not me'. (Just for the record Darwin never said we were evolved from the monkeys but that mankind and monkeys were evolved from a common source.)

We believe we are punished for our own sins and not Adam's transgressions. If I trace back my family tree I'm pretty sure there would be good and bad people... (or people who did good and bad things) it's kind of what the world is full of. If the good lord wanted to make me from a monkey's butt or a handful of clay.. I really don't care. The sins of the father are passed down to the son but I think that's in terms of consequences. If my father was abusive I would probably have a problem with that (fortunately for me he wasn't). My grandfather was abusive to my mother but my mother 'broke the cycle'.

I just need to work on being the best man I can be; not for hope of an eternal reward but for my own growth. Before you ask, no I often fall short. So this is our 'cult' of people trying to do what is right? I guess I can live with that. Does the label make you feel superior? We're a cult of people who believe Jesus is the Christ. The only begotten of God the father and he died on the cross, taking on himself our sins. He is my brother and my saviour. We believe in baptism as Christ taught it. We believe in God the Eternal Father, his son Jesus Christ and the holy ghost. We believe all men should be granted freedom of religion to worship as they may. What do you believe and why do you think Mormonism is a cult? The belief that God created Heaven and the Earth and all things therein is your definition of a cult? Satan's geneology? I don't care. He was cast out by the father. I want nothing to do with him but I believe he's real. I think his greatest lie is that he doesn't exist.

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If God is all-knowing than he deliberately created something evil. If he made a mistake he's not God; he's fiction. All-knowing Gods don't make mistakes. Humans do. Humans are not all-knowing; although some Creationist like to think they are.

This is a problem with me and the Bible. People who made this God like to say he is all-knowing, all-powerful, all love, all wise and all just. But reading the Bible shows us an ignorant God who can't see what's coming up and has only one way to react to problems; kill people.

There's no sense to the Bible or its God. However God of the Bible makes perfect sense if we see him as a myth or device used by a tribe or culture for control and identity purposes.

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He created people with free will. WE make the choices to either do right or wrong. He could have made us all robots that is for sure. Fact is, He didn't. He gave us a free will to make choices.

Uffda, my Jesus doesn't need another testament. There is but one. Joseph Smith gave the "Another Testament".

It has nothing to do with being a good person. Works do not get you into heaven. By grace, through faith we are saved.

I know why I believe Mormonism is a cult. Because you follow Joseph Smith and not Jesus exclusively. At least that is my understanding of Mormonism.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Uffda, my Jesus doesn't need another testament. There is but one. Joseph Smith gave the "Another Testament".

Umm, what do you call the NEW testament, if not another testament?

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It has nothing to do with being a good person. Works do not get you into heaven. By grace, through faith we are saved.

There is no shortage of scripture to argue against that point.

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I know why I believe Mormonism is a cult. Because you follow Joseph Smith and not Jesus exclusively. At least that is my understanding of Mormonism.

Please explain how Joseph Smith is any different than Paul.

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xingu wrote:

If God is all-knowing than he deliberately created something evil. If he made a mistake he's not God; he's fiction. All-knowing Gods don't make mistakes. Humans do. Humans are not all-knowing; although some Creationist like to think they are..

While I respect the atheist viewpoint (there really is no "proof" that god exists) I have to take exception to this line of reasoning. It assumes that evil exists.

Your argument states that God cannot exist because all-knowing gods would have to have created evil. If evil doesn't exist, your argument doesn't hold water. Especially since; your argument requires that you believe in satan (evil) but not god.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Don't you feel the same way about your sources?

Of course. Its true of all spiritual sources. I'm not saying that all sources are credible, but I am saying (no offense intended) that the bible has to be the least credible source ever created. I can't understand how anyone who TRULY thinks for themselves with any hint of intelligence could possibly even vaguely believe a book that is so intensely contradictory. If you opened a 5th grade math book and it said on the first page that 1+1=1, it would be instantly discredited, but if it followed with "god said so" there would be millions who praise it as truth.

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Why do some of you keep saying things that amount to "we believers do not think for ourselves"? Do you realize that most freethinkers, non-believers, etc (from my experience) state the same things, as the very same questions and give the very same answers as each other? Where did you (general) get it from? Did it just pop into your head? Or did you hear it or read it somewhere and then decide for yourself how you felt about the information?

I say that anytime someone talks about being intelligent AND believing that the bible is true. Again, not meaning any offense as I'm speaking generally, not to anyone specific. Those who believe that 1+1=1 as a fundamental truth cannot claim to have thought it through for themselves intelligently without making me laugh.

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Do not assume that I don't think or that I don't read or that I don't learn merely because I do not view things as you do. That "you" applies to whomever it applies to.

I don't... I am simply pointing out that all of the contradictory assumptions about god based on the bible make your argument indefensible; not your beliefs.

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Umm, what do you call the NEW testament, if not another testament

Mesquite, the new testament is not another testament. The whole bible centers on Christ. The old testament is filled with prophecies of Christ. THe jews of the ot waited for the Messiah, they spoke of him and worshipped him. The nt is just the fulfillment of God's promise of a Messiah and a new covenant.

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It has nothing to do with being a good person. Works do not get you into heaven. By grace, through faith we are saved.

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There is no shortage of scripture to argue against that point.

please give some bc arella is actually quoting scripture (Ephesians 2:8) and sorry for the butchering of y'alls quotes.

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Please explain how Joseph Smith is any different than Paul.

you have got to be kidding??!!

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The bible is a collection of books assembled well after Christ's death and resurrection. So is the book of Mormon. A testament for Christ is simply a witness (or testimony) to the divinity of Christ. Each book would be a separate testament. We don't worship Joseph Smith any more than you worship Peter or Paul. We believe Joseph Smith was a prophet testifing of Christ as did Peter and Paul in their time. Depending on which bible you use King James, Standard Revised, Catholic or modern revisions (Good News etc.) you may even have different books in your bible. (We use the King James)

I guess your question would be of modern-day revelation. If you believe God could talk to ancient prophets Abraham, Moses, Peter, Paul.. fill in your favorites, could he talk to a prophet today? Is there any reason to believe he lost the ability or he cared more for people before the birth of Christ? If he could, is there any reason to believe he wouldn't. I don't think we necessarily received all the clarification we could ever use dealing with 'modern problems'.

I don't think a loving Father takes the tone of 'I already told you once Iso 'm not telling you again!' We believe in prayer and that the Lord answers prayers. Sometimes we don't listen and sometimes the answer's no. I'll admit I don't always listen. I don't believe the Lord would give me directions for how you should live your life but he might push me in right direction for me. He may help me to help my family or a loved one. That's modern day revelation. What if the Lord wanted to direct us all to... stop eating fish on Friday, whatever. In ancient days he would talk to the head of his church Moses or Peter. I suppose if I were Catholic I would expect him to talk to the Pope. I'm Mormon so I'll listen to our Prophet. I wouldn't say we worship Abraham, Moses, Isiah, Paul, Peter, James or John but we revere these men.

I'm not trying to tell you what to believe. I am just trying to explain what I believe and explain my thought process.

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Kate4Christ wrote:

you have got to be kidding??!!

I want to know as well... its a perfectly valid question. Every biblical figure except god was human. Who are you to judge which human is more credible than the next? I'd like an answer as well... Explain how Joseph Smith is any different than Paul.

Its this kind of judgementalism that pervades not only the elitism of organized religion, but the very foundation for why it is so stuck. Christianity (like many religions) came about by wildly radical thought by someone who was believed to be the divine son of god born of a virgin. Just because its old, you place more value on it. If a NEW saviour came along, would you radically follow him or her? Probably not, because you assume that an ancient radical movement has greater credibility than a new one.

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There ya go Curtis, proving my point exactly. You think because I don't come to the same conclusions about the Bible as you do that I just don't think?

[quote]I can't understand how anyone who TRULY thinks for themselves with any hint of intelligence could possibly even vaguely believe a book that is so intensely contradictory.[/quote]

That statement doesn't just imply that I don't think. It flat out states it. I can't learn a lot from a person who makes statements like that. Except how NOT to use demeaning words because someone is different.

It's no different than a political issue, voting for a politician, being on a jury, etc. Not every single person is going to believe the exact same thing no matter what evidence is presented. There will always be differing views.

I believe OJ Simpson was guilty of murder. A jury acquitted him. They had evidence and they disregarded it in my opinion.

So maybe you are like that jury? You have evidence but you disregard it for some reason?

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curtis73 wrote:

Kate4Christ wrote:
you have got to be kidding??!!

I want to know as well... its a perfectly valid question. Every biblical figure except god was human. Who are you to judge which human is more credible than the next? I'd like an answer as well... Explain how Joseph Smith is any different than Paul.

Paul was a contemporary of Jesus Christ.

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Some Hell/Death/Sin questions

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