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Some Hell/Death/Sin questions

 
 
curtis73
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 04:52 pm
Intrepid wrote:
I would be interested to know more about Curtis' ordination. Was this a legitimate ordianation, or a web/mailorder deal? If Curtis is a published writer, why did he have to google his information that he posted here? Why didn't he quote from, or name his publications? Why does he seem to know so little about scripture? So many questions.....so little time.


I already explained why I googled... because I wasn't going to spend hours sifting through the bible to check for references when its as easy as google. If you want to debunk my argument by claiming its because I googled it and that helps everyone sleep at night, great. Otherwise, feel free to verify that the quotes I listed do in fact come from the bible and are verbatim. Does it matter that it was copied and pasted instead of typed out longhand?

As far as my history:

Undergrad degree in Religious Studies, Indiana University of Pennsylvania, 1996; Cum Laude
Graduate studies at Newburgh Theological Seminary, Newburgh, IN
Post-grad partially at Regent University SOD, Virginia in Practical Theology and Biblical Interpretation, pre-doctoral tract.
Ordained United Chruch of Christ 2000

I've also studied in 9 foreign countries, published in multiple periodicals and Psychology of Missiology journals. At one point I was at least competently knowledgable in Greek, Hebrew, and several other languages but you know what its like to not use a language for 7 or 8 years. It becomes pretty vestigial unless you use it.

Since 2000 I've pretty much devoted my life to the pursuit of a more yogic spirituality. It's funny how christians usually would give a respectful nod to Ghandi, but someone 34 years old in the modern world can't talk about his path without scrutiny.

Care to share, Kate and Intrepid? Care to share your experience and education or how you came to be at this point in your spiritual journey?

By the way, this whole thread may appear a bit confrontational, but I want you all to know that I'm enjoying the responsible and objective nature of this debate. Its nice to have this discussion with intelligent and knowledgable folks. Thanks for the chat.
0 Replies
 
kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 05:22 pm
curtis, my curiousity of your education stems from your list of contradictions in the bible. Go back to my last response please and see. I have a hard time understanding how you can be a theologian with the obvious elementary "contradictions" you gave.
Quote:
Care to share, Kate and Intrepid? Care to share your experience and education or how you came to be at this point in your spiritual journey?

I'm working on my psychology degree through Liberty University, about to start my masters. I'm no theologian, i just love to read and study. All religion classes i have taken have been in my gen. ed studies. As for my spiritual journey, i have been a christian since i was 8, I am now 26.
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curtis73
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 07:28 pm
I can see your point, Kate, but my argument is with literary contradictions. Regardless of what the interpretation is, the bottom line is that the bible doesn't say father-in-law, it says father.

One of my theses was entitled Compounded Extrapolation of Biblical Translation. The most likely cause for the bible saying "father" is the fact that in Greek there is no real word for "father-in-law." The translation in the first Latin texts weren't derived directly from the Hebrew, they were pulled from a conglomeration of the Greek and Hebrew. Over the centuries, the literacy level of most Catholic Monks and scholars was sustantial but inconsistent. It would have been easily overlooked, discussed in a committee, decided, or forgotten altogether.

The basic premise of my thesis was that examples like this lineage conundrum pose a potentially crippling problem with biblical contradictions. Since there is no word for "father-in-law" in Greek, how does one translate it even if they know he was the father-in-law? Do you translate word to word, or do you change it to reflect the current social terminology? Some get changed, others remain literal. Compounding the centuries of translation along with literacy and policy inconsistencies, potential for human agenda, and considering there are sometimes no words for direct translation, the possibility exists that the current texts are less accurate than we think. My basic point in the writing was that even if the original texts were god-breathed, as soon as you alter one fleck of it, it no longer retains the validity of the original.

Then you're left with thousands of generations unable to decipher the Hebrew texts, a book with hundreds of literal contradictions and a few hundred denominations, sects, and cults all interpreting the texts in their own way and the sanctity of the scripture becomes either A) open to interpretation by any society, culture, or individual, OR B) left to the indifferent masses of luke-warm sheep who will follow whatever the guy in the pulpit says they should believe. I'm not suggesting that you or anyone here IS one of those, but the bottom line (in my opinion) is that the literal contradictions of the bible create a void into which anyone can dump their judgement and claim godly authority.

Further evidence to this fact is how societies over the years have vastly altered the christian religion's target based on the "hot buttons" of the day; e.g. The Crusades, Witch Burning, Protestant Reformation, homosexual issues, war, etc. Right now one of the big christian issues is homosexuality; a phenomenon that has been occuring since the beginning of known recorded history, but with society's apparent homosexual enlightenment of recent, the church has begun to focus on it. Certainly not with the fervor of the Crusades, but with notable emphasis. The homosexually-tolerant denominations quote biblical passages which support their views, and the non-tolerant denoms do the same. Their references may be literally contradictory, so the argument comes under the perview of interpretation.

Take you (Kate) and me for example; two people who have obviously studied the bible heavily and come to vastly different conclusions; each one claiming that their relationship with god is the "right" one.

Long story longer: This particular thesis (although well-supported and researched) was poorly received by my doctoral peers. That is a euphemism for, "lost my scholarship and asked to leave the seminary." Smile In my opinion it was the best thing that ever happened to me. That is when I did the bulk of my overseas study, and was rewarded with the experience of seeing just how wildly different foreign christians are and how their interpretations and hot buttons are nothing like American/Canadian christians. It was as if my Prefects told me that my thesis was blasphemy and I should go out into the world and see just how steadfast, unified, and perfect the christian church is, and all it did was prove my point. I spent my days travelling from cathedrals to churches to libraries examining sermons throughout history. As a gift, I sent the president of the seminary a copy of a book called "The New Dehli Report," which was a transcript of the 3rd assembly of the world council of churches. I told him I picked it up at the Vatican Gift Shop. He was at least amused by the gesture. If you get a chance you should read it, although its been out of print for years. Pretty interesting to see how religions viewed things throughout history.

Sorry... I ramble. Jeez, my sermons weren't this long. Smile
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jan, 2008 09:53 pm
Curtis, your post pretty much sums up why the christian bible is NOT the supreme moral compass that many hope it to be.
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Uffda
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 12:14 pm
Baptism for the Dead
Quote:
Quote:
uffda wrote:
I don't think God needs the praise. I think God just wants us to find true happiness.


Very well then, do you, as a happy Mormon, believe you will be treated by God in the same manner as a happy atheist, agnostic or non-Mormon after you die?


Yes.. Treated the same e.g. fairly. Christ said you had to do certain things. (Accept Christ, be Baptised) to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I think people who haven't accepted Christ will be give a chance to do so. People who haven't been baptised will be give a chance to be baptised. You won't be forced to accept Christ or to be baptised. You will 'go' to where ever people who don't accept Christ or who choose not to be baptised 'go'. I don't think that's burning in fire and brimstone. That doesn't sound like a loving Father. 'Paradise' where the thieves crucified next to Christ went? Maybe?

So what do all of you think. Are the people all born in 'Darkest Africa, China, Middle East, wherever', or those who were born and died before Christ, and that never even heard of Christ damned? Do any other religions talk about 'baptism for the dead'?

Personally, I'm more interested in doctrine rather than misinterpatation, translations, etc. I don't care how many people were visiting Christ's tomb or how many chariots Solomon had. But hey, that's me.

[Father of 5, married 36 years, 5 Grand Kids, Dual Masters degrees in Operations Research & MIS, Sr. Civilian Computer Scientist (ND-4) US NAVY, High Priest in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints; I am also a Vietnam Vet USAF, SkyDive and Ride a Motorcycle.]
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 04:49 pm
Curtis,
Thank you for replying so openly and honestly.

My point was not the fact that you googled, and I was not using the fact that you did this as an argument. I was just wondering why you wouldn't have quoted from one of your books etc.

You have now piqued my curiosity as to why you fell away from the Church (I am assuming that you did by your posts... please correct me if I am mistaken)

My credentials are nowhere as impressive as yours. For many years I thought as many on this forum think and did not put a lot of stock in the bible, God, Jesus or the prophets. Through many life experiences, and yes experiences of faith, I have come to look at things differently. I look beyond the many interepretation, errors, changes and omissions in the bible and try to concentrate on the bigger picture.

My thoughts may be somewhat different than some, but I believe because I choose to believe. I have said this before and many have mocked and ridiculed this statement. Regardless, I believe because I choose to believe. Is there the possibility that I am wrong. Certainly there is. The thing is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I am right I have gained more that I could ever hope for. As far as any ministry, I am a Deacon in my Church. I have never tried to force my views on anybody and only expect the same. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:02 pm
Intrepid wrote:
The thing is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I am right I have gained more that I could ever hope for.



What if you're wrong about Christianity, and burn in hell because you weren't Muslim?
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:05 pm
That's a really good answer Intrepid.

It's left me rather curious why you wouldn't clarify your belief about the Elisha & the bears incident, discussed in that other thread.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:06 pm
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
The thing is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I am right I have gained more that I could ever hope for.



What if you're wrong about Christianity, and burn in hell because you weren't Muslim?


At least I will have believed in something and lived my life better than I might have otherwise.

Oh, btw, there are many more religions than Christian and Muslim. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:08 pm
vikorr wrote:
That's a really good answer Intrepid.

It's left me rather curious why you wouldn't clarify your belief about the Elisha & the bears incident, discussed in that other thread.


Thanks.

Probably because I thought I had made myself clear and some chose to look beyond that and try to make it much more black and white. Since scripture does not say specifically that God sent the bears.... I leave it open because I am not the authority to determine whether God was directly involved or not.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:14 pm
Intrepid wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
The thing is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I am right I have gained more that I could ever hope for.



What if you're wrong about Christianity, and burn in hell because you weren't Muslim?


At least I will have believed in something and lived my life better than I might have otherwise.

Oh, btw, there are many more religions than Christian and Muslim. :wink:


You live your life well because the bible tells you too? Honestly, that's the reason?

You understand that if the Muslim religion is correct, that it won't matter to god that you were a good person. You would have wasted this life believing in a false relgion.

And of course there are other religions; I was merely providing one example.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:18 pm
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
The thing is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I am right I have gained more that I could ever hope for.



What if you're wrong about Christianity, and burn in hell because you weren't Muslim?


At least I will have believed in something and lived my life better than I might have otherwise.

Oh, btw, there are many more religions than Christian and Muslim. :wink:


You live your life well because the bible tells you too? Honestly, that's the reason?

You understand that if the Muslim religion is correct, that it won't matter to god that you were a good person. You would have wasted this life believing in a false relgion.

And of course there are other religions; I was merely providing one example.


Once again you choose to interpret how you want rather than what is said.

No, I do not live my life well because the bible tells me to. I live my life well because it is a lot nicer than the alternative. I try to follow in the way Jesus lived. I am not as successful as I would like but I try.

If it doesn't matter to God, then it matters to me. I do not call that wasting my life.

Wasting my life would be to mock and find fault with those who have something in their heart that others cannot understand.

If you chose to give only one example. Why did you choose Muslim?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:26 pm
Intrepid wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
The thing is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I am right I have gained more that I could ever hope for.



What if you're wrong about Christianity, and burn in hell because you weren't Muslim?


At least I will have believed in something and lived my life better than I might have otherwise.

Oh, btw, there are many more religions than Christian and Muslim. :wink:


You live your life well because the bible tells you too? Honestly, that's the reason?

You understand that if the Muslim religion is correct, that it won't matter to god that you were a good person. You would have wasted this life believing in a false relgion.

And of course there are other religions; I was merely providing one example.


Once again you choose to interpret how you want rather than what is said.

No, I do not live my life well because the bible tells me to. I live my life well because it is a lot nicer than the alternative. I try to follow in the way Jesus lived. I am not as successful as I would like but I try.


I asked you what if Christianity was wrong. You replied that if it was wrong then at least you lived your life better than you would of if you didn't follow Christianity. This means that if you didn't follow Christianity, you would not have lived as good of a life. Therefore you are living a better life becuase you follow what the bible tells you to do. I don't see how I'm interpreting your statement incorrectly.

Quote:

If it doesn't matter to God, then it matters to me. I do not call that wasting my life.

Wasting my life would be to mock and find fault with those who have something in their heart that others cannot understand.


You would be wasting your life. If the purpose of life is to please god and do his will, then you are wasting your life pleasing the WRONG GOD. You wouldn't be acheiving your life's purpose. I don't think the Muslim god would accept you into heaven just because you were a good guy.

Quote:

If you chose to give only one example. Why did you choose Muslim?


Because the Muslim beliefs are incompatable with the Christian beliefs. If I would have said Morman, or Catholic, or Protestant you could have weaseled out of it by saying that they are all basically the same with some minor differences.

You can't say the same thing about the Muslim beliefs.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:28 pm
Have a good night, maporsche.

BTW, the bible does not TELL me to do anything. Perhaps you should ponder that and look outside the little box than you have fashioned.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:30 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Have a good night, maporsche


You too Intrepid.
Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:31 pm
Intrepid wrote:
BTW, the bible does not TELL me to do anything. Perhaps you should ponder that and look outside the little box than you have fashioned.


No, it says that if you don't do these things you'll burn in hell for all eternity.

That's not TELLing you to do anything right?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:32 pm
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Have a good night, maporsche


You too Intrepid.
Twisted Evil


Smile
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:34 pm
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
BTW, the bible does not TELL me to do anything. Perhaps you should ponder that and look outside the little box than you have fashioned.


No, it says that if you don't do these things you'll burn in hell for all eternity.

That's not TELLing you to do anything right?


It would probably be best to end this discussion now since you prefer to argue every point and you do not have any legitimate understanding of the bible. Or even try to understand the context in what people try to explain to you about what it means to them.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:36 pm
Intrepid wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
BTW, the bible does not TELL me to do anything. Perhaps you should ponder that and look outside the little box than you have fashioned.


No, it says that if you don't do these things you'll burn in hell for all eternity.

That's not TELLing you to do anything right?


It would probably be best to end this discussion now since you prefer to argue every point and you do not have any legitimate understanding of the bible. Or even try to understand the context in what people try to explain to you.


I spent 13 years reading the bible and traveling to South America on mission trips and converting people to Christianity. I think my understanding is quite legitimate......your understanding I question.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:49 pm
Quote:
Thanks.

Probably because I thought I had made myself clear and some chose to look beyond that and try to make it much more black and white. Since scripture does not say specifically that God sent the bears.... I leave it open because I am not the authority to determine whether God was directly involved or not.


Ah I see - just as an observation then - that wasn't clear because what you said was 'your view doesn't matter, and neither does mine. The bible doesn't state such" (or something very close - that's not a direct quote).

I do think it's an unusual thing to hold to (not forming a view on the subject that is), but that is just my perspective.

As for trying to make things black & white - the bible certainly doesn't allow for that on a lot of topics. The nature of God (as described in the bible) is certainly debatable.
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