Re: Leap of Faith
Uffda wrote:Scientific method requires Control. It's part of the definition. To test something with and without the variant. You either don't have a world without God or you don't have a world with God for Scientific method you have to have both.
Your concept of the scientific method is flawed. The outcome (although sometimes called a proof) is simply a culmination of the research and experiementation. It doesn't mean that its is cold fact. The scientific method is simply a path to explanation. The theory of relativity was derived using the scientific method, but since we cannot prove or disprove it with current technology, it will remain unproven. Saying that there is no proof that god does or does not exist is not a valid argument. My research and experimentation has shown me that god does exist, but that neither proves nor disproves god's existence.
Quote:You can't prove the existence of God neither can you disprove the existence of God so logic dictates you don't know if there is a God or not. That agnostic. Being an atheist is an opinion as is a belief in God.
correction. I know god exists because she has revealed herself in many real ways to me. That is my theory and proof. If a new set of data comes along, I will integrate and embrace it as well. I'm not like a religious freak who denies the plausibility of any new information.
Quote:Again, if you can't prove the tooth fairy does or doesn't exist it's more logical to say you don't know. Anything else is just an opinion. With scientific method you cannot disregard something because you 'think' it's unlikely.
not big on the idea of faith, are you?
Of course its opinion. We don't have proof, nor do we actively use the scientific method when dealing with our opinions and emotions. Humans rarely distinguish between opinion and fact, especially on a forum where anonymity is a huge factor.
Quote:Logic dictates you are 'better off' if you believe (not that it's a valid argument for you to change your beliefs.)
I disagree. Humans have repeatedly shown that they are better off in their individual comfort zones. For some that is atheism, for others its fundamentalism. Missioning (regardless of the persuasion) is simply trying to convince someone of other persuasions that theirs is better.
Quote:Okay, Sally's brother dies. She's morning and says.. Well at least he's in a better place. Assuming you don't hate Sally do you tell her, Hey your brother was liar and a cheat. If there is a God he's burning in hell but it's more likely that he's just worm food! That doesn't seem like a nice thing to do even if it's true.
Your example is only one tiny possibility in a massive set of possibilities. I agree that those actions could be construed as mean to Sally depending on how she accepts the information and integrates it with her beliefs, but that in NO way assumes that telling her was motivated by malicious intent. That also has nothing to do with being a missionary for your beliefs. The informant is not telling Sally that she needs to be agnostic or Hindu, the informant is telling Sally that her brother was a dick.
Quote: How does this 'hope' (false in your opinion) hurt her? Are you afraid she'll spend her life needlessly lighting candles or trying to be good because of her belief in a Saviour that wants her to be good?
Firstly, I never judged anyone's hope as false. When I said these words:
]Also, I think you'll find that atheists would argue for atheism because they believe that faith in themselves is better than false faith in a god that doesn't exist., I was stating an atheist perspective. I was saying that an atheist would consider faith in god a false hope since they don't believe in god.
Quote:I don't really understand the 'Christians' that believe I'll burn in Hell. I think god is a loving father. Why would he want me (or them) to burn forever? Isn't he all about forgiveness? Only by the 'Leap of Faith' can man know god. If you haven't had it, sorry I can't explain it.
Man, I am so with you on that. You try to explain the paradox of unconditional love to a fundamentalist christian and they just don't get it. You try to explain that if god has unconditional love, he won't send you to hell, and that if he sends you to hell he can't have unconditional love and they just start likening god to an angry daddy. I don't get it either.
Quote:There are things within my own religion that I don't understand. Those things aren't that important to me. In my math book it talks about the square root of a negative one (imaginary numbers). I have to admit I don't understand it but I wouldn't throw the book away.
But... there is a big difference between not understanding and false information. You understand that (except in extremely advanced calculus) 1+1 does not equal 1, so if you read a math textbook that said it does, you would discard the validity of the book (if not the book itself). Just because you don't understand the square roots of negatives doesn't mean they are false or don't exist.
Quote:I'm curious about what contradictions you find in the bible. Is it the miracles? Raising the dead, walking on water? I can see that that is different than your (or my) experiences but it's not really a contradiction. The old testiment was more eye for an eye while the New testiment is talks about love your neighbor that is contradictory but that's kind of the point.
Holy shi... I won't even get into it. Google "bible contradictions" and you'll find thousands of websites where the research has already been done, like this one:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html . How about the fact that the new testament talks about eternal damnation to those who commit adultery, but the old testament speaks of godly men with hundreds of concubines. How about the fact that back to back gospels have huge discrepancies in something as simple as the story of christ's birth. The list is intense. Some are obscure, which leaves them open to the perview of faith to a christian, while others are blatantly in contradiction.
Quote:The flood, common in nearly all ancient scripture including I believe the Talmud/Torah, Koran Islam, as are the stories of Abraham and creation of the world? That means the stories have been around for a really long time or they all refer to a common event.
In my belief, neither. Some of the jewish scholars that make up the head of the jewish church long ago decided that the entire torah is not fact, but rather a collection of parables (which by definition are fictitious stories) designed to educate jews on how to live. Basically, they decided that the old testament was a big bedtime story, but still a valid guidline for living.
The significance to me is not the events themselves, but that the same events show up in all kinds of scripture... long before christianity: greek and roman empires, ancient egypt, mesopotamian cultures, south american tribal writings, even norse mythology. I think that god was here and laid down some kickin' tracks, but we've remixed them so many times for our own enslavement that the original meaning is long lost.
