Some Hell/Death/Sin questions

It doesn't matter WHAT sins you think are forgiven and which one's aren't. You have just proven my point... that the christian god of unconditional love PLACES CONDITIONS on his love. You yourself just said it. The church taught you that some are forgiven and some aren't. This same church taught you that god gives you unconditional love, right? I grew up in the Christian church, so you can't tell me I'm wrong on that one. I was taught that same paradox; god gives unconditional love and any sin you confess through jesus will be forgiven... but some sins aren't and you'll go to hell. How can any intelligent human NOT see the FUNDAMENTAL CONTRADICTION in the entire basis of that faith? You're purporting that if I kill 8 million people and then ask forgiveness, god will say, "ok, you can come into heaven." But if I blaspheme, the god of unconditional love will banish me to hell forever regardless of how many times I ask her forgiveness??? Religion constantly asks this of its followers; to swallow one paradox while ignoring a contradiction. Religion has built a financial and political empire greater than Rome at its highest peak, all based on a stack of contradictions. They are preying on your ignorance, driving your obedience with fear of a vengeful god.

Which brings me to another HUGE point that you have nicely brought to light: After they have built an empire based on contradictions, what did they do? They made the one thing that could shatter the empire an unforgivable sin. What is blasphemy? Questioning the existence or validity of the sanctity of god. They invited you in, told you contradictions, then told you that the ONE THING you could do to cause eternal damnation is to use logic, blaspheme, or question anything.

Its as if you can come in, but you can't leave without eternal damnation. Its the perfect setup; orchestrated by a politician and finely honed by thousands of interpretations, translations, and vatications to closely follow the social, political, and moral timbre of the times.

"Hi, welcome!"
"thanks for inviting me to your party"
"thanks for coming, make yourself at home."
"I'm so glad I came, everyone here is so cool."
"So, help yourself to the free Yin and Yang, but if you question their coexistence, I'll lock you in my basement and torture you for all eternity. But, in the meantime, please enjoy the freedom from recompense while the rest of the world lives with the earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes that we create with our misguided prayer, hatred, and pity."
"Great, so there's a paradox in your statement..."
"...n-n-n-no, we don't talk about that. Its unforgiveable."

Hate to disillusion anybody... but if there is any one sin which cannot be forgiven it's probably evolutionism and you don't need Christian or any other sort of deep theology to grasp why. That one probably works the same way that certain kinds of practices amongst salesmen work, i.e. it involves a lie so gargantuan that nobody with any brains or talent could possibly feel sorry for anybody who buys off on it.

How marvelously obtuse!

And if there were no conditions? Would murder be acceptable?

Would you be comfortable with a universe of anarchy? Apparently so.

The events of the Garden of Eden focused on this one question: Does God have the right to set standards for his creation?

So, is that your final answer?

I feel as though I've been wrapped in a soft fuzzy coccoon of agape love and good feelings here.... thank you folks...... all this glory for God of course...

daniellejean,

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing to satan something that God has done. It is from:

[quote]Mark 3:

20And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread.

21And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

24And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. [/quote]

According to the dictionary though blasphemy is considered:

[quote]. blas·phe·mies

A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.

The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.

An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct. [/quote]

Also, Paul was forgiven for blasphemy IN HIS UNBELIEF, so I think that matters also. I can find that scripture if you'd like.

Also, here is a something you might want to read on blasphemy.

[quote]The case of "blasphemy against the Spirit" in the New Testament is mentioned in Mark 3:22-30 and in Matthew 12:22-32. The term blasphemy may be generally defined as "defiant irreverence." We would apply the term to such sins as cursing God, or willfully degrading things relating to God. It is also attributing some evil to God, or denying Him some good that we should attribute to Him. This case of blasphemy, however, is a specific one, called "THE blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 12:31. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon "Beelzebub" (Matthew 12:24). Now notice that in Mark 3:30 Jesus is very specific about what exactly they did to commit "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."

This blasphemy has to do with someone accusing Jesus Christ of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. There are other ways to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but this was "THE" unpardonable blasphemy. As a result, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth. but seated at the right Hand of God. No one can witness Jesus Christ performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. Although there is no blasphemy of the Spirit today, we should always keep in mind there is an unpardonable state of existence--the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit's promptings to trust in Jesus Christ is the unpardonable blasphemy. Remember what is stated in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life." The only condition when someone would have no forgiveness is if that someone is not among the "whoever believes in Him."

http://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-Holy-Spirit.html

[/quote]

Curtis,

The Bible itself tells you what is sin and what is not. No human being has to tell you this. As to whether God's love is unconditional or not I guess that's your point of view. I view God as the Father and fathers have rules. They don't stop loving you if you break the rules but you do have to pay the price for breaking them.

Hey... don't look at me. I didn't write the bible, I just read it. Its a commentary on christianity. I never said that there should or should not be conditions, I just mentioned the huge disparity in beliefs on which christianity is based.

God HAS set standards for his creation, but that doesn't mean he is the god that the bible portrays; angry, vengeful, hateful, jealous, and then suddenly agape with love. God IS love. We ascribe qualities to these god and satan characters; good and evil. We describe the devil as being pure evil and god as being purely good, yet we give god all of these HUMAN faults. Oops, he didn't make humans right the first time, so Noah had to put his family on a boat with 2 of every animal. (which, at the time would have been approximately 75 million species, so about 150 million animals). God is perfect but he screwed up and we had to kill everyone except one family? I don't think so.

Anarchy? We're a long way from it, but why would a truly evolved society need morality? In a society where we fully realize our god-selves, and how interconnected we are, there won't be murder or theft or lies. There CAN'T be since a "sin" unto someone else is a "sin" unto ourselves. If I kill someone, I'm doing far more damage to my soul than I am to his, but christianity makes you believe that all you have to do is 10 hail marys and god forgives you. That kind of empty atonement is the BS that is DRIVING immorality. Its the PERFECT tool to keep the pews and collection plates full; tell you that everything you do in your daily life is bad and the only way absolve yourself is to be obedient. They offer you a get out of jail free card. They pump you so full of fear, telling you every sin is as bad as the next. This is after all the church that used to sell indulgences. They lay it on thick, telling you that you can't sin or the angry jealous spiteful god of the old testament will come hunt you down, but if you ask forgiveness, the fluffy, sweet, forgiving god of the new testament will tell you that its all OK.

God didn't send jesus to die because we suck, he sent jesus to show us how to live and (like every other enlightened soul in history) we killed him.

Most people today assume that because we have evolved as a society to this point that we as advanced as we'll ever get. We are such beginners.

How could you think that a god of such infinity would need to be pleased? Why does he need worship? Why wouldn't she just dabble with our little souls until we're right? She doesn't dabble because that's not the point. God put us here to experience. We are the relativity of his abstractness. Without us little pieces of god, god cannot be self-realized.

So, this morality concept of which you speak in your infinite wisdom, do you think god created morality, or did morality already exist and god just relayed it to us? That is to say, did a universal right and wrong exist irrespective of god, or was god the one that came up with the idea? Be careful with your answer, because either way its a conundrum. The only logical conclusion is that one of those two entities doesn't exist. If god exists, then a universal moral code cannot. Google it and see for yourself. Atheists are those who have (whether consciously or not) come to the conclusion that god does not exist, so we're all at the mercy of law and morality as our guiding regulatory body. Those like me who believe in god and have truly thought about it (using the logic and skills god gave us) come to the conclusion that universal moral code cannot exist. The rest are in organized religion. I always think of organized religion like the end of Rainman with Tom Cruise and Dusting Hoffman:

"Ray, do you want to go back to Bainbridge?"
"yeah, wanna go back to bainbridge"
"Ray, do you want to live with your brother charlie?"
"yeah, wanna live with my brother, charlie babbit"
"Ray, you understand those are two different places"
"yeah, wanna go back to bainbridge, live with charlie babbit."

Everything you think you know about god and christ might be inaccurate, but your religion requires you to believe it. I'm not saying I have the right answers, but at least I'm finally on the right path. All I'm saying is... THINK FOR YOURSELVES. Don't let someone else do the thinking just because he or she went to seminary. You may not have the brain to think abstractly, (its not easy for me) but at least try to think for yourselves.

That's my whole point. God's love IS unconditional, but christianity places conditions on how you can attain his love and forgiveness.

And if you blasphemed your dad, would he banish you to hell for all eternity? How about if you raped, sodomized, tortured, and murdered your mother and all of your siblings? You need to be careful with the examples you draw.

If I may butt in - Curtiss, aren't you confusing love and forgiveness? Or are they one and the same to you?

You have misconstrued the concept of sin against the Holy Spirit. Basically, it involves continuing to sin in spite of knowing it is wrong. How else could you ask for forgiveness?

Not at all. I enjoy good debate. Forgiveness is something christians believe they need to acquire from god. I do not. God does not require my obedience. It does not detract from god's greatness if I lie, steal, cheat, or murder. It doesn't change him. To god, those actions may or may not be what he would deem beneficial to the human conglomerate soul, but its not god I need to apologize to. Christians' interpretation (in general... not speaking specifically for those here) of god often times DOES confuse love and forgiveness. They (again - in general) believe that without forgiveness they don't get to heaven and god will eternally damn them to hell... which does not support their theory of unconditional love. I could understand a firm talking-to once you die like a father would if you wrecked the car, but eternal damnation? That doesn't sound like a loving father, that sounds like a manipulative religion keeping you obedient with fear. If you wreck the car and don't ask your dad's forgiveness, he's not going to torture you for eternity. The depiction of the christian god would. That is not unconditional love to me. That is spiteful, vindictive, retributional hatred. At the very least, an improportionate response to a stimulus.

My point is that the paradox of unconditional love is very poorly supported in the christian faith. I think its much more likely that the contributing writings were grossly altered when Constantine published the bible several hundred years after the stuff supposedly happened in an attempt to do what all emperors do; gain control. Fundamentalist christianity (any way you slice it) is a faith based on incongruent writings, contradictions, and the editing of a thousand-man council of politicians and philosophs. To neglect this possibility has been the foundation of christianity from day one. To question this possibility was made blasphemy and the portrait of god was made out to be hateful and retaliatory to enforce that obedience.

I think its more likely that god just loves us, not because we are his children, but because we are PART of him. I don't believe that he created us in his image, I believe he created us from himself. I think the way it is, is that god can no more banish us to hell than we would cut off a finger. And we don't hate our finger for accidentally scratching ourselves. We don't require forgiveness of our finger, nor would we cut it off and give it to satan for eternal torment.

I also believe that satan is a complete fabrication; a fictional character created to put even more fear in humans for social obedience. It makes no sense. the bible shows us that god is the alpha and omega, the all, the everything... except the stuff that isn't god like satan. How can god be all, but there is something else? There is just god. Everything is god and god is everything. Yet another little tidbit of logic that seems to get glossed over by many major religions; god is everything, except the other stuff that isn't? I don't get it. If you believe in satan, you either have to accept that god is NOT all, or that satan is part of god; pure evil that was spawned from god, which means you would have to either accept that god is fallible and created satan, or believe that god is not the everything; that there is more than god out there. You can't live with charlie babbit and live at bainbridge. The more obvious answer is that satan doesn't exist.

I've also had this conversation with people who believe in hell.



It does, doesn't it.


That's something only biblical historians/scholars could legitimately debate (and I have no knowledge of it).

I would think though, if there were evidence of this, that the atheist scientists/scholars would have gotten a hold of it and published it (or have they?), and that it would have caused an uproar.

What does this one mean neo?

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Murderers have been forgiven. David and Manassah, for example. So, I suppose it must mean those who commit such sins with no intention of repentance or turning away from them.

Is that what you meant?

I Just read The First Page So this Opinion may be SLIGHTLY Off but here goes....


I think that anyone Who's THAT Much into Religion Should maybe back off a bit.....you'll be Locking away Basic Principles of your life For fear of what might happen "afterwards" When there might not be ANYTHING afterwards....

This is Your only Life and I think That If your happy with what your doing and that YOU Want and beleive That its the right thing For YOU Then you should do it.....And That includes Being a stripper Or Doing Porn Or Looking at lots of hot Chicks thinking dirty thoughts about them....

Why Would You doing Basic Everyday things Because your afraid it will make you a sinner? This is your life and If you think its right and want to Do it then DO IT.....dont spend all your time worrying and Restricting yourself due to religion.

but thats merely the advice of an athiest/nihilist

How else could you ask for forgiveness, well it's simple: Pascal's Wager on your deathbed.

Curtis,

You talk about God giving us a firm talking to after death. I think it could even be worse than that depending on the sin, like perhaps being grounded for a week, or seven hundred years. But isn't that what the idea of purgatory is all about? I realize that Purgatory got thrown out with Martin Luther, but hey, I'm Catholic (in a way).

A good book that I read on the subject of Hell is "If God is Love," by James Mulholland. He also wrote "If Grace is True," which I haven't read. Both books talk about the inexistence of Hell. Mr. Mulholland was a firmly fundamentalist Christian before he came to this conclusion. He supports his statement with many Biblical passages. AND, he says that the inexistence of Hell does not give us a right to sin just because eternal damnation doesn't exist. It's a matter of being close to God, and sin brings you farther from God. I'm paraphrasing here and it's been a while since I've read the book. "If Grace is True" is on my to read list. But I definately recommend "If God is Love" to those reading this thread.

Personally, I think that Purgatory has to exist - though I don't know on what terms. Perhaps thats because I don't think God will punish us eternally for not getting it right in 70 years time. 70 years is Piddly-squat in the grand scheme of things. I think we can find the truth after death, and everybody will in the end, whatever that truth is. And once you arrive at the truth, you are with God. And that is Heaven. When you are not with God, perhaps you are in "Hell" or more appropriately "Purgatory" because it is temporary. Hell is darkness and untruth. But if we believe what the Bible says, truth will win out in the end.

As for the chaff burning and the wheat being gathered into Christ's barn, I have no immediate response. I don't deny that Christ talks about retribution - I just don't know that I can reconcile my image of God, and more importantly, the purpose of His sacrificing His only beggotten son with a burning, eternal Hell.

Oh...questions!

I interprupt this to mean that there will be no eternal life but rather a person will be put in a literal or metaphorical lake of fire and cease to exist, losing chance of eternal life, but nowhere no how does that look like a place where you burn eternally or it wouldn't be called a second death.

Can you demonstrate that moral absolutes do not exist?

The position 'No behavior violates a moral absolute' is inherently contradictory since it states in the form of a moral absolute that moral absolutes do not exist.