US a fading superpower?

Lord, Foofie, with such enthusiasm ANYTHING can be accomplished! Reminds me of a song from "La Mancha";

"To dream the impossible dream....." :wink:

I shall camouflage my windmill should I discover you are heading into my neighborhood.

Halfback

Zip is working on a solution to "The Jewish Problem" with the same insight hes shown us about the govts involvement in9/11

now i'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if someone could show me which post of zippo's *best* qualifies him as an anti-semite, i'm eagerly waiting to see it. i realize he's critical of israeli policy, and quite often at that, but let's see what people come up with, if they're going to throw accusations around.

i find that when i press him to qualify his statements, he gives me more than you guys are offering me on this one- or if nothing else, admits he went too far.

Power over another is the amount of influence you exert over another.

Influence relies on :

The ability to move one to action through reputation - Respect
The appeal of ones beliefs / appeal to ones beliefs - 'cultural/religious'
The ability to grant rewards - economic power
The ability to coerce - military power / economic power

The US is losing respect - that is decline
China is rising as an economic powerhouse, and will one day overtake the US - that could be called relative decline.
The US' military power? Hmmm...It does currently rely on oil, and when that runs out...
The appeal to ones beliefs, relies on similarity/familiarity with the major beliefs, and the ability to appeal to them through oratory, music, propoganda, lies, movies etc...appears to be one of the US's strong points - for the west anyway.

I'm sure there are other considerations.

The dollar began 2007 @ 1.90 and it's now 2.07.

I think that you ignore Veblen's dictum at your peril and my dictum is that I can't see how you can't ignore it at this stage.

I think "space" will eventually be put to bed as it's novelty wears off and the futility of it dawns on the population. Like Concorde. I know that it has provided breakthroughs in non-stick frying-pan technology, welcome as that is, and some nice pictures boosting national pride but all in all it's too big a hill to climb and like all big hills there's eff all when you get there.

You're always going to need the poor bloody infantry and now hardly anybody wants to be in it.

I think all civilisations have declined when the "leisure class" comprised more than 50% of the population and could determine policy. Veblen wrote about a very small number who are now being emulated with a vengeance. Caste gradations can run away with the whole GDP once critical mass has been reached.

?!

This shows just how obsessive you are. There is a pro-Saudi lobby, a pro-Egyptian lobby, a pro-Herzegovina lobby, for chrissake. The significance of any of the lobbies depends upon the extent to which they can convince the administration that the nation's foreign policy interests are deeply involved in their agendas, or convince members of Congress that their re-election prospects are proximately affected. Israel is a superficial interest, because it is a geographic coincidence that it lies in the cockpit of western interest. If a Zionist homeland lay in East Africa, as was once seriously proposed, we wouldn't give a rat's ass if they were slaughtering Africans, or Africans were slaughtering them. Israel went to war in 1947, 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1978 and 2006. No international forces intervened in any of those cases, except for the Franco-English effort to seize the Suez Canal in 1956, and Eisenhower let them all know in no uncertain terms that he would not tolerate general war in the middle east. But when little Kuwait was invaded in 1990, Pappy Bush put together an international coalition in a matter of a few weeks, and unleashed bloody war on the Iraqis (and had the good sense not to get involved in an occupation of Iraq).

Your sense of proportion is warped by your obsession with an alleged Jewish conspiracy. The pro-Israeli lobby may get a lot of press, and as i have frequently stated, our support for Israel is a foolish policy. But i'm not so naive that i don't recognize that the pro-Saudi lobby wields, quietly and much more effectively, a greater influence on our government than any number of noisy supporters of Israel ever have or ever will.

You have still miserably failed to demonstrate that all of America's problems stem from support of Israel, which is the point i made. As for staying on topic, you have signally failed to demonstrate that support of Israel is even a major factor in whether or not the United States will remain a "superpower." The biggest "threat" to our position is economic, not military, and it will come from China, not the middle east. You are pathetically clueless, and transparently obsessed with Jews.

As I enjoy disagreeing with Settin' Aah-aah it pains me that he has frustrated me on this occasion.

Sure, they also have great influence. They've managed to convince Bush to park their pollution-free transportation near the White House.





Which is oil. When can we hang Bush and Co for lying to us?




You're extremely heartless if you believe that.



Whats your point, or did you just say this to sound intelligent?



Very funny! If that were true, they'd have more then one camel parked.



This is what you support. This is were our billions in aid is going. Setanta thinks the rest of the world is stupid and won't notice anything. Therefore we should fully support Israel, out little killing machine. It's all for "western interest" of course

The Israel lobby: "We have an 'unwritten contract' with the American media"





Click here for the real Israel : http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

Israel will bring down the American Empire via the 'Pro Israel Lobby'/AIPAC !!

Explain Suez Zip.

A city of northeast Egypt at the head of the Gulf of Suez and the southern terminus of the Suez Canal. It became a major port after the opening of the canal. Population: 488,000

How does that effect the American Empire?

Zippy seems not to have noticed that we provide military support and sweet-heart purchase deals to the Saudis, as well. At no time has the United States deployed troops to protect Israel--but when Kuwait was occupied, and Saudi Arabia threatened, the Prez did not hesitate.

Suez is important because of what occurred in 1956. It was not the city of Suez, though, it was the canal. The Egyptians, having successfully thrown out their sybaritic western-puppet King, decided to nationalize the Suez Canal. France and England reacted by dropping paratroops on the canal, and Israel sent forces out into the Sinai. Eisenhower sent a fleet and a Marine battle group to the Lebanon, in case things got out of hand, and told the Israelis to back off if they expected continued American support. He then also, apparently, gave the Brits and the Froggies an ultimatum, although no reliable details have yet been revealed. Publicly, he condemned their action and refused to give military or logistic support.

The incident is important because it demonstrates that for whatever rhetoric the Israelis peddle, the United States has never (and likely never will) put their own troops and military assets on the line for Israel. And, despite the rhetoric of anti-semitic conspiracy nuts, there is no evidence that any pro-Israeli lobby controls American foreign policy. The very fact that there is so much literature these days condemning the policies of the state of Israel, and the American foreign policy relationship with Israel, is compelling evidence of the extent to which pro-Israeli groups do not control either the government or public policy discussions in the United States.

Zippy has signally failed to explain how a relationship with Israel would ever lead to the collapse of the "superpower" status of the United States.

You know, Zippy, it's pathetic that you rant and froth at the mouth about Israel and Jews, and you don't even know the history of the region. It would have been a simple matter for you to have typed "Suez+1956" into a search engine, and then you might have learned something.

Oh yeah, i forgot, you already have all the answers, don't ya?

Okay. I was using shorthand.

Explain the American policy towards the British/French/Israeli attempt to get regime change in Egypt in 1956 the failure of which has led by a simple process, easily foreseeable, to where we are now. The British sponsored Iragi government, with two large bases of our's under its wing soon afterwards collapsed. And the French controlled Lebanon at the time. We also controlled Jordan and, to an extent Syria.

The Israeli lobby didn't seem to be much use on that occasion.

Suez 1956 was possibly a learning lesson for them (Israel Lobby), that was a time for them to think about reformation, new ideas and extra cash flows/bribes. That was the beginning of a new era, a more powerful lobby was obviously needed. Surely you did expect them to improve on their tactical maneuvers? It took approx 50 years for them to have a firm grip on U.S testicals. This is the age where our U.S officials would sell their country for the right price. No prizes for guessing who supports them most.

Today, AIPAC is widely regarded as the most powerful foreign-policy lobby in Washington DC and by other accounts, the most powerful lobby period, except for perhaps the Association for the Advancement of Retired Persons (AARP). Describing the AIPAC, Massing wrote, 'Its 60,000 members shower millions of dollars on hundreds of members of Congress on both sides of the aisle. It also maintains a network of wealthy and influential citizens around the country, whom it can regularly mobilize to support its main goal, which is making sure there is 'no daylight' between the policies of Israel and of the United States.' As powerful, influential, and often intimidating as the AIPAC is, Massing is quick to point out that the mainstream media reports on Congressional votes that serve Israeli interests and policies as if the AIPAC does not even exist and therefore had nothing to do with the outcome of how members of the U.S. Congress voted.

Well I thought that the Oklahoma bomber said that he was protesting about MI6 having you by the balls.

Is there anybody else?

BTW Zip-- where does all the money come from to pay out for what you describe must cost?

This is an example of just one person...Remember there are millions of them. A small list can be found HERE

"A federal jury on Monday ruled that the assault on the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center was in fact two occurrences for insurance purposes. The finding in U.S. District Court in Manhattan means leaseholder Larry Silverstein may collect up to $4.6 billion, according to reports." [Forbes.com 12/06/04]

Larry Silverstein is a Zionist Jewish citizen.

A survey of "Forbes' 400", the annual financial magazine's online-published list of the United States' wealthiest people, reveals that 40% of them are Jewish and/or Jewish-Zionist.

Check this out!



The following is a transcript of the Oct. 22, 1992 conversation with President David Steiner of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) recorded without his knowledge by New York businessman Haim (Harry) Katz. Its existence was first revealed to the Washington Times and its release triggered Steiner's resignation.Scans of the original article

David Steiner AIPAC: Haim.

Haim Katz: Hello, how are you?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Where are you located?

HAIM KATZ: I'm located in Queens, New York.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Queens.. .Far Rockaway?

HAIM KATZ: Belle Harbor.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Belle Harbor. I'm trying to get this list together. Would you ever get into the city?

HAIM KATZ: Sure, I do. Sure, you come frequently?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Well I come in from time to time. I have an office there, at AIPAC in the city. You know, I want you to understand . . . where did you get my name and phone number?

HAIM KATZ: Oh, I, um, I called AIPAC. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah.

HAIM KATZ: And ahh. . .I know you're the president of AIPAC...

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: You should understand that, the political information that I gave you, those are personal choices . . .

HAIM KATZ: Sure, I understand.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: AIPAC does not rate or endorse candidates, does not solicit money. . .

HAIM KATZ: Yeah, look.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I want you to understand that the choices I would give you are personal choices.

HAIM KATZ: I understand.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I wonder if before . . . I want to get together with you next week.

HAIM KATZ: Next week would be fine.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: But in the meantime, I wonder if I can have one of my people get together with you and talk to you about it . . . They'll want to meet you and know who you are and all this. I have a.. . maybe if I can have Seth Buchwald call you, my New York director.

HAIM KATZ: That would be terrific.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: And we have a guy out there, Joel Schnur. And, are you orthodox?

HAIM KATZ: Ah, yes.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Okay, Joel is orthodox too. I am not.

HAIM KATZ: You're reform or?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I'm reform.

HAIM KATZ: Okay, let me just say. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I was raised orthodox but I'm reform.

HAIM KATZ: Okay, let me just tell you that, I'll just hold you a minute. I'll be happy to meet with them, I know, I've heard the names, I'd be happy to meet with them, as a matter of fact I could, when I'm in Manhattan...Are you ever in Manhattan?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Sure, today I'm going to be there, but I can't. I'm meeting with the ambassador.

HAIM KATZ: Okay, I'll just ask you very very quickly. You know, like, in New York, you know, this is your own personal opinion, like in New York we have Abrams against D'Amato.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Well, let me tell you what my personal position is. Okay?

HAIM KATZ: Yeah.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: From a Jewish point of view, I believe in political loyalty.

HAIM KATZ: Right.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: And if someone has been good for Israel, no matter who, if my brother would run against them, I would support them because they'd been good to Israel because that's an important message to people.

HAIM KATZ: Right.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: What I'm going to be doing for you. . .

HAIM KATZ: Now D'Amato, has he been good for Israel?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: You couldn't have a better . . . listen I think Abrams would be good too, but that's not the message.

HAIM KATZ: Yeah.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Ah...

HAIM KATZ: So the message, so the message is that ah...I agree with you all the way, that if somebody's been good for Israel, I'll take D'Amato. But you have no complaints with D'Amato?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I have no complaints with D'Amato.

HAIM KATZ: Uh huh, so and ah, you know, let me tell you, Abrams might be, might be too liberal. I don't know if Abrams supported, let's say the ah, the war against Iraq.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah, I don't know, and ah, I don't know. But all I know is if I have a guy who is there and he's doing it, then I don't want to change, you know?

HAIM KATZ: Right. Let me ask you this very quickly and then I will. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I'm going to have Seth call you because in the meantime I'm going to be preparing this list, what I'm doing is, I've asked my friends AIPAC in the various campaigns, I've made about 30 calls, what I'm trying to put together who needs AIPAC it the most, you know? Because you could dissipate a million dollars, but the point is to put it where it's going to do the most, I know Bob Kasten, who's been an outstanding friend and needs AIPAC it I know. . .

HAIM KATZ: Excuse my ignorance. Bob Kasten is what state?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: From Wisconsin. . .

HAIM KATZ: Okay, is he Jewish?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: . . .He's for loan guarantees, he happens to be a Republican.

HAIM KATZ: Okay, and but, he's good? He's. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: You couldn't have better.

HAIM KATZ: Is Kasten, Kasten's been very, very good and he's in trouble?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: He's in big trouble. Les Aspin, who's the Chairman of the Military Appropriations, a Democrat also from Wisconsin is really [unintelligible].

HAIM KATZ: You mean, Les Aspin is in trouble?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: In big trouble.

HAIM KATZ: I can't believe it. I mean, I don't, I don't follow . . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Well see, what happened was, you know ah, when you get to know me, I'll put you on my list and I'll be sending all these things. A wealthy businessman decided to run, using all his own money. Aspin, 'cause they sit on the finance committee for Aspin. . .

HAIM KATZ: Right.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: . ..programmed the last two weeks of, well the last month of the campaign, for TV. This guy came in two months early and we didn't have the money budgeted, so we're out scratching around to raise money for him. So we, heck, I told him, I said that I'd go, I'll sign on the bank on a loan for you, you know, that's how important it is.

HAIM KATZ: Unbelievable. You know I read, I won't hold you long, but I'd just tell you this. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: That's okay.

HAIM KATZ: . . .I'll just tell you this, I read the New York Post, and I don't even read the papers too much, I don't follow politics . . . are you ready for this?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah.

HAIM KATZ: Get ready for this. I read in the papers this morning, I think it was the (NY) Post, Barbara Boxer, in California. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah.

HAIM KATZ: . ..do you know who she is?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I know who...

HAIM KATZ: She's originally from, ah. . . New York I think. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: A friend of yours?

HAIM KATZ: No, no, no. She's not a friend of mine, but she, ah, I think she's in trouble.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yean, that's ah, in that race we're okay either way, 'cause Bruce Herschensohn, who she's running against, is Jewish, and he's very strong on our issues.

HAIM KATZ: Okay, but Herschensohn.. .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Herschensohn's a very conservative Republican.

HAIM KATZ: You know, he's come out of nowhere. He was like 30 points behind.. .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Right.

HAIM KATZ: He's come out of nowhere with it.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Because the truth of the matter is, she didn't always vote for foreign aid. We had a big meeting, I had a program in L.A. I had all four senatorial candidates there, and he ripped her apart. She has always voted against foreign and.

HAIM KATZ: What about the one, in ah, the one in. . . um, what's his name? I read it in the paper, it's just a shocker, politics is a crazy game. The black woman in Chicago. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Carol Moseley Braun?

HAIM KATZ: She was going to win by 50 points. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Oh it's down, she took the money, it's a big problem.

HAIM KATZ: It's a big problem with her. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: And we have a problem with another good friend. You know Daniel Inouye, from Hawaii he's one of our best friends AIPAC. It was Kasten-Inouye on the loan guarantees, Kasten-Inouye and Leahy.. .

HAIM KATZ: I heard, I saw it on, I know Inouye's in trouble because of, he sexually harassed his hairdresser. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We commissioned a poll and got some people, and I've got to raise $27,000 to pay for the poll . . . so I have, so what I'm trying to do is make a priority list, because I don't know how far you want to go. . . how old are your kids AIPAC by the way? . . . You had three children that could write checks, do they have their own checking accounts?

HAIM KATZ: Yes.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Oh, so that's not going to be. . .

HAIM KATZ: How old do they have to be?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: They can't be one year old.

HAIM KATZ: I mean, could they be 18, 17?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Sure, no problem, so they could make, nobody's going to bother you, but if you had infants, a four-year-old, let's say, it's not a contest.

HAIM KATZ: Let me tell you, I was planning, I was planning to, to . . . Inouye, by the way, is in real trouble? He's been there forever. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah! Well, we might lose him. There's been such a sea change, such trouble this year, I can't believe all our friends AIPAC that are in trouble. Because there's an anti-incumbency mood, and foreign aid has not been popular. You know what I got for, I met with [U.S. Secretary of State] Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear. . .

HAIM KATZ: Right.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.

HAIM KATZ: Such as?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: $700 million in military draw-down, from equipment that the United States Army's going to give to Israel; $200 million the U.S. government is going to preposition materials in Israel, which Israel can draw upon; put them in the global warning protection system; so when if there's a missile fired, they'll get the same advanced notification that the U.S., is notified, joint military exercises - I've got a whole shopping list of things.

HAIM KATZ: So this is from Baker?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: From Baker and from the Pentagon.

HAIM KATZ: So, not so, not.. .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Why did he do it, you know, why did he do it? Last year I was a bum. This year I said look Jim, we're going to fight on the F-l5s. Israel doesn't want to fight, I said, but some people on it are going to come up on the floor of the Senate and the House and they're going to fight. If you'll do this, I think I can hold them back. But you've got to do it right away. They didn't want to fight. I said, "You don't want a fight before the election. It's going to hurt Bush. We don't want a fight before the election. We don't want to fight at all. Why can't we work something out?" So we cut a deal. You can't repeat this.

HAIM KATZ: You're right. But you met with Baker. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Personally.

HAIM KATZ: Personally. Because you know, he's the one who cursed, who cursed the Jews.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Of course, do you think I'm ever going to forgive him for that?

HAIM KATZ: Unbelievable. I said...

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Do you think I could ever forgive Bush for what he did September 12th a year ago? What he said about the Jews for lobbying in Washington?

HAIM KATZ: Do you think that Baker has a legitimate concern for the Jews? From what I hear, do you think he's anti-Semitic?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I wouldn't go so far as to say that. He's a pragmatic businessman, he's a very tough lawyer. He does whatever it takes.

HAIM KATZ: And that's why.. .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: If we didn't have an election this year, you would get [unintelligible] from him.

HAIM KATZ: Let me ask you a quick question. Just a quick question here. You know Perot, you know, I'm telling you this is scary. I don't know what you think of Perot, but if Perot hadn't backed out, I watched the debates. I thought Perot did marvelous in the debates.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: He doesn't know how to govern. He's not going to make it. And there was an incident where his daughter was going out with a Jewish professor at school and he said, "I wouldn't have my daughter marry a Jew."

HAIM KATZ: So Perot, they say that if Perot hadn't backed out in July, and if he would have gotten himself a good running mate, you know . . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: He wouldn't win, but it would go to the House of Representatives. The Democrats would win in the House of Representatives.

HAIM KATZ: So if it goes to the House, the Democrats would win for sure.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: For sure.

HAIM KATZ: Okay let me ask you, last question and then I'll be happy to meet with your New York people. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: You know, you sound like my kind of guy. How old are you?

HAIM KATZ: Forty-two.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: You're a kid.

HAIM KATZ: I'm not a kid, I'm 42. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I'm 63, you're a kid.

HAIM KATZ: I wish I was...

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We'll have to get you involved. I like you, we have a lot to talk about, about real estate, you know, I have so many great activities going on at AIPAC, you ought to think about coming to some of these things. I'll have a dinner this fall. I'll have 18-20 senators there. I run programs in Washington. We just had a, I had at Ted Kennedy's house last month kosher dinner. I brought foremost caterers down. I had 60 people on the couch for dinner. Last year, I did it in Al Gore's house.

HAIM KATZ: Right.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Those are the things you should be getting involved in and knowing what's going on. . .

HAIM KATZ: Let me just ask you about Clinton. I want to tell you, you may not believe this, but I think that if Perot. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah, he would've given us a hard time. What's the name of your company, what do you do business as?

HAIM KATZ: We do business as HAIM KATZ, Inc.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: HAIM KATZ, Inc.?

HAIM KATZ: Right.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Do you have a street address?

HAIM KATZ: Sure. 621 Beach 129th Street, Belle Harbor, Queens, New York, 11694.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah, because on my computer you only show a post office box. This is your house? You work out of your house?

HAIM KATZ: Yeah, out of an office in the house. . . Look, Mr. Steiner...

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: David. My father's Mr. Steiner.

HAIM KATZ: David, let me just ask you about Clinton. Honestly, what do you feel about Clinton?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Well, I've known Bill Clinton for seven eight years. I think he's got to be a lot better than George Bush. . . we have a lot of people in there. But he doesn't need money, he really doesn't need money. I'm a trustee of the Democratic National Committee. We collected $63 million for him so far.

HAIM KATZ: Who's collected $63 million?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: The Democratic National Committee and the Clinton campaign have raised $63 million.

HAIM KATZ: So they've already raised $63 million, so they don't need money.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: No, we need money, like we got a guy, Byron Dorgan, in North Dakota, who's going to be very good for us and we need money to make sure that he gets in. We've got people like that, because [unintelligible], whatever you give them would be a tickle on the elephant's behind. But when you give $5,000 or $10,000 to Bob Kasten, that's very meaningful.

HAIM KATZ: Let me ask you, I understand what you're saying. Clinton, when Clinton first started running a year ago, did he need money at that time?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yes he did.

HAIM KATZ: I mean, did you help him out, 'cause that's the time. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I personally am not allowed, as president of AIPAC, to get involved in the presidential campaign, because I have to deal with whoever wins. You know, I've got to go see Bush if he's there, but I helped him, we raised over a million dollars for him in New Jersey.

HAIM KATZ: For Clinton?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: For Clinton.

HAIM KATZ: And this was when, in the beginning?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: In the beginning, yes. After he won, before the convention.

HAIM KATZ: This is before the convention?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Oh sure.

HAIM KATZ: Okay, let me ask you, you know, T

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We've also raised for other guys who are running too, because they're friends AIPAC. Harkin, the senator, you know you have to be with everybody.

HAIM KATZ: Let me ask you, [talks about getting cheated in business by Gentiles]. Let me ask you, Clinton, if he becomes, I mean what will he do for Israel, better than Bush, if he becomes, I know Bush gave you a hard time, this and that. ..

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I'II tell you, I have frienDavid Steiner AIPAC on the Clinton campaign, close associates. Gore is very committed to us.

HAIM KATZ: Right. Clinton if he, have you spoken to him?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I've known Bill for seven, eight years from the National Governors Association. I know him on a personal basis. I have friends AIPAC. One of my friends AIPAC is Hillary Clinton's scheduler, one of my officer's daughters works there. We gave two employees from AIPAC leave of absences to work on the campaign. I mean, we have a dozen people in that campaign, in the headquarters.

HAIM KATZ: You mean in Little Rock?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: In Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs. We have friends AIPAC. I also work with a think tank, the Washington Institute. I have Michael Mandelbaum and Martin Indyk being foreign policy advisers. Steve Speigel "we've got frienDavid Steiner AIPAC" this is my business.

HAIM KATZ: I understand, David.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: It's very complicated and the more you get into it, you'll love it. You sound like a smart guy.

HAIM KATZ: I'm a smart guy, but I have a, maybe because I'm more orthodox than you are, I've had bad experiences with Gentiles. Let me ask you, you know what "tachlis" means?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah, sure.

HAIM KATZ: From a practical point of view, if Clinton wins the presidency, and I'm sure he will, I hope so at least, what will be the benefits to Israel better than Bush? From a very practical point . . . I mean, you just told me that Bush gave you everything you wanted. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Only, not everything, at the end, when we didn't want the F-l5s, that's a terrible thing.

HAIM KATZ: Selling the F-l5s? If Clinton is elected. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Let me tell you the problem with the $10 billion in loan guarantees, right? We only have the first year. We have authorization from Congress, but it's at the discretion of the president every year thereafter, so if Bush is there, he could say, you know, use it as a club, you know. 'If you don't give up Syria, I won't give you the money. If you don't give up the Golan Heights.' It's at the discretion of the president. And that's why we need a friendly president and we have Bill Clinton's ear. I talked to Bill Clinton.

HAIM KATZ: And Bill Clinton has made a commitment that if he's elected . . . ?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: He's going to be very good for us.

HAIM KATZ: And he'll go ahead with the loan guarantees?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We didn't talk about that specifically, listen, I didn't ask him that, but I have full confidence that we're going to have a much better situation. He's got Jewish friends AIPAC. A girl who worked for me at AIPAC stood up for them at their wedding. Hillary lived with her. I mean we have those relationships. We have never had that with Bush. Susan Thomases, who's in there, worked with me on the Bradley campaign. We worked together for 13 years. She's In there with the family. They stay with her when they come to New York. One of my officers, Monte Friedkin, is one of the biggest fund-raisers for them. I mean, I have people like that all over the country.

HAIM KATZ: So, I mean from a practical point of view. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: He's going to be with us.

HAIM KATZ: I don't say, this business, you say, Bush only went ahead with the loan guarantees for one year.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We only have. It's mandatory they give us the $2 billion for one year. After that it's subject to the discretion of the president.

HAIM KATZ: You mean the other $8 billion?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: That's correct. On an annualized basis.

HAIM KATZ: Also, I heard that. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: They don't have to give it to us.

HAIM KATZ: But if Clinton is elected. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC:... feel reasonably certain we're gonna get It.

HAIM KATZ: He's made that commitment?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Well, he said he's going to help us. He's got something in his heart for the Jews, he has Jewish friends AIPAC. Bush has no Jewish friends AIPAC.

HAIM KATZ: Right.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Reagan had something . . . meshuga, but at least he had a commitment. He knew Jews from the film industry, he was one of the best guys for us. He had an emotional thing for the Jews. Bush doesn't have it. That's what it is really, if you have a feeling for our people, for what we believe in. Bush is, there's a man with no principles. Absolutely no principles.

HAIM KATZ: I heard something about, but I never really understood it, with the scoring. One of my frienDavid Steiner AIPAC told me there's a difference in the scoring, but I don't understand. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Scoring is like points that you pay.

HAIM KATZ: So let's say, if Bush is elected on the loans . . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: No, we've got the scoring arranged, it's four and a half percent. It's all done.

HAIM KATZ: That's all done, even with Bush?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Even with Bush. I've got that worked out.

HAIM KATZ: So that's all done.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: It's in the bill. It's all passed. He signed the bill. It's a matter of law.

HAIM KATZ: So it's already four and a half percent?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We could've had it less, but then we couldn't. . .

HAIM KATZ: And Clinton, if he was president, he would give...?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: He could not change it, you cannot change it.

HAIM KATZ: No, but I'm saying, if he was president now, before the bill was signed, he would've given you the four and a half percent. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I would've gotten less.

HAIM KATZ: I'm sorry?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I would've gotten it cheaper.

HAIM KATZ: How much? Even two percent?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah, we thought we were going to get two percent. But Rabin gave it away.

HAIM KATZ: You mean Rabin didn't bargain as good as he could have?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: That's right.

HAIM KATZ: Unbelievable. So, if Clinton is elected, that will be the best. ..

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I think that will be the best we could do.

HAIM KATZ: You know, I just want to tell you one last thing. Do you have parents that come from Europe?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Yeah, of course, from Glolitzano, near Krakow. ,

HAIM KATZ: You're kidding, your parents are from Krakow?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Near Krakow.

HAIM KATZ: Guess what?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: You too?

HAIM KATZ: My parents are from Krakow.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Well, we're not from Krakow, but from near Krakow. My mother's from Rudnick, my father from Gruns, near Tano. Do you know where Tano is?

HAIM KATZ: Yes. Let me tell you. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC .. don't have many left. Everybody got

HAIM KATZ: Let me tell you. The same with me. Let me tell you, my parents were the only ones who came out. Let me tell you, my. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: You're a Holocaust survivor?

HAIM KATZ: Yeah, no, not me, my parents.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: That's some experience, I've got two cousins, I've got one in Israel and one in France that came out of Mauthausen, I'll tell you, and everybody else dead on my father's side, in Russia. I just brought six of them from KosHaim Katzent to Israel last year.

HAIM KATZ: Right. Let me tell you that, you know what my father always says? My father was a rich man in Poland, and he says, he says, "Economic power is very good. You have to have money, but if you just have economic power and you don't have political power. . ."

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: "You've got nothing."

HAIM KATZ: You've got nothing.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: If we had AIPAC in the '30s and '40s, we would have saved millions of Jews. We would have the political power. But Jews were afraid to open their mouths. They didn't know how. HAIM KATZ: AIPAC started after WWII?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Oh, sure.

HAIM KATZ And if you would have had AIPAC in the

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I feel we would've saved a lot of Jews. HAIM KATZ: And Franklin Roosevelt, he could've done a lot better?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Sure, he could. The Jews never opened their mouths. They were afraid. We're not afraid. They can curse me out, I don't care if they hate me, just as long as I get what we need for our people.

HAIM KATZ: So if you had a little lamp, a wishing lamp and you could wish for either Bush, Clinton or Perot. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Clinton.

HAIM KATZ: Clinton all the way? And in terms of Israel having political power, between the three candidates, the one who will give us the most political power?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Clinton is the best guy for us.

HAIM KATZ: He's the best one.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I hope you're serious about what you told me.

HAIM KATZ: I am, I'll tell you this [tells a long anecdote about David Souter promising to oppose abortion as a nominee and then reversing himself on the Supreme Court]. So I wish we had a Jewish candidate for president.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I don't think the country's ready.

HAIM KATZ: If the country was ready, is there any Jewish candidate...?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC:I wouldn't venture to say anything.

HAIM KATZ: You know who? I don't know him, I've never met him, Joe Lieberman.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Oh, I'm very friendly with Joe. I'm having dinner with him Monday night.

HAIM KATZ: Let me tell you, I think Joe Lieberman would have, uh, would have, if he wasn't Jewish, that's the only problem he has. He's highly respected.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I'd like to see him on the Supreme Court.

HAIM KATZ: If Clinton is elected, has he told you who he's going to put on the Supreme Court?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We're talking now. We don't have no commitments yet. We're just negotiating. We're more interested right now, in the secretary of state and the secretary of National Security Agency. That's more important to us.

HAIM KATZ: If Clinton is elected, who do you think will be secretary of state?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We don't know yet, we're negotiating.

HAIM KATZ: Who are you hoping for?

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I've got a list. But I really can't go through it. I'm not allowed to talk about it.

HAIM KATZ: But you figure, God willing, if Clinton's elected . . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: We'll have access.

HAIM KATZ: You'll have access and you'll have a good input into who's secretary of state.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: I do believe so.

HAIM KATZ: And the other position is. . .

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: National security adviser.

HAIM KATZ: Those are the two critical positions.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Right.

HAIM KATZ: Gotcha. Well, David, thanks for talking with me.

W: And we're going to get together next week. I hope you'll have your checkbook ready.

HAIM KATZ: Will do.

DAVID STEINER AIPAC: Okay, thanks.

HAIM KATZ: And let me ask you about the real estate. . . [more talk about irrelevant issues].

Well Zip- all those rich guys only got rich by supplying the public with what the public want at the best rates surely? That's evolution. That's the struggle for existence.

Could your side not shower your representitives with larger quantities of wampum?
Doesn't having representitives who are influenced that way not demonstrate a breakdown of your educational system

Like Bob Dylan said, and he's Jewish when he wants to be, -

"Money doesn't talk, it swears". Over 40 years ago.

Shows you how naive ideas about free market forces are eh?

Dollar 2.08105.