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New roll-out (propaganda campaign) for war with Iran?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 12:21 pm
Was it as bad as that George?

I only got as far as "one of the country's most knowledgeable and reliable reporters".
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 12:56 pm
I'll confess that I almost choked on that self-congratulatory phrase as well. However, detecting hints of Blatham's malady in the prose, I continued on - only in the interest of possibly helping this amiable but wrong-headed guy.

Clearly there is some common contagion there.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 02:41 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
What a deceptive bit of posturing that was!

In the first place this "most knowledgable and reliable" reporter failed to answer the question - did she think that a Bush Administration attack on Iran was likely? Instead she launches into a rif about a supposed "military revolt" and refusal to carry out a mission which she implies, but does not say. the Bust Administration plans to order.

Her position is thus the same as Blatham's. She wants to have it both ways and castigate the Administration for supposed intentions she cannot demonstrate exist, and, at the same time, deny she made the accusation. She deceptively uses an hypothetical attack to suggest that the military will revolt and refuse the mission (hardly likely prospects), and will no doubt piously deny that she has any evidence that the Administration actually indends such a venture.

This sort of grotesque and deceptive rationaization is usually seen only among unthinking 'true believers' of some doctrine or fixed point of view - and not among those who rationally attempt to deal with the inconsistencies and contradictions of the real world we inhabit.


So I guess it is time for you to answer my previous question...Do you hold it certain that this administration will NOT launch an attack against Iran?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:01 pm
I'm not sure where georgeob gets his information, but it seems there are more than just a few media around the world that thinks Bush is planning an attack on Iran.


Bush 'is planning nuclear strikes on Iran's secret sites'

By Philip Sherwell in Washington
Last Updated: 1:44am BST 11/04/2006

Alec Russell: So is America going to bomb Iran?
Jack Straw: Iran attack would be 'nuts'

The Bush administration is planning to use nuclear weapons against Iran, to prevent it acquiring its own atomic warheads, claims an investigative writer with high-level Pentagon and intelligence contacts.

President George W Bush is said to be so alarmed by the threat of Iran's hard-line leader, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, that privately he refers to him as "the new Hitler", says Seymour Hersh, who broke the story of the Abu Ghraib Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal.

Some US military chiefs have unsuccessfully urged the White House to drop the nuclear option from its war plans, Hersh writes in The New Yorker magazine. The conviction that Mr Ahmedinejad would attack Israel or US forces in the Middle East, if Iran obtains atomic weapons, is what drives American planning for the destruction of Teheran's nuclear programme.

Hersh claims that one of the plans, presented to the White House by the Pentagon, entails the use of a bunker-buster tactical nuclear weapon, such as the B61-11, against underground nuclear sites. One alleged target is Iran's main centrifuge plant, at Natanz, 200 miles south of Teheran.

Although Iran claims that its nuclear programme is peaceful, US and European intelligence agencies are certain that Teheran is trying to develop atomic weapons. In contrast to the run-up to the Iraq invasion, there are no disagreements within Western intelligence about Iran's plans.

And last week, the Sunday Telegraph reported a secret meeting at the Ministry of Defence where military chiefs and officials from Downing Street and the Foreign Office discussed the consequences of an American-led attack on Iran, and Britain's role in any such action.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:19 pm
A Commander-in-Chief would be foolish, and remiss in his duty, if he ruled anything in or anything out. When one is rattling sabres one doesn't rattle the one in a velvet sheath.

When an option such as the one being discussed here is considered the experts in the field will be on view. Other options being discussed have other experts, also on view, but their options aren't dramatic news.

When rattling this particular sabre one would wish it to be heard.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:22 pm
spendius wrote:
A Commander-in-Chief would be foolish, and remiss in his duty, if he ruled anything in or anything out. When one is rattling sabres one doesn't rattle the one in a velvet sheath.

When an option such as the one being discussed here is considered the experts in the field will be on view. Other options being discussed have other experts, also on view, but their options aren't dramatic news.

When rattling this particular sabre one would wish it to be heard.


You think it's appropriate to threaten to use nuclear bombs in an offensive manner, against a country which has not attacked our country?

Cycloptichorn
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:26 pm
Even I don't think the US decider (or the US military) is pathological enough to use a nuke, even the bunker buster sort. Nor is Israel. Nor is Iran or India or Pakistan etc. Ownership of nukes is for deterence and nationalist esteem. The problem re Iran gaining that capability is NOT that they'll use it but rather that military action against them will become considerably more complicated and unlikely. but I'll read Hirsch's piece when it is available, if only because his writings have proved considerably more reliable than, say, george's.

Tonight, Hardball is running a segment on the question of whether the US administration is intending to launch an attack against Iran. That's good. Get the topic out and into broader discourse.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:40 pm
For anyone interested, James Galbraith in the NYRB...
Quote:
...Of all the unintended consequences of the Iraq war, Iran's strategic victory is the most far-reaching...

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20651
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 03:42 pm
Lost in the Roar: War Alarms Drowned by Beltway Bloodlust
Written by Chris Floyd
Friday, 28 September 2007
"I got my hammer ringin', baby, but the nails ain't goin' down."
-- Bob Dylan


Hammerblows of truth keep falling on the Bush Regime's propaganda campaign for war against Iran, which has been built up out of allegations so specious and shoddy that they make the manifold deceits of the Attack Iraq carnival look like gospel truth. But far from doing any damage to the engine of death now rolling toward Persia, the hammers are not even being heard above the roar.

Of course, it is actually inaccurate to refer to the "Bush Regime's propaganda campaign." As we have noted here before, the Democratic-led Congress has already overwhelmingly swallowed the Bush case for war - the Senate even accepted the Regime's mendacious casus belli unanimously. And this week, the Democrats went even further in adopting aggression against Iran as their own cause, when a majority of them joined with the obedient goose-steppers of the GOP in support of the Kyl-Lieberman amendment, which effectively if not officially authorized military action against Iran by declaring the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps a "foreign terrorist organization" and tying it to attacks on American soldiers in Iraq. The measure accepted at face value the proven mendacities and manipulations of Bush war propaganda, offering a selection of carefully-filtered testimony from the sainted General Petraeus (whom the Senate has declared literally sacrosanct, with its recent passage of an amendment "strongly" condemning any one who exercises their right of free speech to question "the honor, integrity and patriotism" of "any member of the armed forces" and Petraeus in particular). The Democrats have made it clear where they stand on aggression against Iran: alongside - or even in advance of - the war criminals of the Bush Administration.

(For a devastating take on the latest confirmation of Bush's criminal intent to launch a war of aggression against Iraq - the newly released transcript of the talks between Bush and then-Spanish leader Jose Maria Aznar just before the war - see Juan Cole's blistering piece: The War Crime of the Century. One central point of the transcript is Bush's admission that he had turned down Saddam's offer to go into exile - one of several offers Iraq put on the table to avoid war before the invasion, including an offer to hold free, internationally-supervised elections and allow heavily-armed foreign troops to conduct WMD inspections. But Bush wanted war; and the war came. Cole's conclusion is damningly true: "[Bush] had a real offer in the hand, of Saddam's flight. He rejected it. By rejecting it, he will have killed at least a million persons and became one of the more monstrous figures in recent world history.")

Now this is the man whom the Democrats are so slavishly eager to support on Iran. This is the man whose minions they so willingly believe about Iran, having already been lied to in precisely the same fashion about Iraq, by precisely the same kind of honorable, patriotic men of unquestionable integrity. (Colin Powell, anyone?) This is beyond cravenness, beyond cowardice, beyond incompetence, beyond even the most bitterly tragic farce. No, something else is at work here. As we have noted before - echoing the powerful arguments of Arthur Silber - the Democrats are doing this because they want to.

It's the same reason they supported the invasion of Iraq; the same reason they supported Bush's obscene tax cuts for the rich; the same reason they supported the outrageous whitewash of the 9/11 investigation; the same reason they championed the "Bankruptcy Bill" put the screws to working people and the poor; the same reason they supported "Defense of Marriage" bills that legitimize hate and penalize love; the same reason why they rolled over and played dead when not one but two presidential elections were stolen from them. It's because they too, like the Bush and his ilk, worship at the altar of money and power. They too believe that the wealthy and well-connected should order the earth for their pleasure, through war, loot, terror, fraud, rapine - by any means necessary. Their "honor" depends solely on how well they serve this cause, not on how well they uphold their Constitutional responsibilities or live up to the ideas they espouse. (See Silber again for more on this.)

If you oppose aggressive war, if you oppose the unbridled ravages of Money Power, if you stand for the Constitution and the rule of law, then there is no hope to be found in these national Democrats - because they are on the other side. They demonstrate this every day - witness the spectacle at the recent Democratic debate, when the three Establishment-anointed "leading" candidates - Clinton, Obama and Edwards - each said they could not guarantee to stop America's perpetration of the murderous war crime in Iraq by the end of their first term. Think of that. Think of someone watching a vicious thug savagely beating a child, over and over, pounding the child into bloody goo - then declaring that if they chase the thug away and take his place, they will go on beating the child, year after year after year after year.

Similarly, these "serious" candidates refuse to "take any options off the table" in regard to Iran. (Clinton, by the way, voted for Kyl-Lieberman's virtual authorization for aggression; Obama courageously skipped the vote.) Yet as both Gareth Porter and Scott Ritter demonstrate in detail, none of the charges leveled in the amendment - which is of course just a parroting of the Bush Regime's case for war - have been proven; many of them have been disproven. The International Atomic Energy Agency, for example, essentially agrees with Iran's position that the "nuclear case is closed;" after the most exhaustive investigation in the agency's history, the IAEA has "finally assembled enough data to enable them to close the books on the Iranian nuclear program, noting that all substantive questions have been answered and that contrary to the speculative assessments put forward by the Bush administration, it appears that Iran's nuclear program is, in fact, dedicated to permitted energy-related activities," as Ritter notes.

Once again, something else is at work beneath the public rhetoric. Ritter again, on the charges that Iran's covert Quds Force is directing violence in Iraq:


But fiction often mirrors reality, and in the case of Iran's Quds Force, the model drawn upon by the U.S. military seems to be none other than America's own support of anti-Iranian forces, namely the Mujahedin el-Khalk (MEK) operating out of U.S.-controlled bases inside Iraq, and Jundallah, a Baluchi separatist group operating out of Pakistan that the CIA openly acknowledges supporting. Unlike the lack of evidence brought to bear by the U.S. to sustain its claims of Iranian involvement inside Iraq, the Iranian government has captured scores of MEK and Jundallah operatives, along with supporting documents, which substantiate that which the U.S. openly admits: The United States is waging a proxy war against Iran, inside Iran. This mirror imaging of its own terror campaign against Iran to manufacture the perception of a similar effort being waged by Iran inside Iraq against the U.S. has been very effective at negating any Iranian effort to draw attention to the escalation of war-like activities inside its borders.


Ritter also notes the most sinister development growing out of the visit of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to New York: the concentrated, deliberate effort across the Establishment to tie Iran to 9/11. Once again, Hillary Clinton was in the forefront, declaring her horror that the Iranian leader would want to pay his respects at Ground Zero; the "liberal media" giant CBS News weighed in also. Everywhere was heard the refrain "terrorist state, 9/11, terrorist state, 9/11" - the kind of crude hatemongering that even Josef Stalin might have found too blatant. We know that the myth that Saddam Hussein was connected to 9/11 was the clinching argument for many if not most Americans who supported the invasion of Iraq; certainly, it was the chief motivator for the many U.S. soldiers in the invasion force who told admiring reporters that they were there "as payback for 9/11." The same conflation is being used again, against Iran, and is being insinuated and disseminated by the same players: the serious, respectable American Establishment: the federal government, Congress, the Democratic "opposition," the "liberal media," and right on down the gilded line.

And despite intimations that some military brass are resisting a new act of aggression - not out of moral principle, evidently, but on the practical grounds that it might break the already overstrained armed forces - it must be remembered that the chief mouthpieces relaying the Bush propaganda about Iran's direct involvement in Iraq have been…military brass. As we noted here the other day, "the Bush Regime ruthlessly purges officers who question the Leader's maniacal agenda or stand up too strongly for the honor and well-being of their troops." When Bush and Cheney want to pull the trigger, suitable generals and admirals will be found.

The hammers keep ringing from truth-tellers like Ritter, Silber, Porter, Jon Schwarz and others -- but the nails ain't goin' down. And a house held together by nothing but lies cannot stand.
http://www.chris-floyd.com/
Are we living in a civilized world?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 05:19 pm
http://www.nysun.com/article/63561

Quote:


I will not tolerate an aggressive attack upon yet another country. I don't think it's a stretch to say that reprisals would be in order.

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 05:24 pm
Bush doesn't care about the "reprisals." He wants his day in the sun before he leaves office - with a higher rating than they've been for the past couple of years.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 06:08 pm
That assertion has about the same validity as the one about the SF gathering being a HUGE success.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 06:12 pm
The reason for the "hits" ( a bit aggressive is a word like that) is that A2Kers were curious as to whether you looked as daft as you sound c.i.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 06:24 pm
spendius wrote:
That assertion has about the same validity as the one about the SF gathering being a HUGE success.


I was there, and it was a HUGE success, so stop being a f*cking twit, mkay?

Cyclopichorn
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 06:34 pm
Everybody there thinks it was a HUGE success. It couldn't possibly have been a dismal failure as it would reflect on them negatively.

It looked a bit naff in the pics I thought.

Are you witholding some of them?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 06:41 pm
spendius wrote:
Everybody there thinks it was a HUGE success. It couldn't possibly have been a dismal failure as it would reflect on them negatively.

It looked a bit naff in the pics I thought.

Are you witholding some of them?


It certainly wouldn't have reflected badly upon me; I did absolutely nothing to organize the event. But CI and GeorgeOb1 did, and they worked hard at providing a fun experience to people who came a long way to met up. It makes me angry that you would denigrate the work that they did.

Certainly, everyone who was present at the event agreed that it was a fun time, and there was no shortage of laughter and smiles to go around, as well as discussion and political debate from various viewpoints.

More so then any actual facts about the event; I can't figure out why you thought it was appropriate to take a piss at CI after his last comment, in a personal fashion, for something he'd worked hard on. I consider it to be neither gentlemanly or appropriate. But, what's worse then that, is that it was immaterial to the topic; a non-sequitur, a weak one, from someone who isn't a weak poster. Unbecoming.

Cycloptichorn
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 08:09 am
spendius
Did everyone get their invitation to spendius' graduation from kindergarden?

BBB
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 08:37 am
He got through?! I'll have to rethink my relationship with the fellow now.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 09:39 am
BBB wrote-

Quote:
Did everyone get their invitation to spendius' graduation from kindergarden?



Oeeeeow!! Hoeeew wwewwie witty.

Look Cyclo

Judging by these exchanges, and many like it, the American way seems to be one that can dish it out but can't take it.

I would need to spend a solid month insulting c.i. to go anywhere near getting even with him for the insults he has sent winging my way.

And the number of times I've been accused of being off topic by people who are regularly off topic, like the last two posts on here, is legion.

And I didn't even insult c.i.

The President of F.I.F.A. might be forgiven for claiming that the World Cup Finals had been a "HUGE success" if no-one had got killed, there were less than 500 arrests and all the cheques had cleared the banks.

The very language we speak needs to be protected from that sort of self-flattering hyperbole in relation to a bit of a do in SF. Let that stuff get a hold, esepecially from men, and it won't be long before you cease to speak English at all. When c.i. says that the Iraq conflict is a "HUGE disaster" it will be perceived as carrying the same level of meaning as "HUGE success" does. At such a point he is starting to cease to communicate at all.

I never said that you didn't have a good time but there's no way an event like that deserves such an overblown description and I would be quite surprised if George didn't agree with me. He's a conservative.

And your response adds credibility to my contention that A2K meets create "friendships" which are then inimical to open and honest debate due to a reluctance to criticise properly those one has met on those occasions when criticism is justified.

If, say, George ends up allowing c.i. to lambast the conservative cause without comment as a result of a short bit of socialising with him amidst scenes of bonhomie then George has been gagged. Any responses being toned down constituting partial gagging.

And I wasn't off topic.

I was saying that the assertion-

Quote:
Bush doesn't care about the "reprisals." He wants his day in the sun before he leaves office - with a higher rating than they've been for the past couple of years.


had no validity, which is on topic, and I simply glanced around to find a comparison to reinforce my assertion and the signature struck me as being a suitable one. That it also served other purposes, like winding you SF gatherers up, was a touch of decoration like when Delia Smith plopped a cherry on top of the cake with an exqisite flourish.

Having read Catch 22 my instinctive response to easy to do initiatives is generally one of wary suspicion. "What's the bugger up to" is near enough to the Yossarian style as makes no difference.

And I was also trying to console the other 67,700, or so, A2K members who had missed out on this "HUGE success" and all the fun accompanying it, which, unfortunately, the pictures I saw failed to convincingly portray.

And maybe provide the recalcitrants with a smirk or two.

Don't take it so hard Cyclo. Indignation is unbecoming in a man.

And what a stark contrast there is between c.i.'s signature (which has had its day) and that which graces George's posts which has not had its day and represents a timeless truth as opposed to c.i.'s onanistic bullshit.

You make it sound as if you are shoulder to shoulder with c.i. on-

Quote:
Bush doesn't care about the "reprisals." He wants his day in the sun before he leaves office - with a higher rating than they've been for the past couple of years.


which I think is a disgraceful thing to say. c.i. has no evidence for it other than his own assumption,( back to Onan), that Mr Bush has no ethical principles, for that is what it means, and I think that is the complete opposite of the truth.

If meeting c.i. and "having a laugh" with him and thanking him for all his efforts leads to a genteel reticence to criticise such a remark, one on the record too, then my views about gatherings are amply justified. Had c.i. said that in some circles he might have been shoved up against a wall and kneed in the goolies a few times.

The thread title is itself not dissimilar in this regard.

I sometimes wonder what you would do if Mr Bush told you to shove the White House up your arse and went back to his ranch to goof off. It is hardly imaginable that the thought has never crossed his mind.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Sep, 2007 11:06 am
Quote:
I sometimes wonder what you would do if Mr Bush told you to shove the White House up your arse and went back to his ranch to goof off. It is hardly imaginable that the thought has never crossed his mind.

My goodness. You cannot be serious.

One assumes, first of all, that thoughts do cross the fellow's mind. It wouldn't be a long traverse, after all.

Secondly, most americans and almost everyone else in the world would throw out a rousing cheer if the fellow did precisely what you suggest in the first sentence.

You seem an independent-minded fellow, spendi. Yet a consistent theme runs through your statements here. You are a toadie to power, to authority. One would expect an independent mind to make discernments, to enjoy making discernments. But you look much happier when you are just kissing those rear ends of the folks who like you kissing their rear ends (and then spreading the word at how good the taste is).
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