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New roll-out (propaganda campaign) for war with Iran?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:39 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Eventually, the Lancet will decide all the Iraqi's are dead, whether they are or not will not matter because the Lancet will have used statistics to prove it.

They will visit 3 empty homes and derive that because no one was home, they must be dead and then derive the sampling vs the population and that will be that.


Well, McG, your observation about the oldest peer-reviewed medical journal in the world is quite notable.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:42 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Eventually, the Lancet will decide all the Iraqi's are dead, whether they are or not will not matter because the Lancet will have used statistics to prove it.

They will visit 3 empty homes and derive that because no one was home, they must be dead and then derive the sampling vs the population and that will be that.


It would make such clear and obvious sense that a British medical journal would be out to falsify information regarding a matter with which it is entirely unconnected but that the Pentagon, whose operation these wars are, and who has a budget of many millions per year to ensure that American civilian opinion does not turn against their wars will tell you the correct figures.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:43 pm
http://michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/cflancet.jpg
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Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:46 pm
blatham wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Eventually, the Lancet will decide all the Iraqi's are dead, whether they are or not will not matter because the Lancet will have used statistics to prove it.

They will visit 3 empty homes and derive that because no one was home, they must be dead and then derive the sampling vs the population and that will be that.


It would make such clear and obvious sense that a British medical journal would be out to falsify information regarding a matter with which it is entirely unconnected but that the Pentagon, whose operation these wars are, and who has a budget of many millions per year to ensure that American civilian opinion does not turn against their wars will tell you the correct figures.


Thats a very good point. Waiting fo McGentrix to post a corrupt image...
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:46 pm
I love it when the Euro weenies and Canucks chirp in with their snippy commentary.

US Isolation would save us taxpayers what 50%?

You America BAshing is a tired act. Twisted Evil
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:50 pm
NATO Military Spending as a Percentage of GDP (2001)

Country % GDP Country % GDP
Turkey 5.0 Hungary 1.8
Greece 4.8 Netherlands 1.6
United States 2.9 Denmark 1.5
France 2.6 Germany 1.5
United Kingdom 2.4 Belgium 1.3
Czech Republic 2.2 Spain 1.2
Portugal 2.1 Canada 1.1
Italy 1.9 Luxembourg 0.8
Poland 1.8 Iceland 0.0
Norway 1.8

In 2001, Canada's defence budget ranked 16th in the world in terms of size.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 01:54 pm
Walter and Blatham, while I am sure you trust the Lancet to provide you with the truth you want to hear, other doubt the veracity of that truth.

Do you ever wonder why the Lancet has never provided anyone with the underlying data they used for their analysis?

A good read (for those that like statistics) can be found here.

Quote:
Roberts et al. (2004) claim that the risk of death increased by
2.5-fold (95% CI 1.6-4.2) in Iraq after the US-led invasion. I provide
evidence that, given the other data presented in their paper, this confidence
interval must be wrong.


Happy reading.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 02:03 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Walter and Blatham, while I am sure you trust the Lancet to provide you with the truth you want to hear, other doubt the veracity of that truth.


That might be. What would be your suggestion for a better, universal, peer-reviewed medical journal?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 02:09 pm
wikipedia has quite a thorough piece on the lancet studies and criticisms (including by G Burnham who worked on the piece McG quotes).

But I'll just quickly quote two bits...
Quote:
The Lancet surveys are controversial largely because their mortality figures are much higher than those in other (non peer-reviewed) reports that used different methodologies, including those of the Iraq Body Count project, the United Nations, and the Iraqi Ministry of Health. The Lancet surveys have been supported by many epidemiologists and statisticians, as well as the recent ORB survey. However, they were criticized by the US and Iraqi governments, the Iraq Body Count project, epidemiologists, demographers, Iraq-war journalists and others. See the sections below on "criticisms".

Quote:
The UK government, too, rejected the researchers' conclusions. In doing so, it did not mention the advice of the Ministry of Defence's Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Roy Anderson, who had called the study "robust" and its claimed methods "close to 'best practice' in this area, given the difficulties of data collection and verification in the present circumstances in Iraq", in an internal memo on the day the study was published, dated 13 October, 2006.[29][30]
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 02:15 pm
McG's above quote was more generally than only re these data.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 02:26 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McG's above quote was more generally than only re these data.


It was regarding this subject Walter.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 02:32 pm
Sorry. I misunderstood this in that case.

McGentrix wrote:
Walter and Blatham, while I am sure you trust the Lancet to provide you with the truth you want to hear, other doubt the veracity of that truth.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 02:34 pm
McGentrix wrote:

A good read (for those that like statistics) can be found here.

Quote:
Roberts et al. (2004) claim that the risk of death increased by
2.5-fold (95% CI 1.6-4.2) in Iraq after the US-led invasion. I provide
evidence that, given the other data presented in their paper, this confidence
interval must be wrong.


Happy reading.


Well, that was an interesting read, to be sure. Did you read it? I must say I'm no statistician, but I find it puzzling how someone make the case that including the statistical outlier, Fallujah, would actually show that mortality in Iraq had gone down since the invasion. I find that counter-intuitive to say the least. But like I said, I'm not statistician.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 08:24 am
Bernie wrote-

Quote:
And on the matter of whether these dipshits can be trusted (as if there's any question)..
Quote:
Scoop for Spanish Daily: Transcript of Private 2003 Bush Talk Promising Iraq Invasion

By E&P Staff

Published: September 26, 2007 8:00 AM ET

NEW YORK El Pais, the highest-circulation daily in Spain, today published what it said was the transcript of a private talk between President George W. Bush and Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar on February 22, 2003, concerning the coming U.S. invasion of Iraq. It took place at the ranch in Crawford, Texas.

The conversation took place on the President's ranch in Crawford, Texas. The source for the leak was said to be someone in the Spanish government.

Bush purportedly said he planned to invade Iraq inf March "if there was a United Nations Security Council resolution or not....We have to get rid of Saddam. We will be in Baghdad at the end of March."

He said the U.S. takeover would happen without widespread destruction.


It seems to me that the intemperate language used in the intro to describe a democratically elected government (twice) constitutes an attack on the American way of life which might be excused coming from someone who is not in receipt of the stupendous benefits the American way of life provides but not from someone who probably derives more benefits than the average American. Biting the hand that feeds.

It is also unnecessary and weakens the argument it purports to serve. In fact it may be a last resort for an argument that is running out of steam.

The quote itself is somewhat dubious containing as it does expressions such as "what it said was" and "The source for the leak was said to be someone" and "purportedly said". Any one of which is enough to measure the lightweight nature of the report which also might serve the function of Mr Bush having no further personal dealings with members of the Spanish government.

Further to that the expression which "it is said" Mr Bush used ;"We have to get rid of Saddam", gives the false impression that the policy is that of Mr Bush alone when in actual fact it is, or was, the policy of the whole administration for which Mr Bush speaks and takes responsibilty for and which had almost complete bi-partisan support as it also did in the UK.

The reasons the administration had come to such a conclusion, using an enormous array of expertise over a long period of time, are way above the heads and capacities of posters here.

PS- Saddam Hussein's rule by terror went way beyond gassing and beheading. Too evil to speak about in civilised company. And he was bringing his sons up to continue what he had set in train.

Principles requiring no sacrifice are skin deep.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 11:25 am
So, Walter, Blatham, did you read the link I posted regarding the Lancet survey?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 11:28 am
McGentrix wrote:
So, Walter, Blatham, did you read the link I posted regarding the Lancet survey?


Did not. I don't have the background to evaluate its merits.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Sep, 2007 11:30 am
McGentrix wrote:
So, Walter, Blatham, did you read the link I posted regarding the Lancet survey?


BTW, just so we're clear, the paper disputes the findings of the 2004 survey, not the 2006.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 11:16 am
Glenn Greenwald notes an interesting argument from Dana Priest...
Quote:
The Washington Post's Dana Priest, one of the country's most knowledgeable and reliable reporters, made this rather extraordinary observation yesterday about the prospects that the Bush administration would bomb Iran:

West Chester, Pa.: History seems to be repeating it self as the drumbeat for war with Iran, based on accusations not backed up by any facts, intensifies. Do you think the Bush administration will launch a war (perhaps sending only the bombers) against Iran and if they do what are the likely consequences for the Middle East?

Dana Priest: Frankly, I think the military would revolt and there would be no pilots to fly those missions. This is a little bit of hyperbole, but not much. Just look at what Gen. Casey, the Army chief, said yesterday. That the tempo of operations in Iraq would make it very hard for the military to respond to a major crisis elsewhere. Beside, it's not the "war" or "bombing" part that's difficult; it's the morning after and all the days after that. Haven't we learned that (again) from Iraq?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2007/09/28/military_iran/
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 11:18 am
BBB
http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104290
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Sep, 2007 11:35 am
What a deceptive bit of posturing that was!

In the first place this "most knowledgable and reliable" reporter failed to answer the question - did she think that a Bush Administration attack on Iran was likely? Instead she launches into a rif about a supposed "military revolt" and refusal to carry out a mission which she implies, but does not say. the Bust Administration plans to order.

Her position is thus the same as Blatham's. She wants to have it both ways and castigate the Administration for supposed intentions she cannot demonstrate exist, and, at the same time, deny she made the accusation. She deceptively uses an hypothetical attack to suggest that the military will revolt and refuse the mission (hardly likely prospects), and will no doubt piously deny that she has any evidence that the Administration actually indends such a venture.

This sort of grotesque and deceptive rationaization is usually seen only among unthinking 'true believers' of some doctrine or fixed point of view - and not among those who rationally attempt to deal with the inconsistencies and contradictions of the real world we inhabit.
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