1
   

Legalization of Marijuana

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 11:55 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Or, better written, You view people as risk-averse b/c it accords with your social and economic principles.

Not really. People just aren't very risk-acceptant, possibly because they're so bad at evaluating risk. Check out the work of Daniel Kahneman.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Surely you realize that the risk of damage or danger has rarely if ever stopped humans from doing something. I have a hard time understanding why, knowing the risk of lung cancer, significant amounts of people smoke; significant amounts drink; and significant amounts smoke pot. Their real-life actions do not meet your standard of being 'risk-averse.'

On the contrary. People who smoke either don't consider the risk, or else they tend to think that other people get lung cancer. That's because they will reconcile their own desires to fit with their perception of the likelihood of risk. In other words, the more a person wants something, the less risky it will be perceived. Given a more value-neutral problem, however, and people will tend to show just how risk-averse they really are. For instance, give people a choice of either receiving a dollar or a 20% chance at winning $5, most people will take the dollar, even though, over the course of five iterations, the payoffs will, on average, be exactly the same.

I've been watching "Ice Road Truckers" on the History channel. The show depicts people taking pretty big risks to make money.

People go rock climbing. People go skydiving. People speed. People drink and drive. There are people who gamble. There are people who make risky investments.

Clearly there are segments of the population that are not risk-averse.



Clearly there will be conflicts between the individual's right to liberty and society's rights to curtail behaviors that are harmful to the general welfare.

You have not made a case for protecting the general welfare, as you cannot show a significant potential for harm. Now you want to force people to be risk averse because that's the way they "should be?"


I think you've really got your head spinning on this one.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 11:59 am
Thomas wrote:
That depends on your definition of "applied". I have no problem that there exists an FDA testing new drugs for safety and efficacy. I have no problem when it approves or disapproves of drugs based on its findings. But I do have a problem that it's illegal to consume drugs the FDA hasn't approved of, and I do have a problem that there is a DEA enforcing the criminalization of non-approved drugs.

So, on the one hand, you approve of the FDA's work, and yet, on the other hand, you oppose laws that require approval of new drugs by the FDA. I suppose that, under a libertarian regime, the FDA would act as a non-governmental advisory body, sort of like Underwriters Labs, granting its "seal of approval" to drugs. For a variety of reasons (many of which we have discussed in other threads, and which I will not repeat here), I think that's bad policy in theory and unworkable in practice.

Thomas wrote:
I'm sure this is a profound and devastating critique of libertarianism, but I don't understand it. If the laws were permissive, as I wish they'd be, and if the people were risk-averse, as you think they are, then nobody would consume a drug the government deemed un-kosher. You and I would have no problem to discuss. But that's not the way it is. Laws against drugs exist precisely because without them, the people would take more risks with them than the government wants them to.

As I explained above to Cycloptichorn, people are rather bad at evaluating risk when it comes to their own desires. As we have seen in this thread, people who really, really want to smoke marijuana will downplay or ignore any evidence that shows that it may be potentially harmful. That's not surprising. I'm sure that there's not much talk of cirrhosis in the local tavern, either.

In calmer, more reflective moments and freed from those kinds of personal biases, the legislature makes laws that are supposed to protect people from those kinds of risks -- risks that the people themselves are often unable or unwilling to evaluate effectively. And the people, in general, accept that the legislature will act in what it perceives to be their best interests, even if they don't want the state to intervene. That's the democratic compromise in a nutshell. The people have accepted that, on occasion, the state will intervene to protect them from themselves (and that's also indicative of how people, in general, are risk-averse rather than risk-acceptant).

Thomas wrote:
I guess what I'm asking is: when you say that you view people as risk-averse, whom do you mean by "people"?

When I say "people" I mean "people." Surely there are a few examples of them in Germany too.

Thomas wrote:
What can I say? Admittedly, I don't have as much faith in the overall rationality of lawmakers as you enlightened absolutists do. But then I also haven't bought into the grand socioeconomic theory that is based on that assumption.

"Enlightened absolutists?" That's a good one.

Thomas wrote:
And when a conduct is potentially harmful, enlightened absolutists resort to the argument "when in doubt, criminalize it" -- because they think that people will gladly accept the risk that the government will imprison them for no good reason whatsoever. I refer you to the experience of blasphemers, sodomists, and trade unionists in 19th century America. Or exporters of wool (who committed a hanging crime) in 18th century England.

Yes, and some day we'll all find out that smoking is good for you and that spinach is a deadly killer. I'll just add that making the export of wool a capital crime was the result of a misguided economic theory. Times have changed so little over 300 years.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 12:02 pm
DrewDad wrote:
My point being, that Joe seems to be advocating a nanny-state.

If by "nanny-state" you are adopting the popular definition as "a description of the state whenever it prohibits me from doing something that I want to do," then no, I'm not advocating a nanny-state.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 12:05 pm
DrewDad wrote:
You have not made a case for protecting the general welfare, as you cannot show a significant potential for harm. Now you want to force people to be risk averse because that's the way they "should be?"

I'll make a deal with you: if you don't want to waste your time trying to understand my posts, then I won't waste your time by having you read my replies to your posts.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 12:24 pm
Quote:

As I explained above to Cycloptichorn, people are rather bad at evaluating risk when it comes to their own desires.


You've stated that this is your opinion, but have provided zero objective evidence that this is the case.

Quote:
As we have seen in this thread, people who really, really want to smoke marijuana will downplay or ignore any evidence that shows that it may be potentially harmful.


Really? I haven't seen any proponent of Marijuana on this thread discount the risk that it is potentially harmful. I have seen challenges to factually incorrect information which has been posted. But to equate this with 'ignoring' evidence that something is harmful is a little ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 12:32 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
You have not made a case for protecting the general welfare, as you cannot show a significant potential for harm. Now you want to force people to be risk averse because that's the way they "should be?"

I'll make a deal with you: if you don't want to waste your time trying to understand my posts, then I won't waste your time by having you read my replies to your posts.

I understand your posts just fine; you just don't seem to want to do the legwork to support your opinion. Or make them hold together, really. Everytime someone identifies a hole in your reasoning you just shift the topic.

Instead of strengthening your argument, it just makes you seem lazy.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 12:44 pm
DrewDad wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
You have not made a case for protecting the general welfare, as you cannot show a significant potential for harm. Now you want to force people to be risk averse because that's the way they "should be?"

I'll make a deal with you: if you don't want to waste your time trying to understand my posts, then I won't waste your time by having you read my replies to your posts.

I understand your posts just fine; you just don't seem to want to do the legwork to support your opinion. Or make them hold together, really. Every time someone identifies a hole in your reasoning you just shift the topic.

Instead of strengthening your argument, it just makes you seem lazy.


I couldn't agree more. This is the laziest argument I've ever seen you post, Joe, and I'm mystified as to why you keep at it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 12:50 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
You have not made a case for protecting the general welfare, as you cannot show a significant potential for harm. Now you want to force people to be risk averse because that's the way they "should be?"

I'll make a deal with you: if you don't want to waste your time trying to understand my posts, then I won't waste your time by having you read my replies to your posts.

I understand your posts just fine; you just don't seem to want to do the legwork to support your opinion. Or make them hold together, really. Every time someone identifies a hole in your reasoning you just shift the topic.

Instead of strengthening your argument, it just makes you seem lazy.


I couldn't agree more. This is the laziest argument I've ever seen you post, Joe, and I'm mystified as to why you keep at it.

Cycloptichorn


Sometimes this happens when you try to defend a position you do not actually believe in.

This issue brings that out in many people as they want to be "pro-drug-free-society", yet understand that THIS particuliar "drug" is basicly as harmless as many over the counter pain killers.

I know I am torn about this issue. So I guess I will just have to roll up another one and give it some more thought. Got any cookies? :wink:
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 12:56 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Everytime someone identifies a hole in your reasoning you just shift the topic.

Really? When did I do that?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 01:32 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Everytime someone identifies a hole in your reasoning you just shift the topic.

Really? When did I do that?

Perhaps you should re-read the thread, as you so often encourage others to do.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 02:18 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Chumly wrote:
On what pragmatic rationale do you base your view of at most favoring a decriminalization of marijuana usage if you are unable to quality and quantify the overall harm done in the present circumstances versus circumstances in which marijuana was legal?
I am unable to quantify the effects of legalized marijuana in this country because I don't know what those effects might be. And, I will hasten to add, neither do you or any other advocates of legalization. Any estimates that I could give would be pure guesswork, which is why I don't offer any. I cannot fathom why you are unable to understand that simple point.
Then as discussed by me but as yet unanswered by you: "If you cannot quality and quantify in a pragmatic rational manner, the overall harm done in the present circumstances versus circumstances in which marijuana was legal, then it would be logical to err on the side of freedom of choice, unless or until pragmatically obtained and assessed evidence strongly suggested otherwise, no?"
joefromchicago wrote:
As for the examples of other nations, such as the Netherlands, that have either legalized marijuana or have, in effect, stopped enforcing their laws against marijuana usage, their examples are interesting but not compelling. Different cultures yield different results. I imagine that if the Dutch had as many handguns as Americans the Dutch murder rate wouldn't be as high as the USA's.
I'm not at all convinced that your so-called "Different cultures yield different results" argument negates my argument that "some comparisons cannot be made between the overall harm done in the present circumstances versus circumstances in which marijuana is legal or less frowned upon". It's not as if the Dutch are Martians!

If you sincerely believe your "Different cultures yield different results" argument then you would be for a different sets of laws for different cultures, rather bizarre if we use Canada's Official Multiculturalism stance!
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 02:28 pm
I'm not sure whether anyone mentioned this, but the criminal justice/corrections industrial complex would be very upset were recreational drugs legalized.

Were such drugs legalized, just think of the money that would be freed up for drug rehab and educational programs.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 02:47 pm
Oops, I left out the beginning of my quote above "I am not wholly convinced some comparisons cannot be made……"
0 Replies
 
Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:19 pm
I was just a bit curious as to what side effects cannabis and marijuana has on the mind. One of the most common arguments I've heard is that it makes you drowsy and less able to to focus. Any truth to this you guys think? I don't mean while you are high, I mean long term.
0 Replies
 
Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:27 pm
More specifically I remember reading about tests done on fighter pilots. The results were that their reaction time was reduced. How severely, I do not recall.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:34 pm
A better question is how does imprisonment, a criminal record, seizure of your property, etc., affect your mind, body, and general well-being.
0 Replies
 
Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:37 pm
Advocate wrote:
A better question is how does imprisonment, a criminal record, seizure of your property, etc., affect your mind, body, and general well-being.


Haha, that is a good argument for banning it. -Because it's illegal.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:38 pm
Give the extreme state of awareness needed by fighter pilots and the oh-so-demanding conditions in which they must perform their near Herculean acts, I expect you could easily find innumerable influences that would decrease fighter pilot's efficacy from a spousal spat to a poor night's sleep to indigestion.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:40 pm
Coolwhip wrote:
I was just a bit curious as to what side effects cannabis and marijuana has on the mind. One of the most common arguments I've heard is that it makes you drowsy and less able to to focus. Any truth to this you guys think? I don't mean while you are high, I mean long term.


Not with me, but it does effect some people differently.
0 Replies
 
happycat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 03:42 pm
Coolwhip wrote:
I was just a bit curious as to what side effects cannabis and marijuana has on the mind. One of the most common arguments I've heard is that it makes you drowsy and less able to to focus. Any truth to this you guys think? I don't mean while you are high, I mean long term.


It helps me focus. It only makes me drowsy if it's late at night.

Way back when I was in college, I caught a buzz before an english class.
Our assignment was to take a painting - in my case it was a Mary Cassatt painting - and write a story about it and turn it in at the end of class.

I looked at the picture and just went at it, so to speak.

The next class everyone got their papers back....except me.

The professor discussed several of the stories that he'd read, and then went on to say that one paper was the best he'd ever gotten back in the 20 years he'd been teaching that course.
It was mine.
I remember doing a classic double-take.

If I smoke, I am much more artistically creative because I don't have the usual circus of thoughts going around in my head. I am more centered.

But, that's just the way I react to it. Others may have a completely different reaction because our brains are all different - it's just like any other medication; what works well for one person, may not work well for another.
0 Replies
 
 

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