1
   

Legalization of Marijuana

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 11:47 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You're the one who is determined to be as contentious a jerk as possible on this thread, so you get the special attention, Joe.

That's rich. My first post in this thread was greeted with a sustained, unprovoked, and frankly incomprehensible series of posts filled with invective and cheap insults. Your first post here accused me of playing games rather than being serious. And now you claim that I'm the jerk? Sorry, but I think your jerk-detector is set to "Selective."

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I haven't seen any evidence that people consider light drugs such as alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana to be 'less then trivial.'

I never said they did. Indeed, given the context of my remarks, I would have thought it obvious that I didn't think that people considered marijuana and other drugs to be non-trivial. It is their non-triviality that makes people adopt risk-averse strategies in dealing with them.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You respond with 'Fair enough. That's a minor point not worth debating.' It isn't a minor point, it's the entire point. You seek to portray those who look at marijuana and judge the risks to be worth the pleasure gained from its' use, as somehow folks who either aren't capable or just don't bother to think about the risks.

I never said that.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
But I'm not sure where you derive this idea from.

I'm pretty sure it came from your misreading of my posts.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It doesn't come from any data set, and is merely your personal opinion; unsuited for a conversation such as this, when you attempt to speak from authority, which is what you are trying to do whether or not you admit it.

I'm flattered that you continue to think that I am some sort of authority on the subject of marijuana. I don't know why you keep doing that in spite of my denials, but I suppose that's another thing that I won't be able to change your mind about.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I haven't seen you provide any data which shows the damages that marijuana or marijuana users have upon society as a whole.

First of all, no one asked me.

Second of all, I doubt that such data exist, given that any such damage to "society as a whole" is largely speculative.

Third of all, I already stated that I would not be providing data, since I am suspicious of all studies on the effects of marijuana. If you continue to insist on me providing data, then, I am afraid I will continue to disappoint you.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
The problems with abusing marijuana? The same sorts you would find with Tobacco. Increased emphysema and lung cancer risk. Reduced overall lung capacity. Probably some overall mental reduction over the course of years.

Thanks. You're the first advocate of marijuana on this thread who has acknowledged the potential effects of marijuana usage. Of course, you don't provide any evidence to back up your claim, nor do you set out the effects of marijuana usage on "society as a whole," but I forgive you these omissions.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I find your comment 'I suppose if I just printed some rubbish from NORML you'd be satisfied with that' to be rather insulting. Do you not believe I am capable of looking at this issue objectively, Joe?

I withhold judgment on that point.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why wouldn't you believe such a thing? Why is stuff from NORML 'rubbish?' I think this tone you've adopted for this thread is beneath you and harmful to your argument.

Your suggestions are appreciated and will be filed in the appropriate place.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 11:48 am
A few observations:

Chicago Joe is virtually alone in arguing against the legalization of marijuana. He cannot persuade the rest of us that grass should remain illegal, and he certainly can't be persuaded to change his own point of view. Nor should he.

It would seem to be a fruitless enterprise to continue the discussion indefinitely, but in the last page, or so, the discussion appears to be taking a different turn: How much authority should the Federal Government have over the private behavior of individuals? At what point should a balance be struck between individual and collective rights?

Addressing that question, Thomas offered:

Quote:
"I don't know that I can draw a sharp line. There will always be some amount of judgment involved. But for what it's worth, here is how I would try to reach that judgment:
1. I would start with a presumption of individual liberty -- of the government not governing.
2. I would allow this presumption to be rebutted under two conditions. A government intervention into individual liberty is non-oppressive if, and only if, two points are established with clear and persuasive evidence:

[a] the intervention is narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling public interest, under a conservative interpretation of "compelling". (Lilly-livered girlyman compellingness as in "achieving a racially diverse college student body" doesn't count.)

the intervention could not effectively be conducted on a lower level of government, or by the private sector.
As I said, this is not a bright line because it depends on the interpretation of terms like "clear and convincing", "compelling", "narrowly tailored", and "effectively". But it's a clear enough standard to decide my opinion on most policies. In particular, it's a clear enough standard to decide that current drug regulations fail the test."


That's a pretty good standard philosophically. I think most American Conservatives would agree with the notion that the Government should avoid meddling in the private affairs of citizens. In practice it's a bit more complicated.

Government has several important functions that transcend the private preferences of individuals and groups. We are a Republic, not a Democracy on the Athenian model, for good reason. Only when decision-making is restricted to small numbers can effective policy be formed. Our Constitution vests that decision-making function in the Congress, Executive and Judicial Branches. Congress has long been noted for its propensity to talk even critical measures to death, and far too often adopting legislation favoring one private interest against others. For many issues that actually works pretty well by slowing the rush to judgment, and watering down legislation that is certain to offend the voters back home who elected the representatives in the first place.

Up until the Twentieth Century, the Federal Government did pretty much adhere to the standard that Thomas gave above. Do-Gooders managed to get a Constitutional Amendment passed to make alcoholic beverages illegal, and modern organized crime became more powerful and dangerous to the body politic. Individuals and public officials flouted the law, graft and violence increased. It took another Constitutional Amendment to correct the situation, but the harm caused still lingers in our society.

To restore confidence in the system, FDR got a lot of legislation passed that involved the Federal Government in State, local and private affairs. The Supreme Court struck most of that legislation down as un-Constitutional, but the legislation was widely popular. That trend of involving the Federal Government in private and social affairs was accelerated by LBJ, and has become a touchstone of the Democratic Party and the American Left.

Much good has come from making the Federal Government pro-active. Without the strength of the Federal Government the Civil Rights Movement's successes might have been indefinitely postponed. Federal money pre-empted States and local jurisdictions in the construction of the infrastructure that has served us so well. Federal oversight has caused forced confessions and corrupt local police to declined. Businesses are constrained by extending Federal jurisdiction over private business practices. Federal law protects us against toxic foods, dangerous working conditions, and dangerous pharmaceuticals. Prejudices have been covered over by imposition of Politically Correct words and behavior. No one starves in this country, and Federal subsidies lighten the burden of countless poor and disadvantaged people. However much we have benefited by these laws, we have also given up much of our State, local and personal liberty.

In a Republic there will always be folks whose views are over-ridden. No one likes taxes, but taxes are essential to the effective maintenance of government. The policy choices for some government functions (inter-state commerce, military and foreign affairs, the postal service and the currency), all require prompt Federal decisions and a coherent national policy; that is ultimately the responsibility of the Executive. Those essential government functions must be funded, yet the tax dollars we all pay have to be shared out with other, less essential government functions. Many of those functions have become entitlements and the money to pay for them can't be touched. An army of bureaucrats to (more or less) administer government programs, and prevent fraud against the taxpayers, is necessary. We pay for our own velvet chains.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 12:15 pm
For those interested, several years ago, the Ottawa Citizen carried a really quite extraordinary series on the history of the 'drug war'. It is far and away the best journalism on the matter I have bumped into. http://www.cfdp.ca/ottcit.htm
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 12:22 pm
Thomas wrote:
I don't know that I can draw a sharp line. There will always be some amount of judgment involved. But for what it's worth, here is how I would try to reach that judgment:
  1. I would start with a presumption of individual liberty -- of the government not governing.

  2. I would allow this presumption to be rebutted under two conditions. A government intervention into individual liberty is non-oppressive if, and only if, two points are established with clear and persuasive evidence:

    [a] the intervention is narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling public interest, under a conservative interpretation of "compelling". (Lilly-livered girlyman compellingness as in "achieving a racially diverse college student body" doesn't count.)

    the intervention could not effectively be conducted on a lower level of government, or by the private sector.
As I said, this is not a bright line because it depends on the interpretation of terms like "clear and convincing", "compelling", "narrowly tailored", and "effectively". But it's a clear enough standard to decide my opinion on most policies. In particular, it's a clear enough standard to decide that current drug regulations fail the test.

As always, very interesting. But probably better handled in some other thread.

Thomas wrote:
The alternative being ... what? Emigrating, and be suppressed by a different government? Living on a boat on the ungoverned ocean, or in ungoverned Antarctica? Starting a bloody and futile rebellion against the government? I don't see in what sense one freely "chooses" to submit to any process of governing, including but not limited to the democratic process. Therefore I reject your implication that the democratic process per se increases the legitimate power of the government over me.

Isn't that a problem for your semi-Lockean view of natural rights? If the government doesn't govern on the basis of the (implicit) consent of the governed, what legitimacy does it have?

Thomas wrote:
Says you. I disagree. Briefly, Thomas Schelling -- whom you did read, and also appreciate -- has shown that commitment strategies can (before the fact) be an efficient means to utilitarian ends, even if after the fact you end up sometimes doing things that don't maximize utility. I believe that natural rights, along with a commitment to protect them, are such a game-theoretic commitment strategy. I think this is a utilitarian argument for natural rights -- even if some utilitarians, having died before Schelling was born, couldn't make it, and might have even disagreed with it.

Two comments:

1. Schelling's commitment strategies are bargaining strategies, not philosophic positions. Indeed, it's clear that the person employing a commitment strategy doesn't have to believe in the things to which he is committing.

2. Employing a natural rights position as a commitment strategy doesn't reconcile it with a utilitarian position. It just means that your natural rights position is a ploy, a mere strategem.

Thomas wrote:
Maybe. I can't think of an example where the government adopting libertarianism would lead to excessive government powers that you would like to restrain. If you can give me such an example, I may be able to give you a better answer.

No, I meant: does adopting libertarianism shield a government from adopting discredited economic theories?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 02:13 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
As always, very interesting. But probably better handled in some other thread.

Probably -- but you asked how I would draw the line. This was how.

joefromchicago wrote:
Isn't that a problem for your semi-Lockean view of natural rights? If the government doesn't govern on the basis of the (implicit) consent of the governed, what legitimacy does it have?

Not really. It only means it's unrealistic to retreat into a state of nature nowadays. Therefore the fact that people don't doesn't tell you that they consented to the institutions and processes governing their state.

joefromchicago wrote:
Two comments [on Schelling]:

Fair enough. I should have said that natural rights work out like a commitment strategy for achieving utilitarian goals, not that people consciously use them as such a strategy. Even so, it still means that utilitarianism and natural rights can be complementing, not conflicting concepts.

joefromchicago wrote:
No, I meant: does adopting libertarianism shield a government from adopting discredited economic theories?

No it doesn't. But it does shield society from having the government force discredited economic theories upon it.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 02:35 pm
blatham wrote:
For those interested, several years ago, the Ottawa Citizen carried a really quite extraordinary series on the history of the 'drug war'. It is far and away the best journalism on the matter I have bumped into. http://www.cfdp.ca/ottcit.htm

Thanks!
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 07:57 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Everytime someone identifies a hole in your reasoning you just shift the topic.

Really? When did I do that?

Perhaps you should re-read the thread, as you so often encourage others to do.

Or, in other words, you're just talking out of your ass.

I've learned not to try to teach a pig to sing.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 08:05 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

As I explained above to Cycloptichorn, people are rather bad at evaluating risk when it comes to their own desires.


You've stated that this is your opinion, but have provided zero objective evidence that this is the case.

Well, I'm not exactly sure why I have to post all of my evidence when the others here have not come under the same sort of scrutiny. I suppose if I just printed some rubbish from NORML you'd be satisfied with that.

In any event, economists have long known that people, in general, are risk-averse, particularly when the stakes are less than trivial. You can read Kahneman and Tversky on decision-making, like I did. Or, if you don't want to put the work into it, you can take a quick glance at some of these links:

link
link (.pdf)
link

I'll just repost my last rebuttal of your "people are risk-averse" argument.

Quote:
I've been watching "Ice Road Truckers" on the History channel. The show depicts people taking pretty big risks to make money.

People go rock climbing. People go skydiving. People speed. People drink and drive. There are people who gamble. There are people who make risky investments.

Clearly there are segments of the population that are not risk-averse.



Clearly there will be conflicts between the individual's right to liberty and society's rights to curtail behaviors that are harmful to the general welfare.

You have not made a case for protecting the general welfare, as you cannot show a significant potential for harm. Now you want to force people to be risk averse because that's the way they "should be?"


I think you've really got your head spinning on this one.


With the modification that "Now you want to force people to be risk averse because that's the way they 'should be?' " should probably read, "Now you want to force everyone to avoid risk because most people do so?"

What a schmuck.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 09:14 pm
Boycott Finn --- A-OK

Drugs are natural influencences.

Alternate states are to be be validated, unless the muddling exception alists express a problem,

We exist within
an aobserved context,and thenyou foul Darkness agents will twist out shadow.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 10:55 pm
I believe that while there are costs in the legalization of pot, all societies would enjoy a net benefit from the legalization of all forms of dope. In so doing we could destroy the illegal drug industries with all the harm they do to all societies, i.e., their corruption of our governments, the violence they perpetrate on our streets, etc.
The problem is that any government officer with the leverage to bring this about would be promptly murdered along with his family. The only way it could happen effectively is by a massive groundswell of public demand. Unfortunately we are not there yet.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2007 11:08 pm
As usual or a lot of times usual, agreeing with JLN. Haven't read Blatham's link yet.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 08:10 am
http://www.able2know.com/forums/images/avatars/170270478544389fc8d949f.jpg

This is Finn.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Boycott Finn --- A-OK

Drugs are natural influencences.

Alternate states are to be be validated, unless the muddling exception alists express a problem,

We exist within
an aobserved context,and thenyou foul Darkness agents will twist out shadow.

This is Finn on drugs.

Any questions?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 08:13 am
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 08:16 am
Thomas wrote:
Not really. It only means it's unrealistic to retreat into a state of nature nowadays. Therefore the fact that people don't doesn't tell you that they consented to the institutions and processes governing their state.

People have other options besides retreating into a state of nature. They can always go elsewhere. And Locke never required explicit acceptance of the social contract by all citizens in order for it to be binding on all citizens. Staying in a state, obeying its laws, participating in its institutions, all constitute implicit acceptance of the state's legitimacy to govern.

Thomas wrote:
Fair enough. I should have said that natural rights work out like a commitment strategy for achieving utilitarian goals, not that people consciously use them as such a strategy. Even so, it still means that utilitarianism and natural rights can be complementing, not conflicting concepts.

A utilitarian would subject natural rights to a utilitarian calculus. An advocate of natural rights, in contrast, would hold that those rights are inherent and inalienable, regardless of their utility. To me, those positions are fundamentally irreconcilable, no matter how you approach them.

Thomas wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
No, I meant: does adopting libertarianism shield a government from adopting discredited economic theories?

No it doesn't. But it does shield society from having the government force discredited economic theories upon it.

That's only if you believe that laissez faire libertarianism isn't a discredited economic theory.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 08:19 am
DrewDad wrote:
I'll just repost my last rebuttal of your "people are risk-averse" argument.

It didn't make any sense the first time. What makes you think it will make more sense the second?

DrewDad wrote:
What a schmuck.

Yet more sand. Yet another vagina.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 08:42 am
I have to say that I'm very surprised that Joe is the only one here who thinks it should remain illegal.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 09:06 am
joefromchicago wrote:
People have other options besides retreating into a state of nature. They can always go elsewhere.

If I force you to choose between chicken pox and small pox, and you prefer chicken pox, you still haven't freely consented to catch chicken pox, and haven't legitimized me in infecting you with them. Analogously, suppose you live in America and don't emigrate, because you think every other place is governed even more repressively. In this case, you have not freely consented to America's institutions, and haven't legitimized them to govern you. Not even implicitly. The most one can read into this kind of choice is that you consider America's institutions less illegitimate than others.

joefromchicago wrote:
A utilitarian would subject natural rights to a utilitarian calculus. An advocate of natural rights, in contrast, would hold that those rights are inherent and inalienable, regardless of their utility. To me, those positions are fundamentally irreconcilable, no matter how you approach them.

If you judge natural rights philosophers by the conclusions they reach in practice, you will find that this is not how they think. (Ayn Rand may be an exception, but then again I find her too intellectually dishonest to count as a proper philospher.) To give just one example, Hobbes, Locke and Russeau quite willingly approve of the government taking private property for the public good. More generally, I can't think of a serious natural lawyer who holds natural rights to be absolute -- and the limits to their scope generally fit quite nicely with the limits the utilitarian calculus would impose.

joefromchicago wrote:
Thomas wrote:
No it doesn't. But it does shield society from having the government force discredited economic theories upon it.

That's only if you believe that laissez faire libertarianism isn't a discredited economic theory.

No. Even if libertarianism was a discredited theory, the government's adoption of it still wouldn't force one upon the public. It would only fail to enforce a not-yet-discredited theory, passively permitting the people to act on the discredited one. That does make a moral difference to me.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 09:13 am
Montana wrote:
I have to say that I'm very surprised that Joe is the only one here who thinks it should remain illegal.

Aren't we an anarchistic bunch, heheheheheheeee? <passes along joint>
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 09:17 am
joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
I'll just repost my last rebuttal of your "people are risk-averse" argument.

It didn't make any sense the first time. What makes you think it will make more sense the second?

Sometimes rebutting nonsense requires nonsense.

Your argument boils down to "people tend to be risk averse, therefore we shall outlaw risky behaviors."

If people were really that risk averse, you wouldn't need to outlaw risky behaviors.

A gaping hole in your logic that one could toss all the ditchweed in Nebraska through.

Now, what part of this is nonsense?

joefromchicago wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
What a schmuck.

Yet more sand. Yet another vagina.

You need some new insults. That one wore thin the first time you used it.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2007 09:34 am
DrewDad wrote:
Your argument boils down to "people tend to be risk averse, therefore we shall outlaw risky behaviors."

If people were really that risk averse, you wouldn't need to outlaw risky behaviors.

As I understand his answer to me making the same point, his counterpoint is that people aren't just risk-averse -- they're risk averse without noticing that they are. That's why the government, knowing your true risk preference better than you do, can protect you from yourself by overriding your choice.

This is an internally consistent argument, even though I'm not convinced it's correct.
0 Replies
 
 

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