Quote:Cars and boats and planes can bring friends closer together;
trusting has nothing to do with it.
Cars and Boats can be a reason to bring people together David, but they are not something that brings people closer together.
Perhaps you have never experienced such a thing David, but that would only make my statement about trust untrue for yourself.
I have experienced and observed many times how trust is integral to bringing people closer together...so for me, and I daresay for the vast majority of humanity, what I said is true.
I would hazard a guess that the you are likely experiencing a similar problem in your discussion on love.
David - Not close is in proximity. Close as in understanding, empathy and humanity. Close in mindset and emotion.
OmSigDAVID wrote:[I have ridden the NYC subways at rush hour.
The people were 100% together; cud not get any closer,
but I did not trust any of them.
Trusting them did not even OCCUR to me, as a possibility.
David
As a native New Yorker I know there are people on the NYC subways that I can trust. Not many, but one can tell who one can trust after growing up in a city with a constantly changing population. And, in no way am I making innuendos about anyone's race or ethnicity. People I can trust come in all races, ethnicities, speaking any language. It's a willingness to empathize that I sense. This is an individual quality (empathy) that possibly in NYC it takes years to develop a (sixth) sense to discern?
Also, trusting strangers is different than trusting friends or even acquaintances, I believe. Really a separate paradigm in trust.
Okay, I have to respond.
I understand completely where David is coming from and what he is saying. We often think we have friends, relatives and those that we trust (high level of confidence) to be there in a time of need, but this is not so. There are any number of reasons for this, which do not matter. The fact remains.
I also don't think it is necessary to trust in order to love. If anything, understanding that others can't be trusted (To have or place confidence in; depend on. To expect with assurance; assume. 3. To believe..) actually makes it EASIER to love. Knowing you can't trust (rely, believe in or high level of confidence in) others removes the possibility of hurt, anger, disappointment or bitterness IF you really accept that this is true.
Without those negative feelings brought on by a realization that there is no trust where you thought there was trust, one can continue to love and accept others, knowing that they are only human and that such behavior can be expected. It's okay.
There is another side effect. I'm finding that knowing that others can't be trusted is actually liberating. It free's one from all of the negatives associated with grudges, disappointment and resentment, but it also means
a) you can accept that you too are only human and will break "trust" of others and yourself and that's okay
and
b) you better get your **** together... fast.
sure, squinney. i hear that loud and clear. everybody will falter. i will fail people i love at time, too.
BUT from all that it does not follow that it is better to never trust anyone ever. I am of course speaking for myself only. It doesn't even follow that I will not trust the person that failed me ever again. Because, as you said, we are after all only human and err every now and then. If i accept it, I can also trust again.
Love, as we were talking about before, is a complicated term. Sure trust is not needed to fall in love.You know, those first few months, butterflies in the stomach, exhilaration... But when it's a 'for life' relationship - marriage or partnership, it makes little sense to me without trust. After all, that's part of the reason why we enter into such bonds (PART, I said) - because we do trust each other enough that we are putting faith in the other person to be a good husband and father and companion and sould made. That IS trust. And once that trust is broken, relationship falters. OK, I see how love may not falter, you can love with a broken heart, too, but the relationship will at least suffer if not fail. My mother is a family therapist. Most of the divorces are because of broken trust and and what it brings: disappointment, hurt, anger, sadness.... So perhaps I should have framed it better as trust being crucial to a long term relationship, and that I fully stand by and believe in. If I don't trust someone, I will not marry him. Period.
despite whatever problems and feelings squinney and I may be dealing with right now, I find myself pretty much in agreement with her post, as I often do.
P.S.: how we see trust is also highly subjective depending on where we are in life. Some 3 years ago, when I was scraping myself off the floor after an 8 years long relationship failed, I too claimed I will never trust anyone again and how empowering that is. Today I see that was a self-defense mechanism at the time when I felt particularlly hurt and vulnerable. Today I think differently and today I am a far happier person than three years ago. And I believe faith in people is a huge part of that happiness.
PPS: NOTHING removes the possibility of hurt. If you love, you will get hurt. Whether trust is or is not involved. Again, speaking for myself.
Miller wrote:...The way to go home...
...i'll go. right after you find the white radiance of eternity.
P.P.P.S: I would not want to be in a relationship (whether friendship or partnership) with someone who does not trust ME. It's a both way road. If you don't trust me, we won't accomplish much together. Friend is someone I trust. Otherwise it's just an acquaintance.
i can agree with most of your post.
some folks surely do believe in love at first sight. i, too, believe that it is possible, though i rationalize far too much to really make that be a 'me' thing. i do need to trust a person i get romantically involved in.
trust is also (back to the definition i posted earlier) a faith in someone's moral integrity. that doesn't preclude the already mentioned premise that everybody will fail you at some point. sure they will. to err is human. but when and he recognize the mistake, the moral integrity remains intact.
all of my close friends and my family are people i put my full trust in. They are Good People and if the ever err, I forgive them... and I do hope that will be reciprocated towards me when I make a mistake. We do seem to agree that that's a choice. So that's the choice that i make.
