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Is It Wise to TRUST Our Friends ?

 
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 05:02 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
....well trust and friendship are related, not identical. neither is 'nazi', 'communist', and a 'socialist'. i wouldn't want a nazi for a friend either. or a racist, or a xenophobe.... but that has to do with values other than trust.

I hold the communists in abhorence, worse than any.
David


i grew up in a communist regime. "communists" jailed my father. but "communists" were technically also all the small people that had to join the communist party. life is complex, david. i don't 'abhorr' any group of people. i just don't understand some individual people and their actions. but their ideology would only be a part of my dislike of them. people are complex, too.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 05:06 pm
Yesterday, I discovered that a guy with whom I have had very pleasant conversations is one of Rush Limbaugh's Dittoheads. Yes, Dagmaraka, life is complex. I feel obliged to "dislike" him but I can't. I'm so bad.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 05:45 pm
That's where the power of 'AND' comes in (instead of 'but')

I liked him (he was very personable) AND I dislike some of his beliefs (obviously what you dislike isn't ALL of his beliefs)
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 08:10 pm
Smile
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 09:45 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Yesterday, I discovered that a guy with whom I have had very pleasant conversations is one of Rush Limbaugh's Dittoheads. Yes, Dagmaraka, life is complex. I feel obliged to "dislike" him but I can't. I'm so bad.

I accept about maybe 60% of what he says.
I attended one of his TV shows, years ago, and gave him a book.
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 09:47 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
....well trust and friendship are related, not identical. neither is 'nazi', 'communist', and a 'socialist'. i wouldn't want a nazi for a friend either. or a racist, or a xenophobe.... but that has to do with values other than trust.

I hold the communists in abhorence, worse than any.
David


i grew up in a communist regime. "communists" jailed my father. but "communists" were technically also all the small people that had to join the communist party. life is complex, david. i don't 'abhorr' any group of people. i just don't understand some individual people and their actions. but their ideology would only be a part of my dislike of them. people are complex, too.

How did your father make out ?
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 02:26 am
make out what? again. life is not black and white. my father WAS a communist himself untill 1968, the invasion of the Warsaw troops. Then it became obvious to him it's a farce. He refused to sign the obligatory document that it was a 'friendly help' from allied troops. So he was let go from the University where he taught, as was my mother. Then in 1976 he signed the Charter 77 - again, he thought, everybody would do just the same, as all the document asked for was the government to abide by the international agreements (International Civil and Political Rights Covenant, Int's Social, Economic and Cultural Rights Covenant and the Helsinki Final Act) that it ratified. They didn't. Instead, they pursued all the signatories. There were over 1,000 in Czech part of Czechoslovakia. There were only 3 in Slovakia. My father was one of them. So growing up in that time was....interesting.Jail, house checks, arrests... No need to go in detail.
But... what relates to this thread.... I have always had FULL trust in my father. I esteem him. I value his judgment. I have inherent belief in whatever he chooses to think or do. It conditions my deep love for him. I cannot understand how one cannot talk about love without trust. It just doesn't exist that way for me.
0 Replies
 
mushypancakes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 04:25 am
I find myself relating to Dag's and Amigo's posts. Well, in some regards.
In some ways, I think Dag and Amigo have been priveledged in ways a lot of people never have been.

I can certainly count betrayals, and letdowns, and times when there was no one there to turn to. My experience has been a bit different in some ways.
There have been lots of convincing reasons and experience to tell me DON"T EVER TRUST AGAIN!

But that IS a sucky way to live. I tried it. There really isn't a way to describe it except to say it seems to go against what it is to be human. We're social animals, and inter-dependent.
Anyone who tries to fool themselves that it is possible to be either totally independent or totally dependent is going to suffer some big pains.

Friendship, lovers, partners without trust: that doesn't feel right to me. It's not what I want, and it doesn't fill me up.

My love grows in trust, and it shrinks in suspicion or lack of trust. It's the way I am geared.

The thing about trust with another person (two way) is that it presents a unique opportunity to share parts of yourself without inhibition. Without second thought. Let it all hang out in its glory.

I do not want to do that with people I do not trust. There have been times that I have - and it proved a less satisfying experience for me than otherwise.

I have also found that the more I trust myself, and am secure in myself, and in my strength of enduring any betrayal or loss or hurt; the more I am willing to trust others when they give the opportunity to do so.

Again, it comes to respect to me. And trust and respect go hand in hand, for me. I can't (won't) respect someone to the same degree if I do not share trust with them.
I can't (won't) trust someone who I do not respect.

Others operate differently, and I'm starting to understand that. That's fine.
We all get to choose for ourselves, and I like the way I have chosen.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 04:59 am
I can't help but notice that David hasn't responded specifically to Dag's repeated (and very astute and relevant) comment about life being complex, and people being complex, and not lumping people into an amorphous caricature we can "abhor".

What about that, David? Isn't saying something like "I abhor communists" (or christians, or atheists, or caucasians, or...) sort of ignorant?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 05:25 am
dagmaraka wrote:


Quote:
make out what?

Like surviving
U answered that question below.

Hopefully, there was no torture.
The commies were not above torture and murder.


again. life is not black and white. my father WAS a communist himself untill 1968, the invasion of the Warsaw troops. Then it became obvious to him it's a farce. He refused to sign the obligatory document that it was a 'friendly help' from allied troops. So he was let go from the University where he taught, as was my mother. Then in 1976 he signed the Charter 77 - again, he thought, everybody would do just the same, as all the document asked for was the government to abide by the international agreements (International Civil and Political Rights Covenant, Int's Social, Economic and Cultural Rights Covenant and the Helsinki Final Act) that it ratified. They didn't. Instead, they pursued all the signatories. There were over 1,000 in Czech part of Czechoslovakia. There were only 3 in Slovakia. My father was one of them. So growing up in that time was....interesting.Jail, house checks, arrests... No need to go in detail.
But... what relates to this thread.... I have always had FULL trust in my father. I esteem him. I value his judgment.


I have inherent belief in whatever he chooses to think or do.

Does this mean that u believe whatever he chooses to think ?
i.e., he selects your beliefs ?

( so if I convince your dad to become a l'aissez faire free marketeer
libertarian gun-loving hedonist, then u will join our philosophical committments ? )



Quote:

It conditions my deep love for him.
I cannot understand how one cannot talk about love without trust.
Love is intense good will,
along with knowing that the object of your love
might act inimically to your interests;
e.g., an extreme example to make the point, Andrea Yates' children
might have loved her, while suspecting that she might murder them.





Quote:
It just doesn't exist that way for me.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 06:23 am
I think sometimes the real answers are always questions.

I think this is the answer your looking for,

"is it wise NOT to trust your friends?"

If i didnt have friends i would quite simply have no reason to live.
whether omniscient , omnipotent, filthy rich, super good looking etc, i wouldnt want any of it if it meant that i would lose my friends and be alone forever.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 09:27 pm
OGIONIK wrote:

Quote:
I think sometimes the real answers are always questions.

That is illogical,
in that questions do not convay information.


Quote:

I think this is the answer your looking for,

"is it wise NOT to trust your friends?"

That is acceptable.
The answer is yes.

Quote:

If i didnt have friends i would quite simply have no reason to live.

Its good to have friends,
but if u know what 's good for u,
u will avoid TRUSTING them.




Quote:

whether omniscient , omnipotent, filthy rich, super good looking etc,
i wouldnt want any of it if it meant that i would lose my friends and be alone forever.

If u had all those things,
u 'd not be alone long.
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2007 09:38 pm
snood wrote:
I can't help but notice that David hasn't responded
specifically to Dag's repeated (and very astute and relevant) comment
about life being complex, and people being complex, and not lumping people into an amorphous caricature we can "abhor".

What about that, David? Isn't saying something like "I abhor communists" (or christians, or atheists, or caucasians, or...)

sort of ignorant?

Ignorant of WHAT ?
Ignorant of the fact that the commies
tried to enslave the whole world, with ME in it ?
That is being well informed of historical fact.


Point of information:
Do u apply the same reasoning and the same criteria
to the nazis ? ( I notice that u did not mention the nazis )

David





P.S.:
The Rosenbergs might have been very COMPLEX;
that does not diminish the fact that thay richly DESERVED every volt we shot thru them.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 01:43 am
OmSigDAVID wrote:
OGIONIK wrote:

Quote:
I think sometimes the real answers are always questions.

That is illogical,
in that questions do not convay information.


Quote:

I think this is the answer your looking for,

"is it wise NOT to trust your friends?"

That is acceptable.
The answer is yes.

Quote:

If i didnt have friends i would quite simply have no reason to live.

Its good to have friends,
but if u know what 's good for u,
u will avoid TRUSTING them.




Quote:

whether omniscient , omnipotent, filthy rich, super good looking etc,
i wouldnt want any of it if it meant that i would lose my friends and be alone forever.

If u had all those things,
u 'd not be alone long.
David


LOL but i would, if i had those things those people wouldn't be "friends"
Am i to take it that you enjoy not having friends? i couldnt stand not having friends, it would be like playing basketball, by yourself.
Competing against yourself, no suprise birthday parties etc.. etc..

that sounds like a horrible life.

BTW, life is illogical. There is absolutely no way something can come from nothing. even if god existed he would have simply had to "arrive" from nothing. the fact that you and me are posting on this forum is illogical.
Razz
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 04:04 am
OGIONIK wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
OGIONIK wrote:

Quote:
I think sometimes the real answers are always questions.

That is illogical,
in that questions do not convay information.


Quote:

I think this is the answer your looking for,

"is it wise NOT to trust your friends?"

That is acceptable.
The answer is yes.

Quote:

If i didnt have friends i would quite simply have no reason to live.

Its good to have friends,
but if u know what 's good for u,
u will avoid TRUSTING them.




Quote:

whether omniscient , omnipotent, filthy rich, super good looking etc,
i wouldnt want any of it if it meant that i would lose my friends and be alone forever.

If u had all those things,
u 'd not be alone long.
David


Quote:
LOL but i would,
if i had those things those people wouldn't be "friends"

NO.
U 'd find out how FRIENDLY people can BE,
and a friend in need, is a friend indeed.




Quote:
Am i to take it that you enjoy not having friends?

No.
I have friends,
I just don 't TRUST anyone.
Friendship and trust r like flounders and submachineguns,
but friends like one another ( i.e., bear one another good will )
and enjoy one another 's company.





Quote:
i couldnt stand not having friends,
it would be like playing basketball, by yourself.
Competing against yourself,

no suprise birthday parties etc.. etc..

I don 't want THAT to happen.


Quote:
that sounds like a horrible life.


Quote:
BTW, life is illogical.

By definition, that is impossible.



Quote:

There is absolutely no way something can come from nothing.
even if god existed he would have simply had to "arrive" from nothing.
the fact that you and me are posting on this forum is illogical.
Razz

U don 't understand the concept of Logic.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 04:42 am
YES, I DO.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 04:52 am
so you hang out with people you dont trust? how does that work? do you bar them from entering your house, never let them know any real information about you? never give them access to your belongings?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 04:13 pm
OGIONIK wrote:



Quote:
so you hang out with people you dont trust?

Yes.
I don 't trust anyone, and
I hang out with people
( i.e., enjoying fine dining and beautiful entertainment together ).


Quote:
how does that work? do you bar them from entering your house,

Yes.
Thay don 't ask to get in.
Its not a problem.
( except for one nosey pervert; she kinda snuk in, years ago ).



Quote:
never let them know any real information about you?

That depends on whether I choose
to keep it confidential, or not.

Quote:
never give them access to your belongings ?

Well, I 've shown them some of my guns and some of my old gold coins,
occasional books and miscellany.
David
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 05:04 pm
David,

Do your friends consider you : a best friend, a good friend, a friend, or just someone they hang out with?
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Aug, 2007 05:08 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
OGIONIK wrote:



Quote:
so you hang out with people you dont trust?

Yes.
I don 't trust anyone, and
I hang out with people
( i.e., enjoying fine dining and beautiful entertainment together ).


so, to summarize: you choose not to have friends. Which is fine, just sad (to me).
0 Replies
 
 

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