Is It Wise to TRUST Our Friends ?

dagmaraka wrote:

P.S.: how we see trust is also highly subjective depending on where we are in life. Some 3 years ago, when I was scraping myself off the floor after an 8 years long relationship failed, I too claimed I will never trust anyone again and how empowering that is. Today I see that was a self-defense mechanism at the time when I felt particularlly hurt and vulnerable. Today I think differently and today I am a far happier person than three years ago. And I believe faith in people is a huge part of that happiness.

First, this is not about a current situation in my life which has been established as "can't be discussed here." This has been my understanding / philosophy on "trust" for some years now and I guess David just brought it forward through this thread.

Second, Yes, where we are in life determines our level of trust in others. When you were scraping yourself off the floor a few years ago and vowing to never trust again you were probably doing so out of a need to preserve your 'self' and likely with feelings of anger, resentment and a few doses of self pity. You recognize that now. We've all been there. Not pretty or productive... UNLESS we learn the lesson. And the life lesson includes NOT having that reaction to broken trust because it had a high probability of occurring from the beginning as David's friend said.

What I am talking about goes beyond the situational or individual relationship, although it applies there too. In a wider picture, it is the knowing of human nature and that we all behave / interact in ways that will get the result we need for ourselves. What we need is not always a positive or even consciously known, but it does guide our behavior. If one finds that behaving in a given way will result in what they desire or need and weigh that with the need to retain anothers trust, often times the personal need will win out. We all do that on some level, (often without knowing we are making that choice) and at the same time we all would likely score ourselves as highly trustworthy and someone in whome others could believe.

A baby cries because it has a need for its thirst to be satisfied. The parent responds by providing a bottle and the baby learns to trust the parent. When the same child is two and cries for a drink, (hopefully) the parent will say "Your sippy cup is on the table if you want a drink." Independence and self reliance is taught, and trust is reinforced by the parent having drawn the drink and made it reachable. When that child is 24, it is best for the parent to have taught him trust in himself (rather than trust in the parent) to provide his own drink. Some re-teaching may be necessary early on, but at some point the parent is doing the child no favors in continueing to be trusted/ relied upon/ or for the child to have a high degree of confidence that the parent will be there.

When you Know not to place your trust in others or believe in them, really know it and live it, you can accept it in a more loving way FOR YOUR SELF when someone doesn't behave as you had trusted (had a high degree of confidence that they would), and in a more loving way for the other person because they have not disappointed. You can accept it as having had some level of probability of happening due to human nature and avoid being on the floor. And, yes, you can even continue to love the other person. Parents and children experience this dynamic almost daily.

As adults, placing belief and trust in ourselves rather than others makes for better relationships with everyone we interact with in life. Trusting in others and believing in them takes AWAY from rather than giving to the other person in the relationship.

I could list any number of examples on this forum. Littlek's sister trusted that she would be there forever and ever for her. Selfish, right? Linkats parents trusted that she would make life decisions based on placing their needs above her own. You may trust that littlek will pick you up if your car breaks down 30 miles away, but what if she is on her way out the door for a date? Are you disapointed when she has to say that you need to call someone else? Maybe not the first time, but what if she continues to have other things going when you need her? You, being Dag, would likely learn to fix your own car, but others would continue to be disappointed and allow themselves to feel that littlek could bot be trusted to be there when they need her. How fair is that to littlek?

How many posts in the relationship and marriage section deal with broken trust and coming to grips with haviang wrongly placed faith in others? All?

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Well, squinney. You can list plenty of negative examples. I can list plenty of positive examples. What do we prove? Didley squat.

I agree with the first half of your post. What I read in the second half,and correct me if I'm wrong is: don't expect anything and you won't be disappointed. That, to me, is extremely inefficient and it's also a perfect green light to avoid solving problems in relationships. I could not live with such low faith in people.

Whatever I said so far also has nothing to do in trusting oneself. I did not address that at all and never did i say to trust others INSTEAD of in my own capabilities. No way. I believe, and in fact teach others in trainings, that only once you fully believe in your own capabilities and know yourself, are at peace with who you are - with all the good and the bad thigs that are a part of you, can you truly trust, love (marriage, friendship as I spoke of before) and help others.

Trusting people is a risk. It takes courage. The fact that it's a risk does not mean that it's stupid. One young businessman in India once told me, after we were teasing him about how "naive" was about people (he firmly believe there is good in everyone and treated every last person that way): "It is not important to me if I get cheated once, or twice, or many times. That cheating is not a statement on my stupidity, but on their character. I will lose some money, but I will still be at peace with myself."
I might not be quite as trusting as he is, but I did learn an important lesson from him. Trusting someone is also about myself, my deepest core, being in touch with my emotions and beliefs. And, like I said, I'll choose that route anytime. And believe me, my trust was broken plenty in my life.

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squinney wrote:

How many posts in the relationship and marriage section deal with broken trust and coming to grips with haviang wrongly placed faith in others? All?

Precisely, that's what i was talking about before. When trust is broken, relationship fails or at least suffers. Hence, maintaining trust is important in relationships. that takes work for both partners. but what you're suggesting is to go into it... without trust at all? how? i can't even imagine how i would live next to someone (i can't say WITH someone, cause it really would just be NEXT to someone) that way.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Quote:
i can agree with most of your post.

some folks surely do believe in love at first sight. i, too, believe that it is possible,
though i rationalize far too much to really make that be a 'me' thing.
i do need to trust a person i get romantically involved in.

trust is also (back to the definition i posted earlier)
a faith in someone's moral integrity.

I believe that it is possible to love someone
who is known to be devoid of moral integrity.

About 30 years ago, I had a young lady, named Marilyn, living with me.
Ofen, in the morning, while I was dressing for court,
she 'd hit me up for tiny amounts of money for her day 's minor expenses.
She said: " Daaaaaaaavid, will u loan me a little money ? "
( She used to itemize. )

I gave it to her; Y not ? Insignificant.
Sometimes, I paid her with a large bill,
and she stole the change, and bought illegal drugs with it.
I expressed my disapproval ( never got angry, nor berated her ) because those drugs r unhealthy, addiction, etc.
( I have never taken non-medicinal drugs. )
I was indifferent to the microamounts of cash,
but I was fond of her, anyway.
The integrity issue did not interfere in my emotional relationship
toward her, as a friend.

Quote:

that doesn't preclude the already mentioned premise that everybody will fail you at some point. sure they will. to err is human. but when and he recognize the mistake, the moral integrity remains intact.

all of my close friends and my family are people i put my full trust in.

U trust them to do WHAT ?

Quote:

They are Good People and if the ever err, I forgive them...

Yeah.
That can be FUN.
I did it.

Quote:

and I do hope that will be reciprocated towards me when I make a mistake.

I have learned to put little stock or confidence in GRATITUDE.

Quote:

We do seem to agree that that's a choice.
So that's the choice that i make.

Good luck with it.
David

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well, and good luck to you.
I would not live with someone who steals from me, whatever amounts, however insignificant. it's a matter of principle. but if it didn't bother you, well, whatever floats your boat.

i don't have to trust my friends "to do something". i just trust them. if you need to, feel free to read the definition again. ii trust their intentions, i trust their moral values which are in sync with mine, i trust them with my property and i know they care about my well-being. i simply trust them. it's a complex of things.

trust makes relationships complete to me. i would not want to be on a look out constantly.

but i have to work. spent far too much time here today. besides, i said all that i deem important before and now i have to start repeating myself in responses, and that ceases to be a worthwhile effort to me.

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dagmaraka wrote:

P.P.P.S: I would not want to be in a relationship
(whether friendship or partnership) with someone who does not trust ME.
It's a both way road.
If you don't trust me, we won't accomplish much together.
Friend is someone I trust. Otherwise it's just an acquaintance.

I have noticed that ( when the subject comes up for discussion, which is not ofen )
some people take it as an offense, when I don 't pledge to trust them.
Sometimes, thay ASK.

I tell them, in the fullness of candor, that I trust NO ONE.

If thay don t like it,
its too bad; that 's how it IS.

David

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which is totally fine. it just means we could not be friends in the real life.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Well, squinney. You can list plenty of negative examples. I can list plenty of positive examples. What do we prove? Didley squat..

Well, then, I didn't explain it very well. My view is actually quite positive because it allows others that you love and care about the freedom to live without guilt or burden from their decisions to live up to or not live up to your trust or belief in them.

dagmaraka wrote:

I agree with the first half of your post. What I read in the second half,and correct me if I'm wrong is: don't expect anything and you won't be disappointed. That, to me, is extremely inefficient and it's also a perfect green light to avoid solving problems in relationships. I could not live with such low faith in people.

Again, I didn't explain very well. It's not to "not expect and you won't be disappointed," it's that to expect in the first place is self centered. It is placing a reliance on others that they then have to choose to accept or reject.

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Quote:

Again, I didn't explain very well. It's not to "not expect and you won't be disappointed," it's that to expect in the first place is self centered. It is placing a reliance on others that they then have to choose to accept or reject.

well, doesn't matter. but the conclusion is that one shouldn't expect anything of others? why even get into relationships then?

i still don't see it. I know i don't have to agree, i'm just trying to understand...but i don't.

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Besides, I LIKE when something is expected of me. And I prefer to have the choice to ACCEPT it or deny it. If nothing is expecting, I do not have that choice. It is also reciprocal. I don't see it as a self-centered thing at all.

Is not expecting anything less self-centered? How so. In that case one is fully immersed in him or herself, not even reaching out to others. Trust does not mean dependence, or handouts of some sort. it's a two way road.

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dagmaraka wrote:

squinney wrote:

How many posts in the relationship and marriage section deal with broken trust and coming to grips with haviang wrongly placed faith in others? All?

Quote:
Precisely, that's what i was talking about before.
When trust is broken, relationship fails or at least suffers.
Hence, maintaining trust is important in relationships.

I mentioned earlier that I had a good friend, whom I esteemed and respected, for his advice, and as a person.

There came a time that I suspected him of stealing a gold ruby and diamond ring of mine.
I never asked him about it.

He brought up the subject [ defensively ? ] of not seeing me wearing that ring.
It may well be that he believed that
" When trust is broken, relationship fails or at least suffers.
Hence, maintaining trust is important in relationships. "

My suspicion of this larceny did not interfere
with our friendship. I never said anything about it.

Quote:
that takes work for both partners. but what you're suggesting is to go into it...
without trust at all? how?

The same way that u get on a train
with many people whom u do not trust.

David

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David,

Have you noticed how you are trying to explain away Dagmaraka's posts? This is not necessary. What she is saying is true for her. You may rephrase what she says from a different perspective (yours), and that new perspectivey may (or may not) be true (for either one, or both)...but what you are writing shows you have little comprehension of why it is true for her...because you keep trying to make it untrue, and for reasons that aren't related to the values she holds, but to values you hold.

Now Dagmaraka isn't trying to do the same thing to (the things) you (say). She is simply giving you her experience of what trust means to her.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Besides, I LIKE when something is expected of me. And I prefer to have the choice to ACCEPT it or deny it. If nothing is expecting, I do not have that choice. It is also reciprocal. I don't see it as a self-centered thing at all.

Is not expecting anything less self-centered? How so. In that case one is fully immersed in him or herself, not even reaching out to others. Trust does not mean dependence, or handouts of some sort. it's a two way road.

Trust has nothing to do with handouts.

Marilyn once accused me of stealing a $75 check from her
( which wud have involved forgery of her endorsement, and getting disbarred for $75 )
when she cud not find it around the house.

She still owes me $1000s.
I pointed out to her: " I GIVE U money.
Y 'd I do that, if I wanted to take money FROM u ? "
David

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vikorr wrote:

David,

Have you noticed how you are trying to explain away Dagmaraka's posts? This is not necessary. What she is saying is true for her. You may rephrase what she says from a different perspective (yours), and that new perspectivey may (or may not) be true (for either one, or both)...but what you are writing shows you have little comprehension of why it is true for her...because you keep trying to make it untrue, and for reasons that aren't related to the values she holds, but to values you hold.

Now Dagmaraka isn't trying to do the same thing to (the things) you (say). She is simply giving you her experience of what trust means to her.

The nature of discussion
is to analyse the logical validity of the propositions
that r adduced by the participants hereof.

That is all that I am doing.

David

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'trust' is not a factual word. It is a perceptual word. The logic which you are talking about, can only ever be perceptual 'logic'. In other words, what can be true from one perspective, can be untrue from another perspective.

We each have different experiences, different values, different ways of seeing the world, that make certain things true for us, but not necessarily true for others.

As logic can't be both true and untrue at the same time...it isn't logical. Logic has to do with facts, but we aren't talking about facts...we are talking, about experience, emotions, perceptions, memories, values, beliefs, character/personality, conscience, fears, comfort zones etc etc.

You used the Martha Stewart example earlier, and saw meaning in it for you. I saw something completely different (the irrelevance to me)...that is differing perception. That perception is based on many of the above things.

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vikorr wrote:

Quote:
'trust' is not a factual word. It is a perceptual word.
The logic which you are talking about, can only ever be perceptual 'logic'.
In other words, what can be true from one perspective,
can be untrue from another perspective.

No doubt.

Quote:
We each have different experiences, different values,
different ways of seeing the world, that make certain things true for us,
but not necessarily true for others.

Yes;
which is the same as saying that we each bring differing PREMISES
to the syllogistic table.

Quote:
As logic can't be both true and untrue at the same time...it isn't logical.

I deny that.
The different logicians have different syllogisms,
resulting from different premises.

Quote:
Logic has to do with facts, but we aren't talking about facts...
we are talking, about experience, emotions, perceptions, memories, values, beliefs, character/personality, conscience, fears, comfort zones etc etc.

You used the Martha Stewart example earlier, and saw meaning in it for you. I saw something completely different (the irrelevance to me)...that is differing perception. That perception is based on many of the above things.

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If logic can be both true and untrue at the same time...why are you bothing with logic...for the truth of what you are saying can never be determined (except perhaps, arguably, by yourself).

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Ha! I just got out of the shower and was coming back to say that what I posted before is just where I am now. It's part of my learning and my understanding to this date. I might be where Dagmarka is five years from now, which would actually put me back to where I was in '97, but it is a winding path we follow. Neither is wrong, it is just where we are at this point on the path.

But, I see vikorr already made that point. Very Happy

I was actually quite angry when this lesson initially presented itself. I alluded to it somewhere around here probably a year or more ago as a rather difficult time I had dealt with but didn't expand.

Looking back:

Boy, I just clutched that trust and belief in others by the neck and refused to let go for the longest time. I cried. I stomped. I cursed the damn thing and shook it real hard. Then, somewhere along the path I looked down and saw this dead "thing" in my hand and wondered why I was still carrying it around. I tossed it away. Freed it, and me.

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squinney, do you have a good longterm girlfriend that you sometimes go for coffee with? whom you can tell anything and she tells you anything as well? who you would give your kids to look after if you had to run somewhere at the last moment? whom you would ask for a favor and know she'd do it for you if she can?

your children,for that matter. do you not have an inherent trust in them?

i'm just asking because i'm wondering if we don't understand trust differently.

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Hi Squinney,

(edit, cause I didn't read properly) Yes 5 years from now you could be where Dagmaraka is, or 5 years from now Dagmaraka could be where you are, or you could both be at the same place, or both at differing places...we all experience differing lives, and see those experiences in differing lights Smile

Psst Dag...of course trust is understood by people differently :wink:

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Is It Wise to TRUST Our Friends ?

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