Mom and Chatty Toddler Removed From Flight

You're doing it again. "Kind of like this" does not equal "just as 'fussy' on the plane as he was on the set."

Meanwhile, why is that at issue?

joefromchicago wrote:

Linkat wrote:

And I don't think your opinion is any less - just simply lacking in not experiencing a portion of it.

My opinion is good, it's just lacking? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

You keep twisting things I say...

Linkat wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

Linkat wrote:

And I don't think your opinion is any less - just simply lacking in not experiencing a portion of it.

My opinion is good, it's just lacking? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

You keep twisting things I say...

I quoted your exact words. You said my opinion is lacking. I'm not twisting what you said, you're twisting what you said.

But don't bother explaining yourself any further. I've suddenly lost interest.

CHETRY: Well, the mom says she later learned that the flight attendant told the pilot that she had threatened her, which Kate says is not true.

So how do these situations get handled? Joining us is Sara Nelson. She is a spokeswoman for the Association of Flight Attendants in Chicago this morning.

Hi, Sarah.

SARA NELSON, ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS: Hi, Kiran.

CHETRY: So you heard about this case. What did you think? A lot of people were shocked to think that you could get thrown off a flight because your baby wouldn't stop talking. Is that the case?

NELSON: Well, it's a little bit impossible to comment on the specific issue, since I don't know the exact facts that were involved. But I do look at this story maybe a little bit different than the average member of the public might. And I should remind your viewers, first and foremost, that flight attendants are the biggest advocate for passenger rights.

But we are also keenly aware, on these crowded airplanes that we are the last line of defense for the security of the flight, and no one should have to make a serious decision based on a gut feeling alone. So we've been fighting for adequate security training since the day after September 11th. And to this date, the Bush administration and airline management continue to deny us that right.

CHETRY: All right, but can we just get back to this case for a second? You said you don't know all the fact, but we do know some, which is that she was, indeed, kicked off this flight. There were other passengers apparently who were trying to convince the flight attendant not to boot her off the flight. But they, indeed, went back to the gate, and she got thrown off the flight. So are there rules, or are there some guidelines with how passengers are rejected and for what reasons?

NELSON: Well, look, we have to err on the side of caution. So with the limited security training that we do receive, we are taught that the first objective is to keep any potential problem off the airplane. So that is -- that is what we're taking into consideration when we have to make very quick decisions. We're also taught that some of these things, even medical emergencies, can be distractions for a more serious plot against the safety of the flight.

CHETRY: I mean, the situation here, though, is the baby was repeatedly saying over and over again. She says that the flight attendant said to her, "It's called baby Benadryl." I mean, is that an appropriate thing to say to a mother that, perhaps, you should try to make your child sleepy?

NELSON: Well, that's probably not appropriate, but I'm going to give the flight attendant the benefit of the doubt since we haven't been able to hear her side of the story.

But back to how we might deal with a situation like this. The flight attendants are charged with the safe passage of the passengers in their care. We have to think about the total safety of the entire flight. Part of that comes into play when we are giving direction to passengers. We are doing that because we are following certain federal regulations. And it's actually a federal regulation that passengers follow through with the direction that we're giving them.

CHETRY: I understand...

NELSON: Now, we understand that a little toddler can't always do that. And we always have to balance our regulations with the fact that we're dealing with humans and human needs and unplanned events. So we would be looking at how the mother is responding or how the parent is responding to any direction that we might be giving.

CHETRY: You did mention something, though, that caught my ear. You said you've received limited security training. What do you mean by that?

NELSON: Well, we have fought very hard to have adequate security training. Flight attendants were the first to die on September 11th, and we've been the last to be trained. And we need appropriate training in order to deal with the security issues that we face every single day.

There are 140,000 fewer airline workers serving the same number of passengers as there were in 2001. We've taken pay cuts; we're working longer and paying more for our medical; we don't have pensions. We have all of these stresses, and we don't have the tools in order to deal with the stresses that we encounter today. I think that's what can create situations like this...

CHETRY: So are you saying that if a flight attendant is overworked, stressed out, and if your kid cries and won't shut up, you're getting booted off the plane because they're stressed?

NELSON: That is not necessarily the case. But I think that all of these issues can contribute to greater conflicts on the plane. And flight attendants who are doing their job should be erring on the side of caution and making sure that we are keeping problems on the ground and not in the air where we...

CHETRY: All right, all right.

NELSON: ... have other things to do then.

CHETRY: Well, Sara Nelson, thanks for giving your side of it - spokesperson for the Association of Flight Attendants.

NELSON: Thanks, Kiran.

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joefromchicago wrote:

Sorry, but that is complete and utter bullshit.

[..] I can damn well offer a reasonable, intelligent opinion about child behavior and about proper parenting, even though I've never had any children of my own, just as I can offer an opinion about politics without ever having been a politician or about the war in Iraq without ever having served in the military or about the omelette I had this morning without ever having been a chicken.

What I meant at that you can not fully understand unless you are a parent is how children act. In other words you cannot fully appreciate how much attention a child requires and how and why they act in certain situations.

I know because I have been both childless as an adult and with children as an adult. When I did not have children, I did not comprehend everything involved with a child and there is no way to fully comprehend how to raise and handle children until you have one of your own - period.

Linkat wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

Sorry, but that is complete and utter bullshit.

[..] I can damn well offer a reasonable, intelligent opinion about child behavior and about proper parenting, even though I've never had any children of my own, just as I can offer an opinion about politics without ever having been a politician or about the war in Iraq without ever having served in the military or about the omelette I had this morning without ever having been a chicken.

What I meant at that you can not fully understand unless you are a parent is how children act. In other words you cannot fully appreciate how much attention a child requires and how and why they act in certain situations.

I know because I have been both childless as an adult and with children as an adult. When I did not have children, I did not comprehend everything involved with a child and there is no way to fully comprehend how to raise and handle children until you have one of your own - period.

Seems pretty obvious to me - common sense.

Ive commented on the Parenting threads before, because yes, of course you can have an opinion, even a reasoned one, about parenthood even if you dont have children - but it's pretty obvious that at some level, you just lack the kind of information or experience that parents do have.

Doesnt make every parent by necessity right; but does mean that as a commenting non-parent, it's a pretty straightforward given that your ability to "offer a reasonable, intelligent opinion" is by definition limited.

As the vets from 'Nam said, "you dont know man, you werent there.."

If you believe it to be true though, then logically speaking, you'd have to give more credence to the opinion of say...these people then any of us who don't have kids.

Doesnt make every parent by necessity right; but does mean that as a commenting non-parent, it's a pretty straightforward given that your ability to "offer a reasonable, intelligent opinion" is by definition limited.

"I said, 'Well, I'm not going to drug my child so you have a pleasant flight,'" Penland said.

The discussion continued

Course there are bad parents out there, and good parents making wrong choices. But its pretty much a given that there are some things that a non-parent by definition doesnt know, and that a parent knows and can then proceed to make good, fair, bad or horrific responses to.

The lady Diane was a flight attendant, she has a different point of view. She wants more details.

Any rutting animal in the forest can get pregnant and drop a litter. That doesn't make her a competent parent

I was in one of those "stair-step" families. I was the youngest of four children. We had two first cousins who were older, one first cousin the same age as our oldest boy, and three first cousins younger than us. The oldest first cousin had children of her own, and her younger sister had children. By the time i got out of high school, i had as much or more experience at changing diapers (no disposables in those days) and caring for infants and toddlers as most parents.

I've also seen parents who were totally clueless and either didn't care about how their kids behaved, or were actually too frightened or stupid to interfere or to assert themselves.

Any rutting animal in the forest can get pregnant and drop a litter. That doesn't make her a competent parent, nor give her any special insight in to children and their behavior. Especially if she's not paying attention, not interested, or full of silly notions before she even becomes a parent.

And I get tired of hearing how you have to be a parent to understand a toddler. I helped raise my niece, and in certain important years, greatly more than her mother did

And I get tired of hearing how you have to be a parent to understand a toddler. I helped raise my niece, and in certain important years, greatly more than her mother did, who left the country twice for six months at a time - although nowhere near as much as her father, a good dad. I was also around a lot during my cousins' children's toddlerdom. In the case of the cousins, yes, they knew more. However, I am not incapable of understanding and tire of the blanket statement that I and other non-parents simply cannot understand. I do understand JoefromChicago's comment, something about a special secret society.

Setanta wrote:

Any rutting animal in the forest can get pregnant and drop a litter. That doesn't make her a competent parent

Has anyone here claimed that having kids automatically qualifies you to claim to be "a competent parent"? Or are you just making a general observation a propos of nothing in particular?