Should I remove the safety net?

I contacted a number of Lawyers in and around my home town yesterday with my goals & expectations mainly being joint custody of the kids. Now I just have to research those that replied and find the one with a good track record of representing fathers with children, that will be todays job so that I can make the right appointment asap.

To be honest my wife is not the wicked witch of the west, and whilst I thank you all for your concerns I strongly and firmly believe she, just like I, would never attempt to use the kids against the other and access wouldnt be pre determined but it would be free and open. Ie not regimented that I get them on wednesday night and saturday. It would be more open and less formal, so long as there is a stipulation in any separation agreement / divorce document.

My wife is following the lead of one of her friends who went through almost the same thing. The husband decided he didn't love her anymore and left and she later found a new man and moved in their with the kids. They divorced with no lawyer split assets 50/50 and both maintain really healthy relationships with their children and both parents work together and communicate to allow each parent to create a routine that works well regarding seeing the kids but is very flexible to change.

I would be delighted with that outcome for myself, and I know the best way to achieve that at the moment is to keep things as they are at home and proceed with ending things legally.

Talking with my wife last night, we both understand and see how things fell apart. She was very critical of me because I wasn't meeting her emotional needs, that critique came across wrong and resentment grew as we just continued on and on and on as as time past you give up caring anymore. Its sad we are both devastated that it didn't work and she is too scared to try again.

In my next relationship I will always seek to understand anger aimed at me, it cant be the little thing that started it, there are clearly needs that aren't met and I need to get to and understand what caused the anger.

With regards to the financial aspect as things are now, I guess it's all worth it to secure a healthy future with my kids & eventually I will be in the exact situation I am in anyway, paying all of my bills, the mortgage and paying money to my wife in the form alimony / child maintenance.

Just be aware that some Lawyers will try and talk you in to making an agreement through the courts with 'anything you agree to by yourself won't be binding' and 'he could change his mind at any time and you could end up with nothing' etc etc etc.

One of the guys I worked with had his ex wife talked in to involving Lawyers...after she was more than prepared to work it out amicably between them. An unnecessarily expensive exercise (with extra heartache) if both are amicable & adult about it....one the Lawyers get involved, they then start saying 'you're entitled to X & Y & Z' (with Z being debatable) rather than 'we'll help you split this the way the two of you decide is fair'...while your Lawyer would say 'no, we don't have to give her Z because of ####'...and then it ends up in court, with the lawyers the only winners.

Thanks vikorr

I believe that my wife and I can work this out, I asked her to please stop taking things any further with her new relationship until we Publicly end our relationship and begin legally ending it.

We are on good enough terms to work through things and make things fair for all four of us.

I wasn't surprised at how quickly all the lawyers, 'personally responded' as they really wanted to help with my case / our money.

Regardless what the lawyers tell me I am entitled too, both of us have to be able to afford to look after our kids and have a decent standard of living, I don't want to be "raked over the coals", but I dont want to come away laughing at my wife and put my children in a position where they will will have a lower quality of life.

Except everyone is going to have a lower quality of life with two households.

You are right about the two of you having a lower standard of living as you will have two households.

I am "happy" for you in the sense that things seem like they will work out fairly/equally for all; not happy of course as I do not like seeing a marriage end this way - but sometimes it is better so you can both go onto better relationships.

I would suggest that somehow you work in that she starts to work full time so you do not have to carry a full financial burden for her as well. Now granted she may not, especially if she hasn't been working full time while taking care of the kids, get paid as much as you so you may have to pay her some support. However, if she works full time your support should be lower and also, make sure their is something put in place whereas as she grows financially, your support should decrease over time. Not sure if this is something that could be worked in, but it would be nice for you if you are not supporting her your entire life and she becomes self sufficient.

Excellent advice there linkat.

When her income increases then my support should decrease seems very fair to me, she does want to become self sufficient. We have talked extensively about benefits vs work and she understands that on benefits when the kids reach a certain age / point (determined by further education) the taps turn off. They may be easy to acquire but you are on a road to nowhere on benefits. Compare that against a career in a job that you enjoy and thrive in and you are on a road to fulfilment.

I do find myself incredibly luckily that her female friend is an ambassador for doing things right and fairly. If we come off like they are I will be delighted.

The whole 50/50 split of assets and the access to kids is great, a telephone call or text message saying hey the circus is in town, can I come get the kids on thursday evening take them? Yeah sure

I do want to maintain a healthy relationship with my wife throughout all of this and the rest of my life as she is a nice person who I do still love but I have to let go. There is still so much emotion in my head but focusing on divorce seems to make things clearer, cleaner and easier.

But in X number of years from now, when I am walking my daughter down the Aisle I want to be able to enjoy that day with her and my wife and the man she is seeing at that time, which I strongly believe will not be the one she is having an affair with.

If lawyers are involved, and things get difficult - don't forget to tell her that (many people, when stressed and being told things they don't want to hear, will jump to the wrong conclusion about the others intention...having jumped to the wrong conclusion and presuming they are being taken for a ride...they fight back...the first party, now being attacked...also fights back...and then...you see how it can sometimes go?

It's something to be aware of that can usually be pre-emptively solved by communication your intentions.

How about a middle ground?

You say you give her money so she can reasons reasons. Are you literally handing her money or do you just have a joint account?
Whichever it is, stop. Get a new account and leave enough $ in the old one to keep it open. When she needs $ for reasons, she will have to address you. How she does will say a lot about her character. It can also start the conversation you two need to have about what she sees about your marriage in the future.
I'd also start using that flexible work schedule you have to do what you'd have to do if she wasn't there. Then consider her living in the house a barter trade for the child care she provides and continued grocery shopping duties (give X amount of money, a shopping list, and ask for the receipt. keep record of these lists/receipts).
The reason why you need to start flexing your schedule to what you'd have to do if she left you and the kids is to build a history where your portion of primary child caregiver isn't outweighed by hers. That is the biggest influence in who the courts decide should take the kids more often. More often its the mom, but when the mom works a lot and the dad stays home more, its resulting in the kids going with dad.
Also, thinking about that - why roll over and give up the house?
It comes down to calling her hand. If she's just got stars in her eyes and intends to wait for the right time to leave with new boy, putting the smack down via custody fight on her way out, don't give her the time to plan ahead.
And yes, stop paying her cell and gym bill. It's not like it was a trade for sex, but no you don't need to pay for what she sexts him on or a spin class to maintain the ass he is appreciating.

I didn't read a single response (there was such a long list) but this resonates closely with me. My (now ex husband) and I tried to live under the same roof as a separated couple. It doesn't work. All it did was cause tension and the kids notice. My children are the same age as yours (they were 3 and 5 when we separated and 4 and 6 when we divorced).

Our relationship had been falling apart for years and we just grew apart (there were several reasons and my husband drank and lied a lot but even if he didn't I still think we would have grown apart).

My honest advice is to stop giving her money. Move out and begin the process of grief. It's going to be hard but it does get easier as time goes. I thought it was going to ruin my children but they are much happier now that they are out of the tension. They have time with me and time with him.

You deserve happiness and to be with someone that wants you to be happy. One of the best things about love is that you love the other so much that just seeing them happy makes you happy but seeing them happy shouldn't hurt you.

Do you really want the woman that would need to even be questioned with the choice of someone else? I thought dating with kids would be hard. That starting over would be hard. I invested 8 years... now I am happy. I am in a new relationship and I am finally able to breathe. It's still not easy, he is very difficult to work with but at least I don't feel terrible anymore.

When I chose to leave I stopped thinking about him for once. For once I thought about me and my children only. I thought about what I want my kids to see as love. I could stay and teach them that love is being unhappy (at least for me) but then I could never justify it because if they approached me as an adult and said they were in the same situation I'd tell them to leave. How could I say that if I didn't.

Everyone's idea of marriage is different. A lot of people say that marriage is hard work and when things are broken you fix them but I've been in a bad marriage. Sometimes you can't fix it and I don't think anyone should have to suffer.

Ignore the websites. Ignore the books. How do you see this 5 years down the road. What does your gut say? Do you love her or is it the idea of the family? The future that you always had planned? Once you face those questions and search deep down then you'll know what to do.

Hope this helps....

Its been a ruff week!

I had a true heart to heart with my wife and talked to her for hours just as I was going to round and tell my parents then news. She opened up honestly for the first time about a number of things and I genuinely believe her.

She has never felt loved by the me the way she has loved me, she broke down with stories of the past things I wasn't doing, way's I had made her feel like she didn't exist and I truly believe our marriage was destroyed by my lack of love for her.

Anyway I then went to tell my parents and then my sister about what had happened, truthfully that my wife felt unloved and I how I misread all the nagging and aggression was just her not getting her need to be loved met.

They have been really supportive to both of us and sent caring messages to my wife.

My stance on the safety net was one of emotional desperation to try anything to get my wife to see. Yesterday I told her that I cant see any way of saving the house and that we would have to sell and that we have to tell the kids sooner than later. This bought up another deep emotional conversation between us.

She feels like she cant try again for the fear of being hurt and unloved, she can see I have changed and we also talked about the other guy and the gut wrenching hole we both feel that cant be filled.

When she is with him she has a hole as her family arent with her.
When she is on her own she has a hole she cant fill.
The only person that can fill that is me

I am the same, I constantly have this hole thick sickness in my stomach and I have a different view on what marriage is and my capacity to love my wife.

We are in different territory at the moment and it feels like the more I let her go and the closer I move towards a proper legal separation the closer we seem to get.

I would work again towards a new and better future, but I dont know what the future is. Reading back through the posts I can tell that people dont and cant really fully understand the situation as they arent living it.

My wife is an awesome person, who hasnt been loved properly by me and she cant live any more years like that. She is 100% not being manipulative or devious and just wants to be happy.

I really don't know where we are going to end up or what kind of picture I am painting for I am not an artist and even it I were we all have our own perspectives.

In her version of events is there a single thing that is not your fault?

Hell Ya it looks like you being played,

Probably I just dont understand.

Well, in every separation, it's almost always both parties that contribute to the events that lead to the separation. Answering both sides, when only one is presented, is...problematic (for obvious reasons). I think you'll find that most people have simply responded to how you presented the situation.



Again - both sides contribute. In terms of what she contributed:

It is my experience that not a single guy I know is a mind reader. Heartfelt, open communication from her would have been nice earlier, yes?

*cough* every guy I know 'misreads' nagging & aggression of this nature...I don't know a single man that would interpret it as 'I need you to love me' (or similar).

As a summary (of what you presented) - uncommunicative, aggressive nag? One who expects you to mindread?

That's not to say she doesn't have many decent qualities (all those qualities that made you fall in love with her in the first place)...just that there is little doubt that she has contributed to the situation...but presented it to you, as Hawkeye said, as all your fault.

the one constant in his story is her lack of willingness to work on the relationship. And the problem according to her is that he does not love her enough??!!

Now that's rich.

My suspicion is that the meaning is actually something like this:
-------------------------------------------
Every person sees different types of actions as the expression of love - ie. they want to be loved in a particular way (often modelled after how their parents showed 'love' to each other).

That particular way that 'A' wishes to be loved can differ form their partner 'B's understanding of how love should be expressed in actions (often modelled after how 'B's parents showed 'love' to each other).

Ie. to me it likely says 'You didn't love me in the way I need to be loved' rather than 'you didn't love me enough'

(but in the end, that is just a guess).

You sound, eerily, just like my ex husband.... anyway good luck in the future and I hope it all works out for the best. Just remember that she isn't perfect and doesn't belong on a pedestal. It takes two people to ruin a relationship...

I have never believed that. One person can ruin things pretty easily. It takes two to make it work however.

Yea, that's true in a sense... I always blamed 95% on my ex since he never changed his behaviors and I gave myself 5% for being a complete and utter moron.

I remember that you did. I told you that you were not being fair to him. As I recall you pulled a Katie Homes move, you decided to leave without trying to work with him and then did it without honor.

But that was not my point. My point is that one person who decides not to listen to the other, decides not to work on the marriage, decides that they dont care about the marriage or the spouse can ruin a marriage. Marriage is a team sport, those who are alone cant win at it no matter how smart or how hard working they are.

Oh shucks.. I don't follow tabloids that involve Katie Holmes... maybe next time I'll brush up on my celebrity relationships before I happily leave my lying, cheating ex husband, after 3 years of separation, counseling and tears.

yes Vikor This is exactly what our problem was!

I can accept that I my wife and I have almost switched stances, she feels she has always been putting in the effort for both of us when it comes to her needs and wants for the marriage. I feel I have been putting in a lot of effort to the JOB of a husband, but I have not put the effort into loving my wife. I naively thought that providing was enough, but truth is she just wants to really feel loved and that is what I wasnt providing.


I guess though now that I have told my family and have their support, things are really easier for me. I want us to work and I want to save the marriage but if its too late; if I have learned all my mistakes too late to save this one, I have learned a hell of a lot in this last year.

Its frustrating that at school, university, working life I have studied so many subjects, read books, taken exams produced coursework etc but I didnt properly invest anything into relationships, especially the most basic understanding of the differences between men and women.

I mean as a child you pick up the terms, women and from Venus and men are from Mars, you hear people say men are all the same, women are all the same but I didn't ever invest in why & what and understanding how little subtle differences can make an enormous difference.

a common mistake. I have been saying for over 20 years that we in America dont value marriage in particular and intimate relationships in general. We being most of us, and we being the collective. And guys getting to be 40 without one single person who knows women and relationships ever taking them aside and explaining how important this is and giving some general pointers on how to go about relationship and women is part of it. Where are the dad's? I mean my dad was a drunk who beat his wife who openly said that the reason he had kids was to have someone to do chores (he said it like a joke to outsiders, but we kids all knew that it was the truth)....and then he went and died on me when I was only 23, but dont dads take their kids fishing anymore to explain the facts of life to them away from the women?? Dont guys who have dad's to point them take their buddies who have not dads around out for a few beers to talk guy talk on relationships and women? Dont guys get to wondering if they are missing something so they go down to Barns and Noble for a look see and come up with something like a book from David Deida and then do a palm/head?

Apparently not.