0
   

Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread V

 
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 11:51 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
woiyo wrote: What does any of that have to do with the Fairness Doctrine?


Are you for real? Bush is the most secretive president of modern times, and he talks about "free speech" as if he understands its meaning. Give me a break!


Again, What does Bush statement have to do with the Fairness Doctrine?

You either support it (which I think you do) or you do not support it.

We know your opinion about Bush. Tell us your position relative to the Fairness Doctrine.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 11:54 am
It's not about the Fairness Doctrine: it's about what Bush says about it and how that contradicts how he runs our government. Do you understand the meaning of "hypocrite?"
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 12:10 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Do you understand the meaning of "hypocrite?"


http://www.able2know.org/forums/images/avatars/20653538404645496840d06.jpg

Am I close?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 12:30 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's not about the Fairness Doctrine: it's about what Bush says about it and how that contradicts how he runs our government. Do you understand the meaning of "hypocrite?"


Running the Govt and the Fairness Doctrine are 2 seperate things.

Democrats talking about the merits of re-instating the FD is hypocritical in the same way you say Bush is being hypocritical.

So once again, do you support the Fairness Doctrine and why.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 01:17 pm
McGentrix wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Do you understand the meaning of "hypocrite?"


http://www.able2know.org/forums/images/avatars/20653538404645496840d06.jpg

Am I close?


Yes, but ...

http://www.able2know.org/forums/images/avatars/d8e8a4d73efed5d461c19.jpg

... no cigar.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:09 pm
McGentrix wrote:
blatham wrote:
Bush as political philosopher...I've always loved him in this role...

Quote:
"We know who these advocates of so-called balance really have in their sights: shows hosted by people like Rush Limbaugh or James Dobson, or many of you here today. By insisting on so-called balance, they want to silence those they don't agree with. The truth of the matter is, they know they cannot prevail in the public debate of ideas. They don't acknowledge that you are the balance … The country should not be afraid of the diversity of opinions. After all, we're strengthened by diversity of opinions."

"If Congress truly supports the free and open exchange of ideas, then there is a way they can demonstrate that right now. Republicans have drafted legislation that would ban reinstatement of the so-called Fairness Doctrine.


There's a good possibility something like the FD might again come up the pike. You chaps will piss about it and repeat the cliches that Bush repeats above rather than go to the trouble of getting yourselves educated. Pity, because you're hurting yourselves, your families and your neighbors.


How so? You agree with the fairness doctrine? Why?


This has been discussed previously on many occasions.

The ideal is, as most of us would have it and as Bush states above, maximal diversity of opinion. I don't believe he really wishes that at all, but that is another matter.

The claim that the goal of legislation similar to the FD would be to "silence" rightwing voices is false. Bush repeats this either because he is stupid and believes it or because he is just continuing a propagandist message, or a propagandist lie if we are honest about it. The previous period where FD was in effect didn't demonstrate such an effect from that legislation. No one was silenced. So the claim is deceitful.

The difficulties regarding how we might word such legislation or how we might implement it are really where the problems seem to sit. But there's nothing inherently wrong with legislation in this area unless one takes an absolutist stance. But that doesn't work if only because the FCC presently has legislation which directs and limits aspects of such communications media, so such absolutes are not the case now.

But more to the point, what we seek to avoid (in moving to the ideal of maximal diversity) is dominance and monopoly. No one (sane) wants George Soros or Rupert Murdoch or GE to buy up all the major networks because we know what the result would surely be. Or one could imagine moveon.org or someone else like them getting lucky in the stock market and taking over Clear Channel and then going on to purchase other AM radio stations.

So, we can move to ensure diversity through limiting how much media a single entity can own. And/or we can move to ensure diversity through legislation similar to FD.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:17 pm
woiyo wrote: So once again, do you support the Fairness Doctrine and why.

My answer as well:

Blatham wrote: The claim that the goal of legislation similar to the FD would be to "silence" rightwing voices is false. Bush repeats this either because he is stupid and believes it or because he is just continuing a propagandist message, or a propagandist lie if we are honest about it. The previous period where FD was in effect didn't demonstrate such an effect from that legislation. No one was silenced. So the claim is deceitful.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:22 pm
I do not believe that diversity of speech should be enforced. It should be earned. On my way to work, I choose to listen to NPR. I do not think the Gov't should be in the business of telling NPR that for every hour they give that Diane Rehm to talk, Bill O'Reilly should also have. I choose to listen to NPR for the topics they cover. At lunch I choose to listen to Limbaugh and see what he is preaching about. I don't want the government telling that station taht they must diversify. It's up to them as the free market allows.

That's where the Fairness Doctrine fails. It stop the free market from deciding what it should do and instead enforces and outside influence of what the Gov't considers as "diverse". It's BS, pure and simple.

I don't want a diversity of opinion. If I did, I would seek it out. Not have it shoved down my throat.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:25 pm
Author: Alastair Endersby ( United Kingdom )
Alastair learnt to debate at the Cambridge Union but discovered his real talents lay in coaching when he started teaching. He has twice coached England teams in the World Schools Debating Championships and Chairs the England Schools Debating Team Committee. Alastair currently teaches History and Politics at Bishop Wordsworth's School in Salisbury, England. He is the Editor of Debatabase.


Created: Monday, August 27, 2007
Last Modified:


Context
Until twenty years ago broadcasters in the USA had by law to follow the federal government's "Fairness Doctrine". This rule, formally introduced in 1949, required radio and television stations to give "ample play to the free and fair competition of opposing views", so that listeners and viewers received a range of opinions and individual stations were not able to promote particular viewpoints to the exclusion of all others. The doctrine was also supported by Congress in legislation, although there is argument over whether this required the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to regulate broadcasters in this way, or simply allowed them to do so if they judged it necessary. A 1969 Supreme Court case found that the Fairness Doctrine did not infringe the constitutional freedom of speech.

In 1987 the Reagan Administration's FCC judged that the Fairness Doctrine was an outdated and unnecessary interference in the broadcasting business and it was repealed. Congress made an attempt to reimpose it but President Reagan vetoed this and the doctrine has never been brought back since.

Since the Fairness Doctrine was removed in 1987 talk radio has become much more prominent, bringing a brash and lively style of political debate into many American homes (and cars). Conservative viewpoints dominate their agenda, and hosts such as Rush Limbaugh make no attempt to hide their own political opinions or to provide a platform for views which disagree with their own. Such stations are now seen as hugely politically influential, with loyal audiences which they can mobilise to lobby, vote and protest on key issues. This was particularly seen in the collapse of immigration reform in 2007, when some Republicans as well as Democrats began to call for talk radio to be reined back, perhaps through the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine.

There are always two sides to every coin; depending on one's personal perception on this topic, it can be either pro or con. I believe in "free speech" in accordance with our Constitution.


When Bush took action to deny the showing of flag drapped coffins returning from Iraq; that was in direct violation of "free speech."
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:48 pm
McG wrote:
Quote:
That's where the Fairness Doctrine fails. It stop the free market from deciding what it should do and instead enforces and outside influence of what the Gov't considers as "diverse". It's BS, pure and simple.

I don't want a diversity of opinion. If I did, I would seek it out. Not have it shoved down my throat.


The "free market" has now consolidated ownership of major media into the hands of five corporations. Can you see any structural reason why further consolidation won't occur? Surely there's nothing magical about the number 5 or the number 3 or the number 2?

Would you be satisfied that this 'free market' notion has served your country well if such further consolidation, even down to 2 or 1 entity owns all networks?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 02:53 pm
blatham wrote:
McG wrote:
Quote:
That's where the Fairness Doctrine fails. It stop the free market from deciding what it should do and instead enforces and outside influence of what the Gov't considers as "diverse". It's BS, pure and simple.

I don't want a diversity of opinion. If I did, I would seek it out. Not have it shoved down my throat.


The "free market" has now consolidated ownership of major media into the hands of five corporations. Can you see any structural reason why further consolidation won't occur? Surely there's nothing magical about the number 5 or the number 3 or the number 2?

Would you be satisfied that this 'free market' notion has served your country well if such further consolidation, even down to 2 or 1 entity owns all networks?


Not happy about that at all, but I don't see the Fairness Doctrine becoming a monopoly buster.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 03:14 pm
McGentrix wrote:
blatham wrote:
McG wrote:
Quote:
That's where the Fairness Doctrine fails. It stop the free market from deciding what it should do and instead enforces and outside influence of what the Gov't considers as "diverse". It's BS, pure and simple.

I don't want a diversity of opinion. If I did, I would seek it out. Not have it shoved down my throat.


The "free market" has now consolidated ownership of major media into the hands of five corporations. Can you see any structural reason why further consolidation won't occur? Surely there's nothing magical about the number 5 or the number 3 or the number 2?

Would you be satisfied that this 'free market' notion has served your country well if such further consolidation, even down to 2 or 1 entity owns all networks?


Not happy about that at all, but I don't see the Fairness Doctrine becoming a monopoly buster.


The point I'm trying to underline here is that we can't count on the 'free market' alone to operate in the nation's best interests. That's why we have anti-monopoly legislation and a host of other reasonable regulations which constrain corporations and individuals (particularly those who hold great wealth and power/influence) from acting in ways that create harm.

If we grant that an absolute 'free market' will likely, if not certainly, lead to such harms, then we're presented with the problems of how to go about contraining or limiting such entities in a manner that produces the greatest good for all of us. But it does make such limitations/constraints necessary.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 04:14 pm
McGentrix wrote:

By Ken Herman | Tuesday, March 11, 2008, 02:19 PM


In Nashville today, during a speech to the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, President Bush said there's nothing fair about the so-called "Fairness Doctrine"

The truth of the matter is, they know they cannot prevail in the public debate of ideas. They don't acknowledge that you are the balance … The country should not be afraid of the diversity of opinions. After all, we're strengthened by diversity of opinions."


The hypocrisy is stunning.

Quote:


Pentagon Report on Saddam's Iraq Censored?

March 12, 2008 1:58 PM

ABC News' Jonathan Karl Reports: The Bush Administration apparently does not want a U.S. military study that found no direct connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda to get any attention. This morning, the Pentagon cancelled plans to send out a press release announcing the report's release and will no longer make the report available online.

The report was to be posted on the Joint Forces Command website this afternoon, followed by a background briefing with the authors. No more. The report will be made available only to those who ask for it, and it will be sent via U.S. mail from Joint Forces Command in Norfolk, Virginia.

It won't be emailed to reporters and it won't be posted online.

Asked why the report would not be posted online and could not be emailed, the spokesman for Joint Forces Command said: "We're making the report available to anyone who wishes to have it, and we'll send it out via CD in the mail."

Another Pentagon official said initial press reports on the study made it "too politically sensitive."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/rapidreport/2008/03/pentagon-report.html

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 04:53 pm
Quote:


Awareness of Iraq War Fatalities Plummets
Political Knowledge Update

Released: March 12, 2008

Public awareness of the number of American military fatalities in Iraq has declined sharply since last August. Today, just 28% of adults are able to say that approximately 4,000 Americans have died in the Iraq war. As of March 10, the Department of Defense had confirmed the deaths of 3,974 U.S. military personnel in Iraq.

In August 2007, 54% correctly identified the fatality level at that time (about 3,500 deaths). In previous polls going back to the spring of 2004, about half of respondents could correctly estimate the number of U.S. fatalities around the time of the survey.

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=401

0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Mar, 2008 05:57 pm
Bush "Envious" Of Soldiers Serving "Romantic" Mission In Afghanistan
Huffington Post | March 13, 2008 06:11 PM

President Bush let his inner adventurer out while discussing the state of the war in Afghanistan with military and civilian personnel. While those in Afghanistan detailed the logistical and diplomatic problems via teleconference, the President took a much more whimsical approach to their mission. Via Reuters:

"I must say, I'm a little envious," Bush said. "If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines of helping this young democracy succeed."

"It must be exciting for you ... in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You're really making history, and thanks," Bush said.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2008 07:30 am
McG

Keep an eye on what is happening with the financial markets. Absense of adequate regulations and constraints is a real problem everyone is beginning to face (they have to now, because everyone is getting hurt). It is just another example of how government MUST impose such rules and restrictions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/13/AR2008031301887.html?hpid=topnews
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2008 08:23 am
Another example, though of a different sort. Corporate greed (KBR in this case, as in the case of their failure to properly supply safe water to soldiers and staff in Iraq) has consequences...

Quote:
Answers sought on contractor 'tax dodge'
Democrats want Gates to explain
By Farah Stockman
Globe Staff / March 14, 2008
WASHINGTON - A group of Democratic members of Congress yesterday sought an explanation from Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates as to why the Pentagon allowed a top defense contractor in Iraq to avoid paying Social Security and Medicare taxes for thousands of American workers by hiring them through two Cayman Island subsidiaries.

"The Pentagon needs to explain how our security is advanced by forming a coalition of the willing tax dodgers in the Cayman Islands," said Representative Lloyd Doggett, a Texas Democrat.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/03/14/answers_sought_on_contractor_tax_dodge/
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2008 08:53 am
Seems to me that the legislative branch of US gov't was created to create and change laws, the executive to uphold the laws and the judicial to judge the laws, yes? Would you agree that is the fundamental basics of it?

When I see congress holding sessions about baseball players taking steroids, I have to wonder to myself just what the hell they are doing. Do you?

If KBR, Time Warner, Bank of America, etc are breaking the law, then something should be done. If the people of the US believe laws should be enacted to break up monopolies, regulate business, etc, they should elect and notify legislaters to do so. Gov't for the people, of the people and all that. I don't see that happening though. I see congress investigating stuff that, in my opinion, should be pretty low on the agenda of things congress should be doing.

So, firness doctrine should be opposed, some business regulation should be imposed, but it should be done in such a manner that it is across the board and written in proper lawyerese so all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. Then, if a compnay breaks the law, they can be punished, and if they don't, they are left alone to seek their profit margins.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2008 09:35 am
blueflame1 wrote:
Bush "Envious" Of Soldiers Serving "Romantic" Mission In Afghanistan
Huffington Post | March 13, 2008 06:11 PM

President Bush let his inner adventurer out while discussing the state of the war in Afghanistan with military and civilian personnel. While those in Afghanistan detailed the logistical and diplomatic problems via teleconference, the President took a much more whimsical approach to their mission. Via Reuters:

"I must say, I'm a little envious," Bush said. "If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines of helping this young democracy succeed."

"It must be exciting for you ... in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You're really making history, and thanks," Bush said.




http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2008/03/20/bell512.jpg
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 12:16 pm
Quote:
Worst. President. Ever.
America's historians, it seems, don't think much of George W. Bush.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/04/hbc-90002804
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 11/16/2024 at 03:54:15