Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

aidan wrote:

And if I had a four year old child who spat in someone's face tomorrow- I'd give them a swat on their bottom.

aidan wrote:

I do not condone hitting children. Anyone who gathers that from what I've said has misunderstood my posts.

There seems to be a disconnect there.

Note, I'm not saying that you are a bad mother -- from what you've posted here you seem to be an exceptionally good mother. I'm just saying that your posts on this particular subject are less than consistent. That means I agree with some of them (hitting children is not something to condone), and disagree with others (hitting children is a response you would plan for in certain circumstances).

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Veteran nanny here. I have never slapped a child. I have been scary growling nanny, though. And I have not had easy kids to care for. One kid pulled out two handfuls of hair because I wouldn't let her play with a toy train set at toys R us.

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Stach said:

Quote:

Aidan, you sound really realistic, wise and sincere. The only point I don't understand is why would you fire the woman given the fact you don't think the child was physically or mentally harmed? Would you consider what impression she would make overally? What if she acts gently, politely and
thoughtfully under most circumstances? I am not trying to defend my gf, just asking what other criteria would be considered choosing an au pair or deciding to fire one. What if she said to you, I am sorry, that incident took me by surprise? She is really not a full professional, she is a university student and this is her summer job. As was said before she only gets some pocket money.

Stach, on this forum, looking at the two dimensional situation as it is presented, I'd say I'd fire her because I would be unsure of her ability to contain her emotions around my child. I am not a hitter- some people are-if her first reaction was to strike out like this, it would make me nervous.

But in reality, in real life, if your girlfriend was standing in front of me crying and trying to explain herself to me, acknowledging that she knew she did the wrong thing, was very sorry, and if I felt that my child might be able to feel safe and comfortable with her, and I could monitor the situation and keep and eye on things while helping her and the child adjust- if your girlfriend seemed like a good fit- I might try to work it out.

Soz wrote:

Quote:

aidan wrote:
I do not condone hitting children. Anyone who gathers that from what I've said has misunderstood my posts.

There seems to be a disconnect there.

Note, I'm not saying that you are a bad mother -- from what you've posted here you seem to be an exceptionally good mother. I'm just saying that your posts on this particular subject are less than consistent. That means I agree with some of them (hitting children is not something to condone), and disagree with others (hitting children is a response you would plan for in certain circumstances).

There is no disconnect in my mind. I DO NOT CONDONE HITTING CHILDREN.
But I know myself well enough to know that if I saw my child spit in someone's face, I WOULD SWAT THEIR BOTTOM.

That would be my immediate reaction- and I could find SOME bit of efficacy in it, in that I KNOW that I would not be abusive, and with my particular children, it has worked as a deterrent.

And even though I might not be happy with the fact that I did it, I would not be that put out with myself that I would hate myself or could even say that I'd never do it again.

But I'm one of those crazy ass humans whose life is full of inconsistencies.... Laughing

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In other words, you condone it.

Quote:

con·done (kən-dōn') pronunciation
tr.v., -doned, -don·ing, -dones.

To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure. See synonyms at forgive.

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Linkat wrote:

Well I disagree.

Nothing wrong with disagreement. I like to practice it myself. Smile

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If you say so Soz.

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Well, no, that's why I got a dictionary definition. It's not a big deal, but I get impatient with the "I never said that... oh, except for when I said that, but that word didn't mean what the dictionary says it means" type of arguing.

Again, I think you are a good mom from what I know, and I think our disagreement here is pretty narrow. (You: spanking is regrettable but it happens sometimes and it's not a big deal; me: spanking is regrettable and so people should take pains to avoid it, even if it's not the end of the world if it does happen.)

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Jesus, Soz - she's admitting some humanity; some inconsistency. All god's chillen got some, you know. Even you.

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I'm out of left field here, in that I haven't had my feet to the fire with a child. I did get enraged out of my tree with my niece, once - she was about three then - but held back. (Her mother was basically in absencia.)

On the other hand, I threw a beer in a guy's face at a party, kind of a culmination thing, which, of course, I knew I was doing and how stupid it was at the time. So I'm not walking perfection. I also slugged a guy at UCLA med center, in the hallway, him slugging me playfully, but not all that gently, first, and me, slugging back, saying, don't hit me! (and he was just my ride home).

I'll keep coming back to how Boomer has dealt with a very young child well primed in his short life for face spitting and worse, and has calmed him over these years without hitting him. I simply think that is best.

I remember still the one time I was spanked myself. Talking to me would have done as well, but my mother was bereft of how to explain things, so she spanked me. I was seven or eight, and now I'm sixty five. (On the occasion in my childhood, I let the doorman let me into our apartment when I got home from school early. My mother must have been worried re the doorman, and couldn't verbalize that.) Before anyone gets off on my living the life of having a doorman, that was 1/65.
Much is different since, but never mind.

Hitting is not nothing.

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aidan wrote:

If you say so Soz.

if i could try to help you two ladies understand each other a bit better,

it seems to me that aidan clearly does not approve of hitting children using force, but she agrees with hitting a child symbolically, without causing any pain - you can really gently swat a kid's butt causing much less pain than somebody does when shaking hands (auch, some guys overdo it)

so there is a clear difference between hitting a child painfully and hitting a child symbolically - causing just as much pressure as you cause when patting somebody's shoulders

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Yes, Stach- thank you- I just hope this doesn't open up a whole different discussion about how even symbolic violence against children can also be harmful- to which I'd ask do you let your kids watch tv and play video games Laughing

I'm a physical person. I don't even really talk to strangers very often without patting their arm and pointing to direct their attention, that kind of thing. One of my first instincts is always to touch....and I usually do it very lovingly and gently, especially with children. My daughter is fifteen and we still hold hands, not only crossing the street, but walking down the sidewalk. So I will say, that just as it's instinctive for me to reach out to hug someone, on very, very rare occasions (as I've said repeatedly) it was also instinctive for me to express my displeasure or fear for or shock or dismay or surprise at something my child did, with a swat on the bottom. End of story- nobody was hurt or scarred for life- and/but they always knew I cared deeply for them.

Stach- I wanted to also say, that if your girlfriend does feel overwhelmed and as if the parents won't be helpful and the children will be difficult- it's not worth the stress. These au pair situations can turn into nightmares. Maybe she could get a waitressing position, make more money, share a flat with some other girls her age- and actually have fun for the summer.

I guess I'm saying, remind her there are other things she can do, she doesn't have to wait for them to make the decision if this is not the right situation for her- she can make her own decision as to whether to stay or go.

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snood wrote:

Jesus, Soz - she's admitting some humanity; some inconsistency. All god's chillen got some, you know. Even you.

Did I say otherwise?

By the way, she added the last line about inconsistencies in an edit, which I didn't see before submitting my response... by the time I'd seen that, I'd also seen "if you say so," which is just another cop-out.

And I've added qualifiers up the wazoo.

(I'm a physical person, too... I just don't see it as two sides of the same coin.)

(And what is "symbolic violence," exactly? Did your kids think it didn't hurt?)

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At any rate, I realize that this discussion is getting into retread territory -- I'm willing to bow out but I have a hard time doing so when I think that what would be the last word if I fail to respond contains misrepresentations or other problems. Since stach and aidan both seem very ready to move on from this discussion though, I'll go ahead and try to leave it at this, which contains most of what I'd say on the subject.

Dr. William Sears on Spanking Children

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That's a good article, soz. Thanks for posting it.

I just alway try to remember that discipline means "to teach" not "to punish". It is rooted to the same word as disciple.

In that light it was especially interesting to see Dr. Sears discussion of Biblical verse in relation to "rods".

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aidan wrote:

Yes, Stach- thank you- I just hope this doesn't open up a whole different discussion about how even symbolic violence against children can also be harmful- to which I'd ask do you let your kids watch tv and play video games

I'm a physical person. I don't even really talk to strangers very often without patting their arm and pointing to direct their attention, that kind of thing. One of my first instincts is always to touch....and I usually do it very lovingly and gently, especially with children. My daughter is fifteen and we still hold hands, not only crossing the street, but walking down the sidewalk. So I will say, that just as it's instinctive for me to reach out to hug someone, on very, very rare occasions (as I've said repeatedly) it was also instinctive for me to express my displeasure or fear for or shock or dismay or surprise at something my child did, with a swat on the bottom. End of story- nobody was hurt or scarred for life- and/but they always knew I cared deeply for them.

Stach- I wanted to also say, that if your girlfriend does feel overwhelmed and as if the parents won't be helpful and the children will be difficult- it's not worth the stress. These au pair situations can turn into nightmares. Maybe she could get a waitressing position, make more money, share a flat with some other girls her age- and actually have fun for the summer.

I guess I'm saying, remind her there are other things she can do, she doesn't have to wait for them to make the decision if this is not the right situation for her- she can make her own decision as to whether to stay or go.

I guess we found the little detail that caused some misunderstanding, and
I agree there is no point to continue to discuss the meaning of symbolic and painful etc. What you say just makes sense to me.

As for her latest update on her job, she seems to be doing fine - the boy is three and the girl is two, the kids seem to cry a little bit more than usual - at least what seems usual to my gf - and they start at night too and she has to get up and find out what is wrong and soothe them ,but the parents, who are now there too with the grandparents, seem to appreciate
my gf s efforts. The slap was never mentioned and seems to be history.
The kids are beginning to respect her so such things will not happen again, I am sure. She is also learning kids French, things like pee, poop,
kids bottle, stop yelling etc...

I really know that my gf was a great au pair with the family in the Czech Republic and although the kids were cheeky to her from time to time, overally they respect her and like her so I am sure she can be a great au pair even in France.

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kickycan wrote:

So nobody agrees with me that the little bastard deserved a good ass-kickin'? Surprising.

She shuda SUED the bum, for punitive damages !

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Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

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