Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

eoe wrote:

Tell me Soz, what would you do if your little girl spat in someone's face? How would you discipline her?

I was thinking about that too. One thing I was thinking (and I get this from the Sears') is that I consider preventive measures to be discipline, too. As in, there are a bunch of things I would do (and have done) to help ensure that it wouldn't happen in the first place. (Au pairs don't really have that option, I realize.)

If it did happen for some reason though, or if I were an au pair, I would probably do something like:

Grip child's forearms firmly but not painfully, look into child's eyes, and say very seriously and angrily "Do NOT spit."

Lead child to a timeout area and say "That was very serious. You need a timeout."

Give child timeout for whatever amount of time is appropriate (for a 4-year-old, 4 minutes or so).

After that time is up, have a serious conversation about it.

I know that seems lightweight to a lot of people, but it works. I say that not just as a mom but as someone with a master's in early childhood education. It wouldn't work in all circumstances -- timeouts don't work for some kids, for example -- but that would be a baseline response.

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And repeat as needed.

Studies show that kids will repeat behaviors no matter what form of discipline is used.

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boomer and Drew - y'all got kids?

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we should all take into account what slapping someone face means for a 25 year old girl

in our country to slap someone face is what girls and women often do when they encounter an act of arrogance or something similar

for example, if a man touches a woman in an inappropriate way in public, a Czech woman sometimes slaps this face

a typical example is a Czech parent, both female and male, slapping the child's face when the child is extremely arrogant or vulgar

in our country, it is a reaction to a totally inappropriate behavior

at the same time, people in our country, having gradually learned about the liberal _ or are they rather conservative? - ways how to deal with disorderly kids - so parents here gradually - at least the more sophisticated types - gradually refrain from using physical punishment

anyway, slapping a kid's face, will for several decades remain a typical way how to deal with someone's vulgar or arrogant behavior in our country, I am sure parents will use it to deal with extremely arrogant kids and women will keep slapping men in public when touched or talked to in an inappropriate way

but i get your - most of you - point - you care about what happens to kids who experience being slapped

firstly, nobody is injured, that is for sure

secondly, it may be - a typical Czech slap - hurts for two seconds, without any consequences

thirdly, it is a symbol, rather than painful experience

There is a huge difference between parents or au pairs or teachers hitting someone out of hatred or losing control of the situation and physical punishment as something culturally established. Yes, it is gradually being de-established and in most Western countries it is basically illegal in most situations, but the fact is that physical punishment is still wideluy used around the world.

My gif didnt' slap the kid because she is generally agressive and hates the kid, but because in her mind there was a quick chain of things happening based on her previous experience as a girl and later woman growing up in our country - the slap came as the most adequate thing to do in her mind, based on everything she has experienced so far.

This debate is basically about "what happens to children who experience physical punishment". I think there is a huge difference between kids who are really abused by parents - both mentally and physically - and kids who are ocasionally slapped by loving parents. I am afraid that the difference between quality of character or a kid who experienced a few slaps in their childhood and a kid who was never slapped is basically none. This will probably have no consequences when it comes to character development.

Do you think people in the past, say 100 years ago, when kids were growing up being slapped or hit for misbahavior, do you think those people were worse or less happy that the people today who grew up being protected all the time and never hit? I am afraid that we could even find some negative consequences of this kind of peaceful upbringing.
I have no evidence, but all the greatest people I have met or read about, were all treated quite strictly and punished physically when needed, by their parents. Or if they had any parents, which wasn't always the case.
On the other hand, I know nobody great, who would grow up never being hit. If you know somebody like that, more power to them.

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Re: Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

stach wrote:

Do you think an au pair should let the kids torture her?

No I don't think so; I also don't think spitting is torture. This kid was testing out its limits. Your girlfriend was right to show it that spitting into ones face is beyond the limit. As others pointed out, there are better ways of showing limits than slapping the child. Nevertheless, in my personal opinion, this slap was permissible, even if it wasn't wise. Nobody can demand perfection from an au pair -- if the parents wanted quality nannying, they should have paid for a professional.

Apart from this, I agree with Setanta; it would be a good idea if your girlfriend took the initiative and talked to the parents before the kid does.

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snood wrote:

boomer and Drew - y'all got kids?

Yep. We both do.

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boomerang wrote:

I have to ask -- why are the grandparents now in charge of the kids?

I ask this because my son, Mo, spent the first two years of his life in a home where adults spitting at each other, and worse, was not uncommon.

When he first came here he would spit, and worse, at me.

I suppose I could have reinforced the idea of disrespect by hitting, slapping, or spitting at him but I'm really glad I didn't. I have a really hard time with the idea that the way to teach someone respect is by not respecting them.

Wny are the grandparents in charge - I guess the family has 4 children, two babies and two between 3 and 5. So the mother prolly wants to take some rest looking after the babies while the bigger kids will spend the summer in the country with their grandparents and an au pair

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wtf is an au pair? is that french for something?

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Re: Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

Thomas wrote:

stach wrote:
Do you think an au pair should let the kids torture her?

No I don't think so; I also don't think spitting is torture. This kid was testing out its limits. Your girlfriend was right to show it that spitting into ones face is beyond the limit. As others pointed out, there are better ways of showing limits than slapping the child. Nevertheless, in my personal opinion, this slap was permissible, even if it wasn't wise. Nobody can demand perfection from an au pair -- if the parents wanted quality nannying, they should have paid for a professional.

Apart from this, I agree with Setanta; it would be a good idea if your girlfriend took the initiative and talked to the parents before the kid does.

I think your view is very wise. I have to ask my girlfriend what happened about the slap, I am waiting for her email to tell me what happened and if anyone talked about it later.

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OGIONIK wrote:

wtf is an au pair? is that french for something?

it means literally "with the couple" so it is a girl or a boy, or now we would say a young woman or a young man, who live with a couple - parents - and help them look after the kids, sometimes also with housework, depends on the agreement

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stach wrote:

OGIONIK wrote:
wtf is an au pair? is that french for something?

it means literally "with the couple" so it is a girl or a boy, or now we would say a young woman or a young man, who live with a couple - parents - and help them look after the kids, sometimes also with housework, depends on the agreement

It means literally "on par" or "equal to".

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stach wrote:

in our country, it is a reaction to a totally inappropriate behavior

I see nothing wrong with that, but your girlfriend chose to work in France. That makes it her responsibility to adapt to French customs. I know that's easier said than done though; I've committed my own share of intercultural screw-ups with Americans.

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IT is really a messy word we are living in - look at this paradox,
we arediscussing how more or less barbaric it is to slap a kid in his face

A few days ago I had a conversation with my American colleague, and with her I don't use the four letter words, but I got into this nice informal talk and I became more spontaneous and said the f word, and she was shocked and covered her face as if in shame and said: My grandmother would SLAP you!

It is a pretty nice sweet mess of values we are living in, I guess.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

stach wrote:
OGIONIK wrote:
wtf is an au pair? is that french for something?

it means literally "with the couple" so it is a girl or a boy, or now we would say a young woman or a young man, who live with a couple - parents - and help them look after the kids, sometimes also with housework, depends on the agreement

It means literally "on par" or "equal to".

oh really? So it is different from what I thought. Equal to doesn't make much sense cuz au pairs are employed by the people so they are not equal to them.

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Thomas wrote:

stach wrote:
in our country, it is a reaction to a totally inappropriate behavior

I see nothing wrong with that, but your girlfriend chose to work in France. That makes it her responsibility to adapt to French customs. I know that's easier said than done though; I've committed my own share of intercultural screw-ups with Americans.

I am sure that she knows slapping is really not the way kids are treated in France, she is culturally quite sensitive, but that was her no-reason, automatic reaction, not something she would agree with.

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stach wrote:

A few days ago I had a conversation with my American colleague, and with her I don't use the four letter words, but I got into this nice informal talk and I became more spontaneous and said the f word, and she was shocked and covered her face as if in shame and said: My grandmother would SLAP you!

With my great aunt, you'd be chewing on a bar of soap for about a minute. Laughing

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stach wrote:

oh really? So it is different from what I thought. Equal to doesn't make much sense cuz au pairs are employed by the people so they are not equal to them.

I was only giving the literal translation (you can look that up in any dictionary).

I suppose, the original idea is that they are "equal" in caring for/teachin the children and doing some housework to the parents.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

It means literally "on par" or "equal to".

The original idea is that the young person lives with the foreign family pretty much as a house guest would. She (it's usually a she) helps in the household a little, and return her hosts give her some pocket money. But even so, au pairs are not professionals, and cannot reasonably be held to professional standards.

stach wrote:

I am sure that she knows slapping is really not the way kids are treated in France, she is culturally quite sensitive, but that was her no-reason, automatic reaction, not something she would agree with.

I understand that. And in this light, I personally have no problem with her reaction.

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eoe wrote:

stach wrote:
A few days ago I had a conversation with my American colleague, and with her I don't use the four letter words, but I got into this nice informal talk and I became more spontaneous and said the f word, and she was shocked and covered her face as if in shame and said: My grandmother would SLAP you!

With my great aunt, you'd be chewing on a bar of soap for about a minute.

i don't think that would be healthy or legal, for that matter LOL

anyway, **** I am going off line now, thanks for sharing

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Frankly, my only comment on having slapped this creep is that i probably would have knocked the little perisher into the middle of next week.

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Kids spitting in your face - ethics of upbringing

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